HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sabres drafting ineptitude

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-26-2003, 02:24 PM
  #1
Ron C.
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Ron C.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Amherst, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 2,421
vCash: 500
Sabres drafting ineptitude

With the exception of last year's selection of Vanek (a large enough no-brainer for even Regier and Luce not to screw up), the Sabres have been woeful in their first round picks. Our picks often have more to do with size and retaining rights than hockey ability. We try to "get bigger" (Rasmussen,Primeau) with lesser consideration given to pure ability.

Now, be honest. Who didn't groan when the Sabres passed up Eminger to select Ballard? Who didn't scratch your head when the name Kriukov was heard instead of Orpik or Frolov. The Sabres seem to overthink drafts (or potential trades) to the point of paralysis or at least ineptitude. It makes you want to buy them a copy of Hockey News' draft guide and tell them not to deviate from the collective mock draft.

A team like Buffalo needs to strike it rich in the draft to get that one franchise player to build around. Not every team can be so lucky, but you also have to make your own luck once in a while. A player whose batting average in the first round consists of Ballard,Kriukov, Novotny,Heisten,Kalinin, Noronen, Rasmussen, McKee, Primeau, Cooper, Boucher, May and Haller shouldn't stay in the big leagues for 17 years as Don Luce has done.

Ron C. is offline  
Old
12-26-2003, 07:09 PM
  #2
Chainshot
Global Moderator
Give 'em Enough Rope
 
Chainshot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Costa Rica
Country: Costa Rica
Posts: 57,007
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron C.
With the exception of last year's selection of Vanek (a large enough no-brainer for even Regier and Luce not to screw up), the Sabres have been woeful in their first round picks. Our picks often have more to do with size and retaining rights than hockey ability. We try to "get bigger" (Rasmussen,Primeau) with lesser consideration given to pure ability.

Now, be honest. Who didn't groan when the Sabres passed up Eminger to select Ballard? Who didn't scratch your head when the name Kriukov was heard instead of Orpik or Frolov. The Sabres seem to overthink drafts (or potential trades) to the point of paralysis or at least ineptitude. It makes you want to buy them a copy of Hockey News' draft guide and tell them not to deviate from the collective mock draft.

A team like Buffalo needs to strike it rich in the draft to get that one franchise player to build around. Not every team can be so lucky, but you also have to make your own luck once in a while. A player whose batting average in the first round consists of Ballard,Kriukov, Novotny,Heisten,Kalinin, Noronen, Rasmussen, McKee, Primeau, Cooper, Boucher, May and Haller shouldn't stay in the big leagues for 17 years as Don Luce has done.
You're preaching to the choir where I am concern. It's not so much the lack of talent that is so bothersome, but the disregard they seem to hold talented players coming out of junior. As Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, and other talented junior scorers have shown, defense can be learned but God-given ability is sometimes something one is born with.

Chainshot is offline  
Old
12-26-2003, 10:03 PM
  #3
SuperNintendoChalmrs
Registered User
 
SuperNintendoChalmrs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 3,555
vCash: 500
Some of these drafts were talent-poor.....take a view of the 1st couple rounds of 1994, 96 and 97. Not much to shout home about.....

Other drafts, the Sabres simply fouled up.....99, 00 and 91-93 come to mind.

SuperNintendoChalmrs is offline  
Old
12-27-2003, 08:10 AM
  #4
Takeo
Registered User
 
Takeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 19,026
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron C.
With the exception of last year's selection of Vanek (a large enough no-brainer for even Regier and Luce not to screw up), the Sabres have been woeful in their first round picks. Our picks often have more to do with size and retaining rights than hockey ability. We try to "get bigger" (Rasmussen,Primeau) with lesser consideration given to pure ability.

Now, be honest. Who didn't groan when the Sabres passed up Eminger to select Ballard? Who didn't scratch your head when the name Kriukov was heard instead of Orpik or Frolov. The Sabres seem to overthink drafts (or potential trades) to the point of paralysis or at least ineptitude. It makes you want to buy them a copy of Hockey News' draft guide and tell them not to deviate from the collective mock draft.

A team like Buffalo needs to strike it rich in the draft to get that one franchise player to build around. Not every team can be so lucky, but you also have to make your own luck once in a while. A player whose batting average in the first round consists of Ballard,Kriukov, Novotny,Heisten,Kalinin, Noronen, Rasmussen, McKee, Primeau, Cooper, Boucher, May and Haller shouldn't stay in the big leagues for 17 years as Don Luce has done.
Right on the money! Good post.

Takeo is offline  
Old
12-27-2003, 08:35 AM
  #5
ajsonor
Registered User
 
ajsonor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Orlando, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,458
vCash: 500
When you look back at the Rasmussen draft, Buffalo has acquired the two best offensive players from that first round in Dumont and Briere. Rasmussen, as hard as it is to admit, still is a fulltime NHLer, and there were only a handfull to come out of that first round.

I wouldn't be opposed to a shake up in the scouting department, but some of the players mentioned are still rated very high as prospects. I didn't like dealing Ballard, and the Hockey News recently spotlighted him as the Avs best prospect, and they feel he can be a Derek Morris-type player. He was the obvious replacement for Zhitnik when he was drafted, and now we're without one.

ajsonor is offline  
Old
12-27-2003, 08:48 AM
  #6
Puddy
Registered User
 
Puddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: parts unknown
Country: Canada
Posts: 365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Right on the money! Good post.
Agreed. And there is a draft related article dated 12-27 at www.sabrefans.com that is worth reading. There are a lot of hits and misses in the history of this franchise, but a lot of what I have read about the last 2 drafts has been mostly positive. But we have to remember that it is not just the draft, but the entire organization that contributes to the development of the player. If Rochester hasn't provided us with a scorer capable of hitting 30 goals in the NHL, than perhaps we should look at what is going on there.
The problem with the Sabres is that the team lacks an identity. We were a hard working team that lacked skill, and then became a more skilled team that lacked intensity. We are getting killed this season because there is a welcome mat in front of our net. Collectively, our trapping system isn't working. Changing the coach would be a short term fix. Until everyone gets on the same page, we will be a team on the bubble, unable to attract 12,000 fans to a game, unable to do anything but compete for that final playoff spot. If you were a player in the NHL, why would you want to come to Buffalo? Who would you be excited to play with? Satan? Vanek? Derek Roy? We need to get better fast, which is easier said than done. But it all starts with the Entry Draft.

Puddy is offline  
Old
12-27-2003, 01:26 PM
  #7
SonOfWade
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 78
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddy
Agreed. And there is a draft related article dated 12-27 at www.sabrefans.com that is worth reading.
Very good article. Then again, anything of Mr. Doran's is worth reading, as he is an excellent writer and reporter ... and he still owes me a beer.

SonOfWade is offline  
Old
12-27-2003, 10:19 PM
  #8
SuperNintendoChalmrs
Registered User
 
SuperNintendoChalmrs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 3,555
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfWade
Very good article. Then again, anything of Mr. Doran's is worth reading, as he is an excellent writer and reporter ... and he still owes me a beer.
I think he said something to me about March 7th, 2004, pertaining to the beer issue.


SuperNintendoChalmrs is offline  
Old
12-28-2003, 08:22 AM
  #9
SabresRule
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,314
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to SabresRule
we suck normally. dunno why.

SabresRule is offline  
Old
12-28-2003, 03:45 PM
  #10
Buffaloed
Administrator
Webmaster
 
Buffaloed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 24,957
vCash: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot
You're preaching to the choir where I am concern. It's not so much the lack of talent that is so bothersome, but the disregard they seem to hold talented players coming out of junior. As Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, and other talented junior scorers have shown, defense can be learned but God-given ability is sometimes something one is born with.
The implication you're making is that if they changed their philosophy they'd draft better. I think that's being too kind. Regier has drafted a lot of pure talents (Milley, Kristek, Bartovic, Zigomanis, DiCaire) that haven't panned out. I have to admit, I thought these were great picks that would bode well for the Sabres offense, but it doesn't look like any of them will do much in the NHL. It looks to me like our scouting staff will be incompetent regardless of what philosophy Regier employs. Isn't it comforting to know that Zigomanis wasn't such a great loss after all?

Buffaloed is offline  
Old
12-28-2003, 05:20 PM
  #11
Chainshot
Global Moderator
Give 'em Enough Rope
 
Chainshot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Costa Rica
Country: Costa Rica
Posts: 57,007
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
The implication you're making is that if they changed their philosophy they'd draft better. I think that's being too kind. Regier has drafted a lot of pure talents (Milley, Kristek, Bartovic, Zigomanis, DiCaire) that haven't panned out. I have to admit, I thought these were great picks that would bode well for the Sabres offense, but it doesn't look like any of them will do much in the NHL. It looks to me like our scouting staff will be incompetent regardless of what philosophy Regier employs. Isn't it comforting to know that Zigomanis wasn't such a great loss after all?
Part of it is in the assessment of talent and part of it is also in the development (or nearly total lack of) said same. Sticking with Cunneyworth again this year, just like the status quo up above, is maddening. Repeatedly we've seen players slumber through (or worse) their tenure with the Amerks, only to see glimpses of seemingly different players upon reaching the NHL. Randy's a good guy and all that sort of meaningless backslapping, but he doesn't exactly make me think he's going to turn a scoring junior into a scoring pro who can also play in his own zone----he's going to crank out more checkers who don't score, regardless of their talent at other levels.

Chainshot is offline  
Old
12-28-2003, 06:06 PM
  #12
eSabre
Registered User
 
eSabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 6,477
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to eSabre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron C.
With the exception of last year's selection of Vanek (a large enough no-brainer for even Regier and Luce not to screw up), the Sabres have been woeful in their first round picks. Our picks often have more to do with size and retaining rights than hockey ability. We try to "get bigger" (Rasmussen,Primeau) with lesser consideration given to pure ability.

Now, be honest. Who didn't groan when the Sabres passed up Eminger to select Ballard? Who didn't scratch your head when the name Kriukov was heard instead of Orpik or Frolov. The Sabres seem to overthink drafts (or potential trades) to the point of paralysis or at least ineptitude. It makes you want to buy them a copy of Hockey News' draft guide and tell them not to deviate from the collective mock draft.

A team like Buffalo needs to strike it rich in the draft to get that one franchise player to build around. Not every team can be so lucky, but you also have to make your own luck once in a while. A player whose batting average in the first round consists of Ballard,Kriukov, Novotny,Heisten,Kalinin, Noronen, Rasmussen, McKee, Primeau, Cooper, Boucher, May and Haller shouldn't stay in the big leagues for 17 years as Don Luce has done.
Don't forget to add Biron and Paille to that list. They were first rounders as far as I know.

eSabre is offline  
Old
12-28-2003, 06:35 PM
  #13
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,161
vCash: 500
Check out my thread on the WJC thread on this board to see what I think about Paille.

As for the Sabres drafting, yes it's not good, but it's not the worst in the league either. I'm no Vanek fan, but I believe that if for nothing else, the Sabres are good at finding late-round gems such as Tallinder (or was it Kallinen, I forgot) and Kotalik.

Mizral is offline  
Old
12-29-2003, 05:52 PM
  #14
David A. Rainer
Registered User
 
David A. Rainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Huntington Beach
Country: Italy
Posts: 7,293
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to David A. Rainer
I don't know how they would rank recently (especially because it is too early to tell for the last couple of years), but the Sabres have traditionally been one of the better drafting teams. From their inception up until about 1995 they produced more and better players from their drafts than most other teams

__________________
Saxon Sports Information and Research

Last edited by David A. Rainer: 12-29-2003 at 05:58 PM.
David A. Rainer is offline  
Old
12-29-2003, 06:19 PM
  #15
Buffaloed
Administrator
Webmaster
 
Buffaloed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 24,957
vCash: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathFromAbove
I don't know how they would rank recently (especially because it is too early to tell for the last couple of years), but the Sabres have traditionally been one of the better drafting teams. From their inception up until about 1995 they produced more and better players from their drafts than most other teams
I think the fans frustrations are more about the quality rather than the quantity of Sabres drafts picks who have plaged in the NHL. They're good at drafting depth, but the quality leaves much to be desired. The Sabres drafts haven't produced a first line forward since 1988 (Alexander Mogilny) and Calle Johansson (1985) is the last dman they picked that could be considered a #1. One would think that just by sheer luck they'd have drafted 1 or 2 players in the last 15 years that could serve as franchise cornerstones.

Buffaloed is offline  
Old
12-29-2003, 10:06 PM
  #16
David A. Rainer
Registered User
 
David A. Rainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Huntington Beach
Country: Italy
Posts: 7,293
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to David A. Rainer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I think the fans frustrations are more about the quality rather than the quantity of Sabres drafts picks who have plaged in the NHL. They're good at drafting depth, but the quality leaves much to be desired. The Sabres drafts haven't produced a first line forward since 1988 (Alexander Mogilny) and Calle Johansson (1985) is the last dman they picked that could be considered a #1. One would think that just by sheer luck they'd have drafted 1 or 2 players in the last 15 years that could serve as franchise cornerstones.
Between 1970 and 1995, only 3 teams have produced more 1000 game players than Buffalo's 7: Montreal (14), Chicago (9), and Toronto (8). They may not be drafting the Hall of Famers you want, but they are definitely drafting players that seem to be able to stay in the league a long time.

If you give me 1 day, I can break down all the percentages and probabilities regarding Buffalo picks for the years spanning 1970-1995. I started this project (recording the amount of games played by every draft pick for every team) about a year ago and was surprised to find Buffalo at or near the top in almost every success category I looked at regarding the draft. Some Sabres fans might be upset over the quality of their recent drafts, but they do have a tradition of exceptional drafting when compared to the rest of the league. But show me one fan who is completely happy over their team's drafting. Hell, the Kings have had tremendous drafts the last couple of years and some fans want to string Dave Taylor up for drafting Dave Steckel.

David A. Rainer is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.