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Are the Oilers more talented than the Flames

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12-27-2003, 12:35 PM
  #1
Mizral
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Are the Oilers more talented than the Flames

This question is asked, and has been asked, ad nauseum for the last 20 or so years, and especially these last few years. Early this season, I think you'd have Oilers fans to a man say the Oilers were more talented, and the Flames less.

And I'm sure many will say that now too. The thought is that the Flames are only better because of Daryll Sutter instilling a yeoman's work ethic from the 1st line down to the fourth line, and MacTavish .. well.. not.

However, many Flames have taken a jump this year and look on the whole a lot more talented than before. In particular, I think of Matthew Lombardi, who is looking like a very talented young scorer - Jordan Leopold who has absolutely stunned me with his coolness and slick puck moving skills back there - and Mikko Kiprusoff whom I really didn't like, but is showing to be a capable netminder (so far). Compare that to the Oilers, when Brewer looks perhaps less talented than I may have thought (and I'm sure other fans have too), Salo's abilities seems to have eroded away, and some of the guys brought in last year and the off-season haven't been quite as good as they had hoped).

Also:

Do Oil fans, considering the situations so far this year for the Flames and Oilers, still feel they are the more 'talented' club? Overall, when the Flames cool down a bit and the Oilers heat up a bit, will things be even? Will the Flames be better? Will the Oilers be better?

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12-27-2003, 01:07 PM
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For the last few seasons, clubs like Calgary and Nashville have been acquiring talent and building towards something better. I guess it's something of a surprise that they passed us going 90mph, but no, I'm not terribly surprised they're ahead of us.

As for talent level, well they've had an impact player for several years now (Iginla), and the Oilers haven't had one since July 1, 2001. Their backline is just terrific, with Regehr, Lydman and Gauthier being joined by Leopold.

Up front, unlike the Oilers, the Flames added some veteran players, not many, but enough to show the way.

And of course, they got a new coach who has never really missed the playoffs and a goalie who looks like Ken Dryden did as a rookie.

I'd say the Oilers have as much talent, but that it's not in a logical order right now. For instance, we're weak at center but have depth on the wings to the point where good players sit every night. We have good young defenders, but force Brewer into a role he's not ready for at this time. And of course, the goaltending has been poor save Conklin.

Put it this way: back when the Oilers were making the playoffs and the Flames were not, the gap was closer than it looked. Sutter arrived, put order into the mix, used playing time as a weapon, and the team charged into playoff contention.

In Edmonton, it's fair to say Lowe juggled too many pieces and the "team" fell apart and they're left with some nice pieces and some guys who need more coaching than you'd normally get at the NHL level.

Doesn't really change anything, I've always thought it was bad for us that the Flames were crappy. If there's ONE THING that will get the phones at the Oiler office humming, it's being behind Calgary.

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12-27-2003, 01:09 PM
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I still feel the Oilers have more talent at forward. Guys like Smyth, York, Hemsky, Oates, Isbister, Dvorak and Torres. Those are all very good players, and I don't think the Flames can match them.

Goaltending is weird. I used to think Tommy Salo was an excellent goalie. Now I'm not so sure. I don't know if it was Belarus, injuries, or something else, but he's gone WAY downhill. He is just not the same goalie he once was. Kiprusoff is playing great right now, but judgement will be reserved on him for another 20 games or so.

The defense is where Calgary separates itself from Edmonton. Very few teams can match Calgary's top six. Edmonton's defense just isn't good enough. Eric Brewer looks like he's sleeping out there, Alexei Semenov has been very disappointing, Bergeron has been less than stellar and Cory Cross is his usual pilon self. Sure Staios has been excellent and Smith has been solid, but they do not make up for the overall incompetence of the team's defense. This team needs Jeff Woywitka to develop well, and fast. He cannot arrive soon enough.

Coaching has something to do with it as well. I've always liked Craig MacTavish, but his message is wearing thin me thinks. Even at his best, MacTavish is nowhere near the coach Darryl Sutter is. Sutter has transformed this team from a bunch of losers into a team that is confident and capable of winning any game on any night against any team. And that is something that has not been seen in Calgary for a long, long time.

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12-27-2003, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
This question is asked, and has been asked, ad nauseum for the last 20 or so years, and especially these last few years. Early this season, I think you'd have Oilers fans to a man say the Oilers were more talented, and the Flames less.

And I'm sure many will say that now too. The thought is that the Flames are only better because of Daryll Sutter instilling a yeoman's work ethic from the 1st line down to the fourth line, and MacTavish .. well.. not.

However, many Flames have taken a jump this year and look on the whole a lot more talented than before. In particular, I think of Matthew Lombardi, who is looking like a very talented young scorer - Jordan Leopold who has absolutely stunned me with his coolness and slick puck moving skills back there - and Mikko Kiprusoff whom I really didn't like, but is showing to be a capable netminder (so far). Compare that to the Oilers, when Brewer looks perhaps less talented than I may have thought (and I'm sure other fans have too), Salo's abilities seems to have eroded away, and some of the guys brought in last year and the off-season haven't been quite as good as they had hoped).

Also:

Do Oil fans, considering the situations so far this year for the Flames and Oilers, still feel they are the more 'talented' club? Overall, when the Flames cool down a bit and the Oilers heat up a bit, will things be even? Will the Flames be better? Will the Oilers be better?
I don't know. For the last 7 years the answer has been pretty obvious. The Oilers have been better but that COULD change this year but a lot of things could still happen. The Oilers could go on a long winning streak and the Flames could start a losing streak.

Things change in the NHL very quickly and Calgary has been ahead of us before in the past 7 years only to end up behind Edmonton.

IMO the Oilers are not likely as bad as they have played in this stretch and the Flames are most likely not as good as they have been in this stretch.

I think the teams will end up a lot closer than they are now. Time will tell.

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12-27-2003, 03:48 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evman150
The defense is where Calgary separates itself from Edmonton. Very few teams can match Calgary's top six. Edmonton's defense just isn't good enough. Eric Brewer looks like he's sleeping out there, Alexei Semenov has been very disappointing, Bergeron has been less than stellar and Cory Cross is his usual pilon self. Sure Staios has been excellent and Smith has been solid, but they do not make up for the overall incompetence of the team's defense. This team needs Jeff Woywitka to develop well, and fast. He cannot arrive soon enough.
<i>Slow day on the boards, Miz -> looking to stir up trouble?</i>

As to the original question, IMO the Flames have more talent in their organization.

That said, I disagree with the comments about Edmonton defense above. Brewer, while off to a slow start, has been returning to form since returning from his injury. Staois has been execellent, Smith has been solid. Together, they have formed a very capable (3,4,5) defense grouping. Cross is a more than capable #6, and has played consistently. That said, each of these players have been playing over their heads all season. Some, (Staois, Smith) have relished their new roles, and are playing some of the best hockey of their careers. Others (Brewer as #1, Cross as #4/5) have struggled, but I don't think that they have been the primary reason for the Oil's recent slide.

As to Semenov and Bergeron, how can rookie players who have played under 55 games in each their careers before this season be disapointing? Semenov has all of the tools, but is still learning the game. Earlier this season, during an Oiler/Flame game in Edmonton, he put a 1-1/2ft circular hole in the glass behind McLennan's head. When asked about it, he responded dejectedly, "I must shoot lower." ;-) As to the hobbit, I personally can't see how he can play as a defenseman in the NHL, but every game, he suprises me.

That said, in a few years, the (hopefully) Edmonton Oilers will look pretty good.
The average age of the team is 26.7, which includes Oates (41), Cross (32), and Salo (32).

<u>Young players (under team average of 27) :</u>
<ul>
<li>Hemsky, Torres, Dvorak, York, Isbister, Reasoner, Horcoff, Chimera, Stoll.
<li>Brewer, Semenov, Bergeron
</ul>

<u>For prospects:</u>
<ul>
<li>Woywitka, Lynch, Greene, Allen, Svensk as defense prospects. (no phaneuf, but impressive prospects)
<li>Rita, Niinimake, Pouliot, Mikhnov, Salmelainen, Brodziak, Joukov, Stortini. (look ma, no sedin's ;-)
<li>Deslauriers as the prime goalie prospect. (please Kevin, don't trade him)
</ul>

I don't think that the Oilers are very good, nor do I think that they are very bad. For all of the fans, look on the bright side.

They are;
<ul>
<li> Financially solvent, with a broad based ownership group, who are unlikely to sell them to a Russian billionaire ;-)
<li> Stable, with a set game plan by management/
<li> Surrounded by avid fans (take a look at the thread counts, and wonder why Miz post's here.
<li> Building a solid team from within.
</ul>

IMO, things are looking up.

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12-27-2003, 03:54 PM
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nice post mizral. I was wrong. You are indeed a true fan of this team. Keep coming around when they are down and starting posts like this.

 
Old
12-27-2003, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Dover
nice post mizral. I was wrong. You are indeed a true fan of this team. Keep coming around when they are down and starting posts like this.
agreed Bendover... I am a lurker in this forum and agree that mizral likes to kick people when they are down...in response to his post..its clearly defense.... we used to have hamrlik, janne, poti, bo miro...etc we now have no talent for puck moving or power play point blasts..Calgary's defense is a hard knock blue collar roughneck approach, and clearly more talented. Sutter is KEY in their revival.. this will be one helluva interesting year..

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12-27-2003, 04:58 PM
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im sorry you both are way out of line on the Mizral comments and since your both very newly registered I'd clamp it if i were you.

Onto the reply of the original question

Oilers have more talent

Flames have more desire, determination, organisation, coaching talent and more players playing their roles the way they should!

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12-27-2003, 05:50 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Early this season, I think you'd have Oilers fans to a man say the Oilers were more talented, and the Flames less.
Really? I wouldn't say so at all. The talent level is pretty even all things considered - simply divided differently. So I am not entirely sure what brought about this topic. Were there posts earlier this year saying the Oilers were extremely more talented in every category that need to be disproven?

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12-27-2003, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Really? I wouldn't say so at all. The talent level is pretty even all things considered - simply divided differently. So I am not entirely sure what brought about this topic. Were there posts earlier this year saying the Oilers were extremely more talented in every category that need to be disproven?
It's called a Vancouver winning streak coupled with an Edmonton losing streak.

If the Oilers win the next 4 (ya right) and the Nucks lose the next 4 (ya right again) Mizral won't be within a country mile of this board.

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12-27-2003, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
It's called a Vancouver winning streak coupled with an Edmonton losing streak.

If the Oilers win the next 4 (ya right) and the Nucks lose the next 4 (ya right again) Mizral won't be within a country mile of this board.
Perhaps. I don't really know. Maybe there was a topic concerning this topic on Calgarypuck or some sort that spurred this discussion?

Personally, I think it's rather silly to compare ourselves with the Calgary Flames. If we are at least better than the Flames or they better than us... does it really make a huge difference in the grand scheme of the NHL anymore? Maybe back in the 80's but times have changed so much since then... personally I think the fire isn't as hot as it once was.

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12-27-2003, 06:21 PM
  #12
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Perhaps. I don't really know. Maybe there was a topic concerning this topic on Calgarypuck or some sort that spurred this discussion?
Precisely.

I've been posting on the Oilers board since there were 3000 posts.. before the boards nuke. I lurked here for before that too.

And yes, it was spurned on by a post on Calgarypuck.com

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12-27-2003, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Precisely.

I've been posting on the Oilers board since there were 3000 posts.. before the boards nuke. I lurked here for before that too.

And yes, it was spurned on by a post on Calgarypuck.com
That was simply all I was asking because it couldn't have come from this board. I'd like to think the posters here are a bit more level-minded than that.

No need to justify your place here on HF though. Sure you were here when there were only 3000 posts... a lot of us were here as well... whether actually posting or not.

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12-27-2003, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
im sorry you both are way out of line on the Mizral comments and since your both very newly registered I'd clamp it if i were you.
ben dover = sakich on holidays. Get off your horse Rabi.

I have supported mizral a few times when others have accused him of trolling. Lately, everything he says about the oil is real negative. This is not a nice thread to start if you aren't a fan and I don't think mizral is a fan.

It is one thing to be down on your own club, but to go to your rival's home page and start a thread like this is petty.

 
Old
12-28-2003, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
im sorry you both are way out of line on the Mizral comments and since your both very newly registered I'd clamp it if i were you.

Onto the reply of the original question

Oilers have more talent

Flames have more desire, determination, organisation, coaching talent and more players playing their roles the way they should!

rabi- we don't have to clamp it because we are new- i am not new, just new to posting- and is'nt this a "forum"=free speech

but after tonights victory, this needs to be the turning point for the season...or were out
-

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12-28-2003, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by northern2020
rabi- we don't have to clamp it because we are new- i am not new, just new to posting- and is'nt this a "forum"=free speech

but after tonights victory, this needs to be the turning point for the season...or were out
-
I'm not really clear to what he's so upset at you about.

Keep posting.

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12-28-2003, 01:55 AM
  #17
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sakich and northern i have a horse for a reason its to keep ur ***** in line

now further to that there other mods on these boards that aren't like me, lowetide or goil (leniant) and would have slapped a warning for calling names etc since they all do things by the book. Don't believe me go check the guidelines yourself.

As for mizral making negative comments, was there many posotive comments he could have made the last few weeks? hell even we were struggling to find posotive comments.

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12-28-2003, 02:12 AM
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It's still not very clear to me what Northern did in his what (4?) posts to warrant this (clamp it) warning .

Was something deleted? Otherwise I would say you are scaring potential future posters away with this "tough cop" act.

Grabbing straws here.

Here's an overveiw of all his 4 contributions:

(1)no doubt

(2)who is Nealy ? Neely

(3)agreed Bendover... I am a lurker in this forum and agree that mizral likes to kick people when they are down...in response to his post..its clearly defense.... we used to have hamrlik, janne, poti, bo miro...etc we now have no talent for puck moving or power play point blasts..Calgary's defense is a hard knock blue collar roughneck approach, and clearly more talented. Sutter is KEY in their revival.. this will be one helluva interesting year..

(4)rabi- we don't have to clamp it because we are new- i am not new, just new to posting- and is'nt this a "forum"=free speech

Clamp what Rabi?


Last edited by gretzky2kurri: 12-28-2003 at 02:21 AM.
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12-28-2003, 02:22 AM
  #19
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i haven't warned them, Sakich has this record we all know that but there's no right for a newbie poster to jump on board and call Mizral the way he did. Now i shouldn't really have to explain publicly why i gave them advice of clamp it but is this really acceptable?

Quote:
I am a lurker in this forum and agree that mizral likes to kick people when they are down
I'm not being bad cop

EDIT : added post to g2k's extra edited question

this is what i said

Quote:
im sorry you both are way out of line on the Mizral comments and since your both very newly registered I'd clamp it if i were you.
which means clamp (it) ur comments made about Mizral as they are uncalled for. Not clamp it u are getting a warning, if that was I wouldn't have posted in the forum but would have PM'd them instead


Last edited by rabi_sultan: 12-28-2003 at 02:27 AM.
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12-28-2003, 02:27 AM
  #20
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I am a lurker in this forum and agree that mizral likes to kick people when they are down


pfffffft. That was it? Well for a new guy he's not too far off the mark about Mizral.

Sorry Rabi, but this is a bit of strange behaivour coming from you.

sigh...whatever....

There WON'T be alot of newbies if this keeps up.


Last edited by gretzky2kurri: 12-28-2003 at 02:33 AM.
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12-28-2003, 02:41 AM
  #21
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i'm not extending this argument any more than here, it ends now whats said has been said I'm not warning, or going to play mod, i basically told them to stop calling names to other posters, if newbies do this g2k then fine let them join and we'll also let the quality and class that made HF a great place in the first instance go down the tube.

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12-28-2003, 02:45 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
i'm not extending this argument any more than here, it ends now whats said has been said I'm not warning, or going to play mod, i basically told them to stop calling names to other posters, if newbies do this g2k then fine let them join and we'll also let the quality and class that made HF a great place in the first instance go down the tube.
Okay........just what name did he call Mizral?

Certainly not the "resident madman" like you recently refered to me as.......

What did Northern call Mizral? NOTHING.....he just agreed with someone.

Just admit it.....you were trying to power trip....


Last edited by gretzky2kurri: 12-28-2003 at 02:54 AM.
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12-28-2003, 04:04 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
Okay........just what name did he call Mizral?

Certainly not the "resident madman" like you recently refered to me as.......

What did Northern call Mizral? NOTHING.....he just agreed with someone.

Just admit it.....you were trying to power trip....

I would have to agree with gretzky2kurri on this one,there really doesn't seem to be anything said that would warrant "advice" to be given whatsoever. Everyone is entitled to their opinons and i don't think there was any attack on anyone and just because someone is a "newbie" doesn't mean they have to be put in line for the sake of doing it. Just my two cents

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12-28-2003, 04:39 AM
  #24
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I don't think rabi's warning was a shot at either poster, more an effort to curtail something that could turn ugly (depending on how the Oilers did last night).

As to the timing of the post, I think momentai answered that and Mizral confirmed it.

I've posted things in the heat of the moment, and it isn't worth it. The spirit of this board is that we can share our obsession in one place with exceptionally knowledgeable people.

rabi_sultan has joined myself and Goil as a mod. I've got his back. We'll learn together, just like we always have. But folks, you have to understand there are going to be times when we can't agree.

I try to keep in mind the first post I read at HF from an Oilers poster. It was redtwilight, an Oilers poster (and season ticket holder) from Red Deer named Kim Gernack.

Kim had a great way of getting people on track without causing waves. We don't have that anymore, but we do have the best site on the net.

Can't we all just get along?

Now, if someone can play the Youngbloods' "Get Together" let's hold hands.....


Last edited by Lowetide: 12-28-2003 at 04:48 AM.
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12-28-2003, 05:58 AM
  #25
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my "get off your horse" comment was a little uncalled for. Rabi will end up being a pretty good mod for this board because he is a fan. I don't think I was fair in judging him after 1 week. I should have sent him a pm.

Sorry

 
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