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Brodeur beats the King on Vezina

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Old
06-16-2007, 04:41 AM
  #51
dynamoovechkin
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Marty was spectacular this year, clearly carrying his team at times. If I'm not mistaken he was NOT nominated for 2 Vezinas his first 2 years in the league, which in and of itself may not be a fair comparison because Henrik started as an older, and more experienced player in the NHL.

There was a poll on the NYR.com about the best moment of the year, which was, for me, Avery's hit on Marty where he Stanislavski'ed like he was shot with a cannon ball.
One of the posters here got the shot for his avatar. Avery then called him a whiner between periods, which made me just love Avery for all time.

Marty deserved the Vezina, but rust never sleeps, and even though he has to be considered one of the all-time greats, it's easy to hate the guy for his arrogance and flopping. He will soon be on the downside of his career, and it can't come soon enough as far as I am concerned.

Henrik got a taste of the playoffs, and will be hungry to get to the next level. He'll get his due, and we'll all be there to cheer him on along the way. For now, that will have to do.

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06-16-2007, 08:25 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by dynamoovechkin View Post
He will soon be on the downside of his career, and it can't come soon enough as far as I am concerned.
That has been predicted about him for about as long as the rumored demise of the Devils will happen. I am still waiting for either.

First, Marty was overrated becuase of the trap. Then it was becuase he played behind Stevens. Then it was becuase he played behind Nieds. The fact of the matter is that, when all is said and done, he is going down as one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest (though personally I would take Roy ahead of him). His play this past year, did nothing to suggest that the end is near.

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06-16-2007, 09:00 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JR#9 View Post
C'mon trots, we all know each and every fanbase has their share of homers who post ridiculously biased views but that being said you seem to like making a habbit of going to the Devil board on your knees saying how everything Lou and the Devils are the best thing since sliced bread while always taking shots at the NYR's fanbase so why don't you go back over there and suck up some more or worry about that debacle of a franchise you call your own on LI because at the end of the day there are only a few that people here that were trying to act like Henrik should've had a better shot in the race.

And if you want to talk about homers just look at the Devil board you so love to heap praise upon because as I said we all have a few the Devil board is as dillusional as it gets with some of their posts about trade values or outlooks on their own franchise so why don't you try and take a few shots at their fanbase instead of the NYR's since you so enjoy calling out homers.
Until Brodeur plays behind a system that doesn't protect him the way the devil's system does he hasn't shown me anything. He is more a product of turning aside low %, shallow angle shots that a cigar store indian could save. Look at all of the other 3 contenders this year. Do any of them play in a defense 1st system? No. All 3have to stand on their heads almost every night.

Now take a look at what happens to Brodeur's game when NJ doesn't play their game in front of him? He struggles.

To me my vote goes to the guy who is more valuable to his team. I would have voted for the goalie who, if you removed him from his team the team's success is nowhere near what it was. In that case Brodeur doesn't even make the top 3.

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06-16-2007, 09:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
if you removed him from his team the team's success is nowhere near what it was. In that case Brodeur doesn't even make the top 3.


Wow, you're SO right. His cap hit is waaaaaaaaay too big. I propose trading him and signing Glenn Healey so that he can come and win the Vezina for the Devils because I know with big Glenn between the pipes we'll have just as much success as we would with Marty. Really, you should be hired by Eklund, both of you together would form an entity that would have more credibility than anyone has ever known.

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06-16-2007, 09:19 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post


Wow, you're SO right. His cap hit is waaaaaaaaay too big. I propose trading him and signing Glenn Healey so that he can come and win the Vezina for the Devils because I know with big Glenn between the pipes we'll have just as much success as we would with Marty. Really, you should be hired by Eklund, both of you together would form an entity that would have more credibility than anyone has ever known.
How good was Marty from the All-Star break to the end of the season, which in Hockey is the equivalent to the stretch run in baseball? That is when the rubber meets the road and the top players step up and carry their teams. Where was Marty ranked during that stretch of games?

Top Ten
GAA: 10th (HL 1st, RL 4th, MK didn't finish in top 10)
SV%: Tied for 9th (HL 1st, RL 3rd, tied for 9th)
Win%: didn't make top 10 - 12th (HL 1st, RL 11th, MK 14th,
Min Played: 2nd (HL 1st, RL 3rd, MK 4th)

These stats were taken from The Hockey Rodent. I think the stats show that the team carried Marty down the stretch run.

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06-16-2007, 09:40 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
How good was Marty from the All-Star break to the end of the season, which in Hockey is the equivalent to the stretch run in baseball? That is when the rubber meets the road and the top players step up and carry their teams. Where was Marty ranked during that stretch of games?

Top Ten
GAA: 10th (HL 1st, RL 4th, MK didn't finish in top 10)
SV%: Tied for 9th (HL 1st, RL 3rd, tied for 9th)
Win%: didn't make top 10 - 12th (HL 1st, RL 11th, MK 14th,
Min Played: 2nd (HL 1st, RL 3rd, MK 4th)

These stats were taken from The Hockey Rodent. I think the stats show that the team carried Marty down the stretch run.
All that is irrelevant, it's all a matter of the overall season and even you can agree, start to finish (not counting playoffs) Marty had the better overall season and was therefore worthy of winning the Vezina.

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06-16-2007, 10:48 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
Until Brodeur plays behind a system that doesn't protect him the way the devil's system does he hasn't shown me anything. He is more a product of turning aside low %, shallow angle shots that a cigar store indian could save. Look at all of the other 3 contenders this year. Do any of them play in a defense 1st system? No. All 3have to stand on their heads almost every night.

Now take a look at what happens to Brodeur's game when NJ doesn't play their game in front of him? He struggles.

To me my vote goes to the guy who is more valuable to his team. I would have voted for the goalie who, if you removed him from his team the team's success is nowhere near what it was. In that case Brodeur doesn't even make the top 3.
Man, I can't believe I'm being such a Marty apologist, but I fundamentally disagree with you in this case, Atlanta. Brodeur, I have to admit, is one of the all-time greats.

First, dealing with statistics: Marty played behind some very solid Devils defences in his time and your argument would make sense if he had just put up good numbers throughout his career. But he hasn't: he has put up phenomenal numbers for a very long time. He has been an élite player for 13 years in this league now.

If he weren't one of the best ever, he simply would not have been able to do this. Detroit's left-wing lock system was equally effective to the Devils Montreal-style defence, but were Osgood or Vernon able to put up Brodeur-like numbers? For a season or two, yes, but neither could maintain that success. Only when Dominic Hasek joined the team did Detroit have a goalie, numbers-wise, who was consistently amongst the best.

Second, statistics are overrated anyway: Throw all that statistics stuff out of the window. Let ESPN bother with that. Remember Brodeur in 1994? That Devils team had nothing on the Rangers: we were more dynamic, more exciting, more experienced and had better depth. Not that the Devils were a bunch of scrubs, but it was Martin Brodeur who turned the series into a great duel with Mike Richter. It was Brodeur who allowed that Devils team to compete with our Rangers to 7 games. Imagine if Terreri had been in net. He was a decent goalie, but do you really think the series would have gone past 5 games?

Brodeur was an élite goalie his rookie year (much like Lundqvist) and he has only gotten better since. We've all seen Brodeur play enough to be able to ignore the numbers and know that he is simply an awesome player.

Third, did the Devils make Brodeur, or did Brodeur make the Devils? You say that Brodeur was protected by the Devils. I say that the Brodeur protected the Devils. They Debbies have been so good for so long and yet, in that time, there have only been two constants: Lou and Marty. Lou can stock the team, but ultimately, it's the guys on the ice who play the games. The Devils have always been responsible on defence, but let's not pretend that they play the same style now that they did in the mid-90's. They reinvented the Montreal Defence, they became more physical, now they're smaller and skate more. Always disciplined, but not always the same. The one consistent on these teams has been that they've been built around Marty Brodeur.

Great players aren't protected by their teams, they are the bedrock of their teams. Brodeur is the keystone of the Devils -- remove him, and they become much more ordinary. Clemmensen is a borderline NHL backup. Ari Ahonen never even got a chance in the NHL.

Every Devils team for the last decade has been designed from the net out. The NHL had to change the rules of the game because of Brodeur and his puckhandling skills. These are not things that happen for ordinary players.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and take a shower. After saying all those things defending Brodeur, I feel dirty.

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06-16-2007, 11:39 AM
  #58
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Hmmm, thats funny...



If its not ment to rip lundqvist, then hmm, what is it ment as??

Ummm, it's meant to rip prepubescent fanboys. Like yourself. Hit a nerve, Sparky? Niiiice spellling too. The future of America.

What is always amusing about little people like yourself is your selective reading habits. Check out the line immediately after the one you bold-faced? How about the accolades I and other non-NYR fans constantly lavish upon Lundqvist? Nah. Wouldn't fit into your agenda. Cognitive Dissonance, the M.O. of cretins.

But hey, two years...vs. 13 years of being simply "a product of the system".


Now might be a good time to stop being hypocritical and get over yo'self daaahling. k thnx.

Now's a time to kiss my ass, K? It is small minds like yourself that put the rest of us in perspective.


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06-16-2007, 11:46 AM
  #59
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Thats a "pro abortion" (more commonly known as pro choice, scholar...if youre going to try to impress me with your big words why don't you try finding the right ones) fangirl to you sweetheart....

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06-16-2007, 11:52 AM
  #60
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Thats a "pro abortion" (more commonly known as pro choice, scholar...if youre going to try to impress me with your big words why don't you try finding the right ones) fangirl to you sweetheart....
A litany of NYR posters and your's truly have have carried on informed, sometimes heated, but always respectful, dialogue over the years.

Why? All of these NYR posters possess common sense. Objectivity. Maturity. Knowledge.

It's the newbie brand of HF fangirls like yourself (Jagr poster over your bed? ), for whom contempt is justified. So, if you do not mind, you're headed to the "Ignore" mode, so I can concentrate on communicating with the adults here.

Been a pleasure.

PS - One typically goes out of his way to show respect to the fairer sex. In your case, an exception is justified.


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06-16-2007, 12:19 PM
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If you're going to say something-say it, instead of posting it then regretting it and going back and editing/deleting it afterwards.


To think I posted this thread to inform people of the winners. holy smokes...

EDIT: So much for ignoring me....

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06-16-2007, 12:21 PM
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If you're going to say something-say it, instead of posting it then regretting it and going back and editing/deleting it afterwards.
I will do whatever I please. And, if you do not like it, you know what you can do.

"K"?

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06-16-2007, 12:36 PM
  #63
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Trotts -- the only thing that I've ever been kind of disheartened about your posts is that, like the one poster showed, you seem to have a much easier time poking at NYR fans than Debs fans who are just as homerish if not moreso than we are over here.

I mean, like I said. I've been attacked more times on that board for a dissenting opinion than on any other board around here. And it's just because of the rampant homerism that is in some of the more "prevelant" posters on that board.

There are a few guys on here who are just ridiculous. And there are a few on every board. But I definitely do notice you bashing the homers on our board much moreso than on the Deb board. In fact, I don't recall a post of you calling any Debs fans "fanboys" or whatnot.

Doesn't matter much to me as your incite is all I give a **** about, but I think you should call a spade a spade in this case and read some posts where a guy like me will get attacked by 15 different posters for saying Cam Janssen isn't anything more than a borderline 4th liner as I was earlier in the year .

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06-16-2007, 12:40 PM
  #64
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Trotts -- the only thing that I've ever been kind of disheartened about your posts is that...
Fair enough, Jon. Point taken.

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06-16-2007, 12:45 PM
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Fair enough, Jon. Point taken.
When do we get to see the posts about rampant Devils fanboys

(JK of course)

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06-16-2007, 01:53 PM
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A litany of NYR posters and your's truly have have carried on informed, sometimes heated, but always respectful, dialogue over the years.
You know what the summers are like 'round these parts, when school lets out. The "here-today, gone-tommorow" posters are always out in force.

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06-16-2007, 02:16 PM
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Not taking anything away from Brodeur (and I would have put him ahead of Lundqvist in the Vezina voting), but Luongo should have won it in my opinion.

The Canucks turn-around just by getting Luongo needs to be noted. Vignault won the Jack Adams but he only did so much. I have NHL Center Ice and I watched several late Canucks games and saw him save them probably 20-30 times this season alone.

Brodeur did the same for the Devils, but I don't even think this was his best season among the past few. He deserves extra credit since he had to play in so many more games, but I just thought Luongo turned that entire team around in the span of a season and it's unfortunate he walked away with zero awards.

As for Lundqvist...his time is coming. If he had a better first half this year, I'd argue for him more..but I just can't see him winning it because of his play down the stretch. I'd say within the next 3-5 years at least.

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06-16-2007, 03:00 PM
  #68
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Man, I can't believe I'm being such a Marty apologist, but I fundamentally disagree with you in this case, Atlanta. Brodeur, I have to admit, is one of the all-time greats.

First, dealing with statistics: Marty played behind some very solid Devils defences in his time and your argument would make sense if he had just put up good numbers throughout his career. But he hasn't: he has put up phenomenal numbers for a very long time. He has been an élite player for 13 years in this league now.

If he weren't one of the best ever, he simply would not have been able to do this. Detroit's left-wing lock system was equally effective to the Devils Montreal-style defence, but were Osgood or Vernon able to put up Brodeur-like numbers? For a season or two, yes, but neither could maintain that success. Only when Dominic Hasek joined the team did Detroit have a goalie, numbers-wise, who was consistently amongst the best.

Second, statistics are overrated anyway: Throw all that statistics stuff out of the window. Let ESPN bother with that. Remember Brodeur in 1994? That Devils team had nothing on the Rangers: we were more dynamic, more exciting, more experienced and had better depth. Not that the Devils were a bunch of scrubs, but it was Martin Brodeur who turned the series into a great duel with Mike Richter. It was Brodeur who allowed that Devils team to compete with our Rangers to 7 games. Imagine if Terreri had been in net. He was a decent goalie, but do you really think the series would have gone past 5 games?

Brodeur was an élite goalie his rookie year (much like Lundqvist) and he has only gotten better since. We've all seen Brodeur play enough to be able to ignore the numbers and know that he is simply an awesome player.

Third, did the Devils make Brodeur, or did Brodeur make the Devils? You say that Brodeur was protected by the Devils. I say that the Brodeur protected the Devils. They Debbies have been so good for so long and yet, in that time, there have only been two constants: Lou and Marty. Lou can stock the team, but ultimately, it's the guys on the ice who play the games. The Devils have always been responsible on defence, but let's not pretend that they play the same style now that they did in the mid-90's. They reinvented the Montreal Defence, they became more physical, now they're smaller and skate more. Always disciplined, but not always the same. The one consistent on these teams has been that they've been built around Marty Brodeur.

Great players aren't protected by their teams, they are the bedrock of their teams. Brodeur is the keystone of the Devils -- remove him, and they become much more ordinary. Clemmensen is a borderline NHL backup. Ari Ahonen never even got a chance in the NHL.

Every Devils team for the last decade has been designed from the net out. The NHL had to change the rules of the game because of Brodeur and his puckhandling skills. These are not things that happen for ordinary players.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and take a shower. After saying all those things defending Brodeur, I feel dirty.
All some very valid points, except, neither Montreal or Detroit played the left wing lock exclusively. They still played the game. NJ has never played anything but. Whenever they have attempted to, like the 1st season after lockout what happened? They stumbled and stunk up the joint so much that what did Lame Lou do? Canned the coach and put the devil style of play back into their system.

To compare what and how Montreal and later Detroit (under the same coach) played is an insult to those teams. Those Montreal teams were THE BEST I have ever seen. They could play it any way you wanted too and beat the crap out of you in the process. NJ could and can play one way only.

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06-17-2007, 10:33 AM
  #69
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and while Trotts is probably one of, if not my the best, posters on this entire board

while I took a shot at Trots in this thread I agree 100% and i think he is probrably the best overall poster on HF and I've always enjoyed his level-headed posting.

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