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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Why did Gretzky win the Hart in 1989 with 31 fewer goals/points than Lemieux?

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Old
06-23-2007, 07:19 AM
  #26
Rorschach
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When Gretz arrived in LA, the other teams quickly figured out they could double and triple team him, unlike when he was in Edmonton, where you had to watch out for the Kurri's, Anderson's, Coffey's and Messier's also on the team. So for Gretz to still acheive his point total was simply amazing to most people.

Oh, and by the way, the double-teaming got so bad, Bernie Nicholls had 80 assists that year...AND 70 GOALS, all because he was on the powerplay nearly 100% of the time due to Gretz attracting extra guys. Also, the Kings actually finished with the fourth best record in the league that year. They even went on to upset the defending Stanley Cup champs in the playoffs later that year (the Oilers).

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Old
06-23-2007, 10:27 AM
  #27
Psycho Papa Joe
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Meh, payback for Lemieux stealing the 1988 MVP. Gretzky led his team to the Cup, had a better PPG, whereas Lemieux couldn't even get his team to the playoffs.

IMO Gretzky should have won in 88 and Lemieux in 89.

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06-23-2007, 06:55 PM
  #28
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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Lemieux wins the 89 HF boards for best statistical season then.

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Old
06-27-2007, 03:30 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Meh, payback for Lemieux stealing the 1988 MVP. Gretzky led his team to the Cup, had a better PPG, whereas Lemieux couldn't even get his team to the playoffs.

IMO Gretzky should have won in 88 and Lemieux in 89.
The Hart Trophy goes to the MVP of the regular season, not the playoffs. So the fact that the Oilers won the Cup is irrlevant.

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06-27-2007, 03:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
The Hart Trophy goes to the MVP of the regular season, not the playoffs. So the fact that the Oilers won the Cup is irrlevant.
Fact is the Oilers were a cup contender, and one of the top 2 or 3 favourites largeley on Gretzky's efforts, and the Pens didn't even make the playoffs.

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06-27-2007, 11:04 PM
  #31
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How many points did the Penguins have in 1988 vs. 1989? How many points did the Kings have in 1988 vs. 1989?

I don't know that statistics, but I remember the Kings went from being in last place in the division to second (just behind the Flames - who eventually won the Cup).

The Kings were almost the same team in 1989 as they were in 1988 (just replace Jimmy Carson with Wayne Gretzky).

Gretzky was the sole reason for their one season turnaround. They went from a losing team to a winning team overnight. Hence, he won the MVP (Hart Trophy).

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06-27-2007, 11:37 PM
  #32
umma gumma
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Originally Posted by Kenadyan View Post
How many points did the Penguins have in 1988 vs. 1989? How many points did the Kings have in 1988 vs. 1989?
This is it really.
LA 87-88
30-42-8 (0.425) 68 pts 318 GF
88-89
42-31-7 (0.569) 91 pts (+23) 376 (+58)

Pitt 87-88
36-35-9 (0.506) 81 pts 316 GF
88-89
40-33-7 (0.544) 87 pts (+6) 347 (+31)

There'd have been no shame in Mario winning though.

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06-27-2007, 11:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by umma gumma View Post
This is it really.
LA 87-88
30-42-8 (0.425) 68 pts 318 GF
88-89
42-31-7 (0.569) 91 pts (+23) 376 (+58)

Pitt 87-88
36-35-9 (0.506) 81 pts 316 GF
88-89
40-33-7 (0.544) 87 pts (+6) 347 (+31)

There'd have been no shame in Mario winning though.
While i understand wha you are getting at(ie increase in points from one season to another). How well do you think the Penguins would have done with the exact same roster in 87-88 with Carson instead of Lemieux, then the next year with Lemieux. A lemieuxless Penguins around that time would be lucky to break 60 points(hell maybe even 50).

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Old
06-28-2007, 07:22 AM
  #34
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I think Mario deserved it in 1989, simply for the fact that he finally, after 5 years brought the Pens to the plaoffs. Personally I think it would have been a nice "reward" so to speak, for his play finally translating into some real success for his team.

I know Gretzky did wonders for the Kings that year, and the NHL as a whole, but I'm still more impressed that Mario's season got the Pens into the dance after 6 years of futility.

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Old
06-28-2007, 07:24 AM
  #35
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Old
06-28-2007, 11:04 PM
  #36
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Look at the next year 1989-1990, Gretzky of the LA Kings won the Art Ross trophy but loss the Hart Trophy to Mark Messier in Edmonton...

Gretzky had 142 points to Messier 129 points..but Messier took that entire Oilers team on his back that year, leading them in goals, assist and points and to the playoffs where people said the Oilers couldn't get it done WITHOUT Gretzky after he took them out the year before in the first round..

For his accomplishments, Messier took the Hart and the Lester B. Pearson award that year by the vote of the MEDIA and the PLAYERS for what he did to that entire Oiler team..

You can't deny that Messier that year was the more dominant player in the league EVEN THOUGH Gretzky won the Art Ross by 13 points..

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07-03-2007, 04:07 PM
  #37
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Basically, the media, most people, did not like Mario. He wasn't as gracious and as much of an ambassador then Wayne was, and still is. I truly think that is why he got robbed a few times in his career.

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07-03-2007, 04:44 PM
  #38
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From memory, Mario was the first team all-star centre that year too...

It probably had more to do with how crazy hockey in the States went with Wayne now in LA. Media had heard of him & there was probably pressure to vote for him to make it an even more feel good story with Janet and Wayne coming to America!

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Old
07-03-2007, 05:07 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by hockeyisdbest View Post
Basically, the media, most people, did not like Mario. He wasn't as gracious and as much of an ambassador then Wayne was, and still is. I truly think that is why he got robbed a few times in his career.
And somehow he managed to win it the previous year, despite Gretzky's better PPG and Gretzky being on a cup contender, and the Pens missing the playoffs. Your theory is hogwash.

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07-03-2007, 08:50 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
And somehow he managed to win it the previous year, despite Gretzky's better PPG and Gretzky being on a cup contender, and the Pens missing the playoffs. Your theory is hogwash.
You are the guy that is full of hogwash. When gretzy won the Art Ross He was anointed with the Hart every year. Mario wins the art. Gretz still wins the Hart. go figure.

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07-03-2007, 09:46 PM
  #41
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This is a good example of why I respect the players's choice of mvp (aka the Lester B Pearson award) each year more than the writer's choice.

Btw, neither Gretzky nor Lemieux were the player's choice in 1989, it went to Yzerman.

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07-03-2007, 09:59 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili View Post
This is a good example of why I respect the players's choice of mvp (aka the Lester B Pearson award) each year more than the writer's choice.

Btw, neither Gretzky nor Lemieux were the player's choice in 1989, it went to Yzerman.

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Old
07-03-2007, 10:14 PM
  #43
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I have a feeling this is a case of better exposure for Gretzky than Lemieux. If I remember that season correctly, the Penguins were hardly on national television that year on the other hand the Kings were on several times. In fact almost every double header on Hockey Night In Canada featured the Kings in the late game. Granted double headers were done less those days, but still. There was no internet to see video highlights, so if the player wasn't on TV and wasn't seen often in your home team's arena, you couldn't vote for him as easily. Like the old adage says a picture spells 1000 words. You can write all you want on paper about Lemieux, but sight unseen you don't have the same magnitude,

I'll admit I am a big Gretzky fan, but I do think Gretzky deserved it. Most points gets you the Art Ross Award, but the Hart is for Most Valuable Player, that doesn't have a tangible measuring stick. I would say turning a team around like Gretz did with the Kings is a bigger thing than what Lemieux did.

As for the Rob Brown comparison, you have to remember Paul Coffey was in Pittsburgh then too and I think his 113 points which included 83 assists certainly elevated both Rob Brown and to a lesser extent Mario's point totals. Bernie Nichols on the other hand doubled his production with Gretzky playing there. Nobody else was even close to being the Paul Coffey on that team.

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Old
07-03-2007, 10:20 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili View Post
This is a good example of why I respect the players's choice of mvp (aka the Lester B Pearson award) each year more than the writer's choice.

Btw, neither Gretzky nor Lemieux were the player's choice in 1989, it went to Yzerman.
It's not a MVP award.

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Old
07-03-2007, 11:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
You are the guy that is full of hogwash. When gretzy won the Art Ross He was anointed with the Hart every year. Mario wins the art. Gretz still wins the Hart. go figure.
Oh, like in 90, 91 and 94? Congrats on getting your facts straight

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07-04-2007, 06:58 AM
  #46
Chili
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It's not a MVP award.
The Hart trophy is usually awarded to the 'player of the year' irregardless of the definition. The argument above about points is proof of that.

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07-04-2007, 08:09 AM
  #47
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Oh, like in 90, 91 and 94? Congrats on getting your facts straight
Iwas referring to the period 1981 thru 89 & my facts are bang on.

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Old
07-04-2007, 08:17 AM
  #48
Psycho Papa Joe
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Iwas referring to the period 1981 thru 89 & my facts are bang on.
So when regularly won the scoring title by around 60pts and actually made the playoffs? Actually helped his team become a contenter? You mean those years?

BTW you didn't qualify it in that manner, so your facts weren't straight. You wrote "When gretzy won the Art Ross He was anointed with the Hart every year." I name three years that he didn't and now you're just backing off your statement because I proved you wrong.

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07-04-2007, 09:58 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
So when regularly won the scoring title by around 60pts and actually made the playoffs? Actually helped his team become a contenter? You mean those years? Yes

BTW you didn't qualify it in that manner, so your facts weren't straight. You wrote "When gretzy won the Art Ross He was anointed with the Hart every year." I name three years that he didn't and now you're just backing off your statement because I proved you wrong.
It was pretty clear what I meant. The Hart went to the AR winner for 8 straight years & then all of a sudden in 1989, it didn't.

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07-04-2007, 10:24 AM
  #50
Psycho Papa Joe
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It was pretty clear what I meant.
Clear as mud.

Go ahead and backtrack. The MVP has pretty much always gone to a player who was on a playoff team. There are rare exceptions, and perhaps in 1989 one should have been made, but IMO Gretzky was a worthy winner. Lemieux would have been a worthy winner as well, just like in 1988 Gretzky would have been a worthy winner, but they gave it to Lemieux. I personally don't see a problem with how everything worked out in those two years, and your theory where you state "Basically, the media, most people, did not like Mario. He wasn't as gracious and as much of an ambassador then Wayne was, and still is. I truly think that is why he got robbed a few times in his career." is hogwash since if it was true, Lemieux wouldn't have won in 1988. There were valid reasons why Gretzky won in 1989 and it had nothing to do with your theory.

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