if we put all this money into schneider it keeps us with basically the same defense even if markie leaves . and there wont be one guy over 200 lbs on it . has any team ever cupped with so small a D unit . with basically no one to bull doze the crease to give the goalie space / sight lines .
Yeah, obviously the teams' defensemen were a huge problem in 06-07. I can completely understand why people want to radically remake the roster at that position.
Yeah, obviously the teams' defensemen were a huge problem in 06-07. I can completely understand why people want to radically remake the roster at that position.
Wasn't a problem and it only becomes a problem in '07-'08 if you believe that Schneider's defense (not offense, defense) cannot be replaced by anyone else on the market for less than 5m a year.
His defense can definitely be replaced for less than 5. I mean I think Lilja is better defensively than Schneider. But who are your point men for both PP units?
Or who are two other ones--Lidstrom can really play the full PP on the point.
His defense can definitely be replaced for less than 5. I mean I think Lilja is better defensively than Schneider. But who are your point men for both PP units?
Or who are two other ones--Lidstrom can really play the full PP on the point.
Well considering that I think it would be a waste to put Schneider on the 2nd unit PP and at the same time it was a waste to have him on the 1st unit PP I can't really answer the question without knowing who would fill one of Schneider's or Markov's slot. I'd say Lidstrom - Kronwall for the 1st unit and Lidstrom/Lebda - Samuelsson/Quincey(or whoever the UFA is) on the 2nd one. Hell, stick Z on the point, he seemed to do well when we were going with 4 forwards against Anaheim. I believe the problem with Schneider there is that the PP goes through him too much and I understand why they do it, but the PP needs to go through Z/Datsyuk/Lidstrom more. Sometimes eliminating options is a good remedy for success.
Wasn't a problem and it only becomes a problem in '07-'08 if you believe that Schneider's defense (not offense, defense) cannot be replaced by anyone else on the market for less than 5m a year.
I think you've lost your mind, Heaton. Detroit's a puck-possession/control/moving team. Teams like that require puck control/possession/moving defensemen. Sticking some one-way stiff like Karlis Skrastins back there effectively neuters the teams' ability to effectively play that style because by and large exceptional defensive defensemen are less than exceptional puck handlers. The ones that do both at an above average level will get at least 4 mil a year from teams. Now, that's not to say there isn't a place for one-way defensive defensemen on a club like Detroit's, but each of the top 2 pairings needs to have at least one exceptional puck handler on it. At least. Otherwise we get an Ottawa (or even Detroit) v. Ducks situation and a decent forecheck just obliterates offensive flow because the team can't consistently get a clean possession out of their brick-handed dmen and end up working so hard just to get the puck clear that they become infinitely easier to defend.
Of course the team could find someone to play better 'defense' (as in, the act of defending an opponent who carries the puck) for rather less than what Schneider is alleged to be asking for, but that entirely neglects to consider the greater part of the Wings style, namely preventing the team from possessing the puck in the first place by extending their own offensive control and attacking with crisp passes out of the zone.
Even setting that whole argument aside for a moment... how can you completely dismiss Schneider's offensive contribution? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea how you can take these positions. It's completely baffling to me. Help me understand why you think the way you do here. Schneider's a 50+ point guy for the Wings from the blueline. From the Bowman era forward (13 seasons) here's your list of Wings dmen other than Lidstrom who've scored 50 or more points in a season: Coffey, Murphy, and Schneider. That's it, that's the list... and there you are wizzing all over Schneider's offense like that kind of secondary production is something Detroit can just replace. In the years before Schneider's full time arrival here are the point totals of the #2 scoring dman on the team: 2001, 25 (Dandenault). 2002, 39 (Chelios), 2003, 23 (Woolley), 2004, 23 (Chelios). Lidstrom's 37, ferchristssake... do you want him to have to score 90% of the teams' defensive points?
I think you've lost your mind, Heaton. Detroit's a puck-possession/control/moving team. Teams like that require puck control/possession/moving defensemen. Sticking some one-way stiff like Karlis Skrastins back there effectively neuters the teams' ability to effectively play that style because by and large exceptional defensive defensemen are less than exceptional puck handlers. The ones that do both at an above average level will get at least 4 mil a year from teams. Now, that's not to say there isn't a place for one-way defensive defensemen on a club like Detroit's, but each of the top 2 pairings needs to have at least one exceptional puck handler on it. At least. Otherwise we get an Ottawa (or even Detroit) v. Ducks situation and a decent forecheck just obliterates offensive flow because the team can't consistently get a clean possession out of their brick-handed dmen and end up working so hard just to get the puck clear that they become infinitely easier to defend.
Of course the team could find someone to play better 'defense' (as in, the act of defending an opponent who carries the puck) for rather less than what Schneider is alleged to be asking for, but that entirely neglects to consider the greater part of the Wings style, namely preventing the team from possessing the puck in the first place by extending their own offensive control and attacking with crisp passes out of the zone.
Even setting that whole argument aside for a moment... how can you completely dismiss Schneider's offensive contribution? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea how you can take these positions. It's completely baffling to me. Help me understand why you think the way you do here. Schneider's a 50+ point guy for the Wings from the blueline. From the Bowman era forward (13 seasons) here's your list of Wings dmen other than Lidstrom who've scored 50 or more points in a season: Coffey, Murphy, and Schneider. That's it, that's the list... and there you are wizzing all over Schneider's offense like that kind of secondary production is something Detroit can just replace. In the years before Schneider's full time arrival here are the point totals of the #2 scoring dman on the team: 2001, 25 (Dandenault). 2002, 39 (Chelios), 2003, 23 (Woolley), 2004, 23 (Chelios).
We are praying you don't resign him. While his 5 million+ asking price is steep, I agree that his contributions to a puck procession team should not be overlooked. Most of his listed negatives in this thread will be seen as positives on the Sharks (shoots too much, all PP plays run through him, etc).
I think you've lost your mind, Heaton. Detroit's a puck-possession/control/moving team. Teams like that require puck control/possession/moving defensemen. Sticking some one-way stiff like Karlis Skrastins back there effectively neuters the teams' ability to effectively play that style because by and large exceptional defensive defensemen are less than exceptional puck handlers. The ones that do both at an above average level will get at least 4 mil a year from teams. Now, that's not to say there isn't a place for one-way defensive defensemen on a club like Detroit's, but each of the top 2 pairings needs to have at least one exceptional puck handler on it. At least. Otherwise we get an Ottawa (or even Detroit) v. Ducks situation and a decent forecheck just obliterates offensive flow because the team can't consistently get a clean possession out of their brick-handed dmen and end up working so hard just to get the puck clear that they become infinitely easier to defend.
Of course the team could find someone to play better 'defense' (as in, the act of defending an opponent who carries the puck) for rather less than what Schneider is alleged to be asking for, but that entirely neglects to consider the greater part of the Wings style, namely preventing the team from possessing the puck in the first place by extending their own offensive control and attacking with crisp passes out of the zone.
Even setting that whole argument aside for a moment... how can you completely dismiss Schneider's offensive contribution? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea how you can take these positions. It's completely baffling to me. Help me understand why you think the way you do here. Schneider's a 50+ point guy for the Wings from the blueline. From the Bowman era forward (13 seasons) here's your list of Wings dmen other than Lidstrom who've scored 50 or more points in a season: Coffey, Murphy, and Schneider. That's it, that's the list... and there you are wizzing all over Schneider's offense like that kind of secondary production is something Detroit can just replace. In the years before Schneider's full time arrival here are the point totals of the #2 scoring dman on the team: 2001, 25 (Dandenault). 2002, 39 (Chelios), 2003, 23 (Woolley), 2004, 23 (Chelios). Lidstrom's 37, ferchristssake... do you want him to have to score 90% of the teams' defensive points?
Kronwall and Kindl. Combined they'll score as much, be paid less, and be as old as Schneider.
Kronwall and Kindl. Combined they'll score as much, be paid less, and be as old as Schneider.
Kindl's a complete NHL unknown. Throwing him into the top 4 makes just slightly more sense than throwing Hudler into the top 6... and only because that makes next to no sense at all. Also, until I see otherwise I'd like a little insurance on Kronwall's ability to play out a season. Seriously, write down what your defensive pairings look like if Kronwall or Chelios or any of the dmen get hurt long term. Detroit has to sign a top 4 guy with offensive ability in the offseason. Has to. Lidstrom-Kronwall (if it goes that way) is fine. What's the second pairing sans a UFA... Kindl-Lebda? Really, doctor? What if Kindl's not ready... now it's Lilja/Quincey/Meech/Chelios-Lebda? Yeah. Woo. I'm sure Filppula will be just tickled to have those guys behind him while he's trying to center Samuelsson and Grigorenko (or whoever). Heck, let's just go back to the days of having Lilja or Dandenault on the top pairing with Lidstrom. Those were great.
Just save Valteri the time and have someone hit him with a zamboni in the first practice, because outlet passes from pairings like that are going to be few, far between, and often deadly to take.
And? Lots of rookies are complete NHL unknowns. Yet many still thrive.
I agree that a proven NHL caliber top 4 guy needs to be brought in (I don't agree that it has to be an offensively oriented one). Beyond that we should be good to go with what we have. If not? Schneider in no way tips that scale.
Detroit's staff BETTER have confidence in him to be a top-4 guy and on the point.
Between Kindl & Kronwall I think our defense would be fine.
Kindl was a top10 prospect in his draft, he's been in juniors for 3 years. Some of you guys are SO scared of prospects coming to the Wings without 14 years in the AHL. It really just frightens you guys to death.
Kindl almost made the team last year from camp, that almost cements the fact he should be on the team this year.
+ Kindl
- Schneider
=Cap space for another roster palyer(takes up slack from Schneider gone)
= equal offense from Kronwall & Kindl's increased TOI
To you he is. He almost made the team out of camp as a 19 year old last year. He's not an unknown. The coaching staff and Holland, Nill, etc. know what they can expect from him. Showing confidence in young players does a world of good, for them and the team. It's too bad that players like Hudler were badly mishandled by the team.
and there you are wizzing all over Schneider's offense like that kind of secondary production is something Detroit can just replace. In the years before Schneider's full time arrival here are the point totals of the #2 scoring dman on the team: 2001, 25 (Dandenault). 2002, 39 (Chelios), 2003, 23 (Woolley), 2004, 23 (Chelios). Lidstrom's 37, ferchristssake... do you want him to have to score 90% of the teams' defensive points?
I don't believe Schneider's 50+ points a year are imperative to Detroit's success. Schneider knows he can make 6m+ on the open market, I don't want to be stringed to him for 2 years making that much money if we could find someone who fits in our team, is more defensively for half the price. If that player is from within? Fantastic. If not, I trust our staff can find someone.
And to address that #2 in defenseman scoring issue and the exclammation about Nick potentially scoring 90% of the blueline's points... So what? Just what does it matter if Lidstrom DOES score 90% of the blueline's points (not that I think it would ever happen, even 50% would be a stretch)? So long as the team as a whole is scoring and/or defending to the point the margin is in our favor (the money earmarked for Schneider WILL get spent on someone or two) who cares how it happens and who does it?
Schneider is good offensive blueliner that is mediocre at best in every other facet of the game. The three years he's had his flaws masked by our system have been the three best of his career. That should not earn him a raise. We make him, not vice versa. If he wants to cash in for "his" new found success, I hope he likes getting paid more than he likes being somewhat successful.
I'm with HD... I dont see how you can say were a better team when you subtract 50 points from it...
Your option is "Lets try out Kindl and Kronwall and hope they can do the same" Even though they never proven they could... If two players getting 25 points each is just as good as one getting 50.. your still losing points that way...
I swear you guys just fall in love with potential, instead of proven results. Your just like old school scouts... If you contend for the cup theres gotta be more than hope there has got to be statistical precidence.
Its similar to everyone falling in love with Hudler. He scores two goals against the Preds and everyone shouts "he can be a top 6!!" I gotta see more than that. And we have to have more than that to return the WCF again, or further.
And? Lots of rookies are complete NHL unknowns. Yet many still thrive.
And many more are spectacularly thrive-less.
Quote:
I agree that a proven NHL caliber top 4 guy needs to be brought in (I don't agree that it has to be an offensively oriented one). Beyond that we should be good to go with what we have. If not? Schneider in no way tips that scale.
My main concerns with regards to the situation at D is that whoever comes in has the ability to make the passes and control the puck which Detroit's system requires. More often than not guys who are called 'defensive defensemen' aren't skilled enough to make those plays. Sure, there are exceptions (like Chelios or Stevens), but those were also guys who at one point in their career were pretty powerful offensive contributors, too.
Now don't get me wrong, losing Schneider's offense from the blue line would be a setback, but that isn't my primary concern.
So long as the team as a whole is scoring and/or defending to the point the margin is in our favor (the money earmarked for Schneider WILL get spent on someone or two) who cares how it happens and who does it?
Because it's an issue of depth, Nick. I get that Lidstrom is your namesake... but he's also 37. Are you comfortable esentially pinning the entire season on his ability to be absolutely fantastic? Heck, considering the detritus in the Central it won't matter till the playoffs, but still.
What if, heaven forfend, Lidstrom's play slips a notch? What then? I mean, the guy is 37... will he be able to play like a Norris winner infinitely? If Detroit lets the only other legit top pairing offensive presence on their roster go without replacing him, all the eggs are in Lidstrom's basket.
Quote:
Schneider is good offensive blueliner that is mediocre at best in every other facet of the game. The three years he's had his flaws masked by our system have been the three best of his career. That should not earn him a raise. We make him, not vice versa. If he wants to cash in for "his" new found success, I hope he likes getting paid more than he likes being somewhat successful.
And I hope you like having a terribly thin defensive corps. Detroit cannot let Schneider go without replacing him with a similarly capable player, and that's not Kindl, Quincey, Meech, Kronwall or Lebda.
I don't believe Schneider's 50+ points a year are imperative to Detroit's success.
There's more to his game than just points though, Heaton. This is where I think you're losing me. Schneider's very good with the puck, makes smart passes and decisions on the ice, scores at a very high rate at his position, and plays average defense. Seriously, do you know how freaking rare that is?
I understand that people always want to improve the team... but yeesh. Positional one on one defense is all well and good, but it's far from being the most important thing Detroit needs from it's dmen, due to the unique style of play they employ.
Quote:
Schneider knows he can make 6m+ on the open market, I don't want to be stringed to him for 2 years making that much money if we could find someone who fits in our team, is more defensively for half the price.
Oh, that's all then? Half the price, better on defense, fits in with the team strategy. Triple check.
Quote:
If that player is from within? Fantastic. If not, I trust our staff can find someone.
Unless the person they find is Schneider, at which point you will deride the organization for being idiots.
Let me put your mind at rest: Detroit's not going to give Schnieder 6+ for 2 years. They aren't going to sign him for 3 years at 5. At worst this will be two years at 5... and I suspect it will be more like 5.5 for one year. Schneider doesn't want to sign a big contract and have to be the 30 minute a game #1 on a non-playoff team.
Unless the person they find is Schneider, at which point you will deride the organization for being idiots.
I will? I don't recall ever calling the organization idiots about anything. I may not agree with some of the moves, but I believe they always a have a reason in everything they do.
Look. I'm not totally against bringing back Schneider, I think we could potentially have just as strong as a defense while upgrading our team upfront if Schneider opts to test the FA market.
He makes smart decisions with the puck in the neutral zone and in the offensive zone but he's prone to boneheaded mistakes in the defensive zone. Sure, all defensemen make those mistakes but when you're average defensively already as you pointed out you need to be smarter with the puck and at age 38 he's not going to be getting any better.
Since you seem more concerned about Schneider's first pass than his offense, you don't think there will be any cheaper defensemen on the market better than Schneider defensively and who can make a good first pass? Markov fit in just fine.
Quote:
Schneider doesn't want to sign a big contract and have to be the 30 minute a game #1 on a non-playoff team.
Since you ragged on me during that Hasek thread, how the hell do you know that Schneider doesn't just want to get as much $$ as he can on whatever team he can get? He already has won a Stanley Cup, it's not like he's in a Ray Bourque situation. As yes, it's a slightly different situation, but it all has to do about $$, right?
Many 1st and 2nd round defensemen are able to step in and make an immediate impact. Suter, Weber, Phaneuf, Seabrook, Meszaros, Vlasic, Carle, Pitkanan ect...
Kindl could've made the team last year and that doesn't happen, not on this team. So you know he's close.
