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Old
06-15-2007, 05:47 PM
  #51
DEATHtrap
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Kelly has been given a bad wrap for his offence. He hanldes the puck well, is strong on his skates and has decent vision. His hot has been critized for not being a marksmen, but Kelly's (11.5) shooting percentage on season is fairly decent being ahead of Fisher(11.4) and not far behind Alfie(12.1).

As been previously said, Kelly produces, because of his hockey smarts that can mitigate any lack of talent

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06-15-2007, 05:57 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
Stick two first line wingers with Fisher and of course he'd score goals. Anyone would. I'd bet Kelly would score quite a bit with them too. Hell, I'd probably score 20 goals at least playing with those two. That's just a poor example because it's unrealistic and anyone's goal totals would skyrocket with two elite playmakers on their line.
Exactly. If I recall correctly, Kelly was producing at an unheard-of pace (for him) this year when he filled in for Spezza between Heatley and Alfie. And while he was playing a very sound game that complemented both those players, Alfie and Heatley were playing fantastic hockey at the time. Kelly doesn't produce like that under normal circumstances. Generally, neither does Fisher.

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06-15-2007, 07:13 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
Kelly apparently doesn't have the talent, but he seems to improve every year he plays. He scored 15 goals this year with more or less 3rd line ice time, outside of his short stint with Spezza and Heatley, and 0 PP time. He's not the most talented player, but he's probably the smartest forward on the team and that's how he manages to stick around and produce.

I meant that he doesn't have the talent that Fisher has. He is a very smart hockey player but i'm just saying that Fisher is better. That's what the argument between me and Fuhr was about...

Fisher doesn't create offense himself a whole lot. Up until Alfredsson was put on that line in January or February, it didn't look like Fisher would hit 20 goals at all. The stretch from Feb. 10 to Feb. 22 when Alfie was moved to his line and Fisher scored in 5 straight games saved what could have been a sub-par offensive season. He needs someone to get him the puck because he isn't going to create it himself

I never talked about Fish creating offense on his own. Fuhr was talking about if Fisher leaves, and whatever and then Kelly would have the permanent 3rd line spot. Kelly wouldn't be able to produce with Schaefer and Saprykin at the pace Fisher was with his usual linemates.

Before Alfredsson was put on his line, he had 9 goals in 40 games. Fisher scoring 40 goals? That's most definately a stretch.

You keep saying this, but Fisher has been a 22 goal scorer for two years now with guys like Alfredsson and Havlat on his line at times. I don't think he's going to hit 30 goals with just "normal linemates".
Yes, but he's been a 22-goal scorer with injuries...Don't you think he would get close to 30-goals with the same numbers?

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06-15-2007, 07:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by spoon View Post
Yes, but he's been a 22-goal scorer with injuries...Don't you think he would get close to 30-goals with the same numbers?
He missed 14 games both those years. He'd have to go on quite a tear to get close to 30.

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06-15-2007, 07:17 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
He missed 14 games both those years. He'd have to go on quite a tear to get close to 30.
At the pace he was at with Alfie and Schaefer, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Close to 30-goals could be 26,7,8,9. You don't think he could score 4-goals at the least?

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06-15-2007, 07:49 PM
  #56
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I agree with you people that Kelly is underrated, but better tha Fisher offensively? Are you guys serious? As much as I like the guy, Kelly has stone hands and nothing can change that. Fisher, although he too doesn't have that great finish, can make stuff happen with the energy he brings every shift, the same can be said to some extent about Neil. I don't think you can say the same about Kelly, he works hard every shift but doesn't exactly put out that big timely hit or that timely pass that Fisher does.
If Kelly was ever expected to fill in Fisher's role if Fisher was to ever leave for whatever reason, there would be a lot of disappointments.

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06-15-2007, 08:00 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSens View Post
I agree with you people that Kelly is underrated, but better tha Fisher offensively? Are you guys serious?
I don't think anyone has said Kelly is better than Fisher offensively, but it sounds like people are overrating Fisher's offense in this thread.

Quote:
If Kelly was ever expected to fill in Fisher's role if Fisher was to ever leave for whatever reason, there would be a lot of disappointments.
If Kelly was asked to fill the #3 center role, there would be no problem at all. He could do that easily. If he was put in the #2 role, he'd probably struggle. The problem is that Fisher is somewhere in between #2 and #3, at least IMO. I don't think he scares anybody as a #2 center.

The fact of the matter is that players like Fisher are always over-valued. Just look at how many people on this board (myself included) want to sign Scott Hartnell. People love the heart and soul type players. In the end, a lot of them can be replaced, especially if they start asking for more money than they're worth.

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06-15-2007, 08:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
I don't think anyone has said Kelly is better than Fisher offensively, but it sounds like people are overrating Fisher's offense in this thread.
Okay, I exaggerated a bit when I went to 40-goals. But Fisher could be a 30-goal scorer easily, if healthy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Xs-Jmpb-0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sNf816C18tA

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06-15-2007, 11:11 PM
  #59
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Fisher would be third in hits among forwards this year if he played a full 82 game season (235). Neil was first with 288 hits.

edit

That's 523 hits who is going to make up for that, Michalek?

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06-16-2007, 08:50 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SammyTheBull View Post
Fisher would be third in hits among forwards this year if he played a full 82 game season (235). Neil was first with 288 hits.

edit

That's 523 hits who is going to make up for that, Michalek?
Id sacrifice a whole bunch of hits for some more offense.

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06-16-2007, 03:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Id sacrifice a whole bunch of hits for some more offense.
I'll make it easy for you, just go be a SJ's fan

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06-16-2007, 03:28 PM
  #62
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I'll make it easy for you, just go be a SJ's fan


Ya because it's a terrible ideal trading an excellent third line center (Fisher) and a strong hitter in Neil for a potential 40 goal scoring 90+ point winger.

Heatley-Spezza-Eaves
Michalek-Vermette-Alfie

That is an awesome top six.

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06-16-2007, 03:59 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post


Ya because it's a terrible ideal trading an excellent third line center (Fisher) and a strong hitter in Neil for a potential 40 goal scoring 90+ point winger.

Heatley-Spezza-Eaves
Michalek-Vermette-Alfie

That is an awesome top six.
So you would like to go back to having the type of team that lost playoff rounds to the leafs?

All Skill, very little physical play.... Great idea! Alfie can meet Sundin on the golf course in April!!! Bring back our old rivalry!

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06-16-2007, 04:09 PM
  #64
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So you would like to go back to having the type of team that lost playoff rounds to the leafs?

All Skill, very little physical play.... Great idea! Alfie can meet Sundin on the golf course in April!!! Bring back our old rivalry!
Eaves can play tough.
Spezza and Heatley are both 215+Lbs they should be able to handle physical play.
Michalek is 225lbs and has loads of offenive flair, led the Sharks in goals this past post season.
There is no way you are going to convince me that Vermette is not a tough player, he gave Pronger a separated shoulder with a hit, he plays tough.
Alfredsson is a tough player.

Then the bottom six has players like Kelly, Schaefer and Saprykin who play tough. We can sign a Roberts for the bottom six and he will play tough.

Phillips and Volchenkov are tough hockey players. Meszaros is getting there, a season of Schubert on defense and his overall game will improve plus he is physical.

It does not matter how tough we all if we can't have two lines that can score. All a team has to do is make the top line vanish and match the secondary scoring we have and we will lose. We need to improve our second line.

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06-16-2007, 04:38 PM
  #65
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I agree we need to improve by adding a player or two that will help take some of the pressure off of Spezza and Heatley.

The biggest difference in our series with Anaheim was that the ducks PPG line was the 2nd line so if we focused on shutting down selanne and co. they were able to hurt us.

I feel it's unrealistic to move Fisher and/or Neil at this point. You mention all of those players who are tough, the point was they weren't tough enough to beat the ducks. Fisher is an incredible talent... He's very physical, he scores goals (25-30 if he plays 80 games) and I think another talent you are overlooking is that he is a great defensive player. Not too many guys in the league like that. He can give you offensive talent and strong defensive play in one man and one salary. Therefore he is an amazing asset to have in a cap world.

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06-16-2007, 04:44 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Matt016 View Post
I feel it's unrealistic to move Fisher and/or Neil at this point. You mention all of those players who are tough, the point was they weren't tough enough to beat the ducks. Fisher is an incredible talent... He's very physical, he scores goals (25-30 if he plays 80 games) and I think another talent you are overlooking is that he is a great defensive player. Not too many guys in the league like that. He can give you offensive talent and strong defensive play in one man and one salary. Therefore he is an amazing asset to have in a cap world.
I understand this and in a perfect world I would keep Fisher. The thing is he is a UFA at the end of the 07/08 season and will command 3.0-3.5 on the open market for what he brings at both ends of the ice. If I could move him in a package for a player that could pot upwards of 40 goals to help our scoring out, be a solid two-way player himself and is not a UFA at the end of the 07/08 season. I do it in a heartbeat.


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06-16-2007, 05:05 PM
  #67
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Fisher is a heart and soul guy, but he's maxed out his potential. He's a young Mike Peca without the hands... Thats fishers one problem, the one thing keeping him from being an all-star/elite tallent in this leauge. He's fast as lightning, he's tough on the puck and plays the body, but he has bricks for hands - and will never score more than 25 goals, no matter who his linemates are.
Peca wasn't really much of a scorer either and Fisher has reached Peca's peak production levels (over the past 2 years). But of course, scoring has gone up somewhat... arguably for the 1st unit PP guys (for the most part) so that might not be a fair comparison. Then again, Fisher might have received a better offensive role had he played on teams as poor offensively as Peca had. Basically, Fisher just coming into his prime and finally getting a more offensive role is arguably producing just as much as Peca did during his prime.

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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Fisher is a 20-25 goal 45-50 point player on average, eats PK minutes and excels defensively.
If moving Fisher means we get a potential 40 goal 90 point two-way player on the second line you have to do it.
Fisher's producing at better than that rate and is only producing at the level you've listed because of injuries. His 82 game average the past 2 years is 27 goals and 56 points.

Few players in the history of the game could score 40 goals and 90 points with 2nd line and 2nd PP unit ice time, Michalek isn't one of them.

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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
You keep saying this, but Fisher has been a 22 goal scorer for two years now with guys like Alfredsson and Havlat on his line at times. I don't think he's going to hit 30 goals with just "normal linemates".
Havlat played 18 games last year... most of which with Vermette or Smoke at center.

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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
it sounds like people are overrating Fisher's offense in this thread.
The problem is that Fisher is somewhere in between #2 and #3, at least IMO. I don't think he scares anybody as a #2 center.
No doubt. But too many people underrate it. Fisher is a #2 offensive center. However, he's constantly compared on this board with players who... yes... are in #2 center roles. but also get top unit PP time because of the structure of their teams(Briere/Drury, Richards/Lecavalier, Thornton/Marleau, Crosby/Malkin, Staal/Brind'amour, Nylander/Straka, Bergeron/Savard). 14 centers among the top-23 in PP time for centers all got twice as much PP time as Fisher with top line players... and all were in the top-25 in scoring for centers.

Really, I'm not sure what to say in this thread... as I'm not sure what people expect out of a 2nd line center who is actually getting 2nd line minutes. The 30th center in scoring this year only had 62 points and Fisher was on pace for 58. Considering that Legwand was probably the only center above him in scoring that had less PP time... I think that's pretty good. (Fisher was 46th in ES scoring among centers, 50th overall).

The point is that as constituted, with 2 top wingers on the PP and actual D-men on the point. We don't need and can't give ice time to another top offensive player. We need Fisher more than another offensive player because he does the things we need... not the things we already have lots of.

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06-16-2007, 05:11 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post

Really, I'm not sure what to say in this thread... as I'm not sure what people expect out of a 2nd line center who is actually getting 2nd line minutes. The 30th center in scoring this year only had 62 points and Fisher was on pace for 58. Considering that Legwand was probably the only center above him in scoring that had less PP time... I think that's pretty good. (Fisher was 46th in ES scoring among centers, 50th overall).

The point is that as constituted, with 2 top wingers on the PP and actual D-men on the point. We don't need and can't give ice time to another top offensive player. We need Fisher more than another offensive player because he does the things we need... not the things we already have lots of.
Fisher can not carry an offensive line though. Teams do not match up against him because they are scared of his offense. He started the season with 2 goals in his first 21 games. Six goals and 10 points in 20 playoff games. Do we really want to be relying on secondary offense from Fisher?

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06-16-2007, 05:49 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Fisher can not carry an offensive line though. Teams do not match up against him because they are scared of his offense. He started the season with 2 goals in his first 21 games. Six goals and 10 points in 20 playoff games. Do we really want to be relying on secondary offense from Fisher?
Yes.
.50 PPG was good enough for 64th among forwards... among 16 teams, that makes Fisher the 16th forward in the "2A" group you've seen me post from time to time as a measure of scoring depth. So there were 32 x (theoretical) 2nd liners who produced at a lower rate than he did.

Obviously, it's always great to add an amazing young talent like Michalek. But you're not going to improve the offense much because of diminishing returns. There's only so much ice time to go around, so either Michalek never scores as much as you hope or you merely shift one player out and add the PPP's he would have got to Michalek's total.

Look at Buffalo. They had more scoring balance up front than us right? (and we had higher top-end scorers) But that's in large part because they spread PP time more evenly among their top 6 forwards than we did and they also gave Drury the point on the top PP unit at the expense of a defenseman.

Now let's look at Drury specifically.
69 pts total in 77 games.
27 PPP's, 4 1/2 mins per game on the PP..... Corvo and Preissing got 3 1/2 minutes each and had 15 & 18 PPP's. Do we gain anything here?
Drury had 42 ES/SH pts. Fisher had 36.

IMO, all this does is shift ice time and PPP's without making the offense noticeably better.

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06-16-2007, 05:52 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Fisher can not carry an offensive line though. Teams do not match up against him because they are scared of his offense. He started the season with 2 goals in his first 21 games. Six goals and 10 points in 20 playoff games. Do we really want to be relying on secondary offense from Fisher?
Often as I disagree with Fuhr, I'm with him on this. I'm glad that Fish doesn't get more PP time -- he's usually not a particularly good PP player. As for his point totals, his biggest spurt of production this year was when Alfie moved onto his line, and it's really not giving too much credit to Alfie in this case to say that he completely elevated the play of Fisher and Schaefer, who, at that time, were both in danger of having pretty mediocre seasons. Fish might yet become a more reliable offensive threat, but right now, I'm not convinced.

While I don't necessarily endorse the mentioned trade for Michalek, if we're looking at Fisher for consistent, reliable second-line offense, I think we're in a bit of trouble.

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06-16-2007, 05:53 PM
  #71
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Come on people ,Fisher is an outstanding player who gives his life on the ice . He is good both defensively and offensively , has amazing skills and also he will be the next leader after the departure of Alfie.
I know that you want a second center line who scores more goals ,and have more points , but we can sign a good winger , like Zubrus who will score many goals.
BUT, if he ask more than 3,5 , give him a kiss,a hug and hasta la vista

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06-16-2007, 05:55 PM
  #72
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Often as I disagree with Fuhr, I'm with him on this. I'm glad that Fish doesn't get more PP time -- he's usually not a particularly good PP player. As for his point totals, his biggest spurt of production this year was when Alfie moved onto his line, and it's really not giving too much credit to Alfie in this case to say that he completely elevated the play of Fisher and Schaefer, who, at that time, were both in danger of having pretty mediocre seasons.

While I don't necessarily endorse the mentioned trade for Michalek, if we're looking at Fisher for consistent, reliable second-line offense, I think we're in a bit of trouble.
Michalek is just the flavor because of how the thread began. If I could move Fisher in a package for any 30+ goal scoring 80 point LW/C I would do it in a second.

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06-16-2007, 06:06 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
overrating Fisher...
The fact of the matter is that players like Fisher are always over-valued. ...
No kidding. He's like a God who can do no wrong.

I love the guy - great energy, work ethic etc. but I hardly think he is perfect irreplaceable. Well, I should probably actually read the thread before commenting, but Fish isn't that great offensively. He can put in a few goals, but he's not any kind of playmaker. I've always maintained he's the perfect #3 centre.

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06-16-2007, 06:13 PM
  #74
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Mike Fisher 2:48PP per game 7PP goals 12PP points

Milan Michalek 3:26PP per game 11PP goals 26PP points

An extra 40 seconds generates double the production on the PP. Granted Michalek played 10 more games more then Fisher.

Fisher averaged 13:08 even strength and got 13 goals and 32 points

Michalek averaged 12:55 even strength and got 15 goals and 39 points

I wish we had a second line player that could carry the 2nd PP unit like Michalek showed he could do as well as be a consistent threat at ES.

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06-16-2007, 06:13 PM
  #75
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To Boston: Fisher, Eaves

To Ottawa: 8th, Axelsson, Sigalet (The Dman)

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