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Serge Savard vs. Guy Lapointe

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Old
06-25-2007, 07:53 AM
  #26
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
I'll disagree with that. I would take a number of defenseman before I would take Langway.
he said Savard was the best defensive defenseman

of course I'd take a number of d-men before Langway, all of them with more offensive ability

geez

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06-25-2007, 07:54 AM
  #27
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he said Savard was the best defensive defenseman

of course I'd take a number of d-men before Langway, all of them with more offensive ability

geez
I'm talking about defensively.

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06-25-2007, 08:10 AM
  #28
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Sorry, I never saw Shore, Harvey, Kelly.

But in the last 30 years of watching hockey I haven't witnessed a defenseman play in his own zone the way Langway can. Made me into a Capitals fan the moment he went there.

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06-25-2007, 08:14 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Sorry, I never saw Shore, Harvey, Kelly.

But in the last 30 years of watching hockey I've never seen a defenseman play in his own zone the way Langway can. Made me into a Capitals fan the moment he went there.
He was never able to raise his game come playoff time. Stevens as a Devil was better than Langway as a Cap. I would also take Orr, Bourque, Chelios, and Potvin as better than Langway defensively.

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06-25-2007, 08:26 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Stevens as a Devil was better than Langway as a Cap. I would also take Orr, Bourque, Chelios, and Potvin as better than Langway defensively.
In other words, he didn't knock your socks off or you didn't watch him much.

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06-25-2007, 08:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
In other words, he didn't knock your socks off or you didn't watch him much.
As a Flyers fan and season ticket holder I saw the Caps all the time.

I also saw them fail to get out of the Patick Division during Langway's prime. Those Caps teams certainly weren't devoid of talent either, at times dressing 4 Hall of Famers: (Langway, Stevens, Murphy and Gartner).

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06-25-2007, 10:34 AM
  #32
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Guy Lapointe was the better player than Serge Savard.

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Old
06-25-2007, 02:54 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
Most, but Coffey wasn't one of them. Was he even a defenseman?

Having watched Coffey and Langway in 1984, these are my conclusions. Coffey's offense was more impressive than Langway's defense, and Coffey's defense was more impressive than Langway's offense. I never saw Orr at his peak, so in my lifetime, no d-man was more spectacular offensively than Coffey, but I've seen quite a few guys defensively in Langway's league. Both great players, but Coffey did more than Langway and if I'm a GM in 1984 I would rather have Coffey patrol my blueline. Although in 1984, both Bourque and Potvin were better than either Coffey and Langway though. I really don't know why the voters started to sour on Potvin in the 80's. The guy played all round defense on a completely different level than anybody in the NHL during the Isles dynasty years.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 06-25-2007 at 03:00 PM.
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06-25-2007, 03:11 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Having watched Coffey and Langway in 1984, these are my conclusions. Coffey's offense was more impressive than Langway's defense, and Coffey's defense was more impressive than Langway's offense. I never saw Orr at his peak, so in my lifetime, no d-man was more spectacular offensively than Coffey, but I've seen quite a few guys defensively in Langway's league. Both great players, but Coffey did more than Langway and if I'm a GM in 1984 I would rather have Coffey patrol my blueline.
Without question.

Coffey was clearly the superior player that year.

Coffey finshed 2nd in the NHL in both points and assists. He finished with 93 points more than Langway. For Langway tobe better than Cofey, while scoring 93 less points the differences defensively would have had to be beyond gargantuan.

Thnk Scott Stevens vs. Andy Delmore


Quick check of everyone's favorite stat - +/-

Capitals finished the season scoring 82 more goals than they allowed

Scott Stevens +26
Dave Shand +23
Timo Blomqvist +17
Rod Langway +14
Larry Murphy +12
Darren Veitch E

Oilers finished the season scoring 132 more goals than they allowed

Paul Coffey +52
Charlie Huddy +50
Dr. Randy Gregg +40
Kevin Lowe +37
Lee Fogolin +33
Don Jackson +28

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06-25-2007, 05:30 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post

As an aside, Langway's two Norris trophies were highway robbery. Potvin, Bourque, Robinson (in 1983), and even Coffey (in 1984) would have been far better choices. The NHL was being criticized for always picking defenseman who could score alot of points, and the result of the backlash was they gave it to a purely one-dimensional defensive d-man.
Backlash? Over who, Wilson and Carlyle? I wouldn't call it highway robbery to award the best defenseman trophy to a very, very good defensive defenseman.

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06-25-2007, 05:50 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Without question.

Coffey was clearly the superior player that year.

Coffey finshed 2nd in the NHL in both points and assists. He finished with 93 points more than Langway. For Langway tobe better than Cofey, while scoring 93 less points the differences defensively would have had to be beyond gargantuan.

Thnk Scott Stevens vs. Andy Delmore


Quick check of everyone's favorite stat - +/-

Capitals finished the season scoring 82 more goals than they allowed

Scott Stevens +26
Dave Shand +23
Timo Blomqvist +17
Rod Langway +14
Larry Murphy +12
Darren Veitch E

Oilers finished the season scoring 132 more goals than they allowed

Paul Coffey +52
Charlie Huddy +50
Dr. Randy Gregg +40
Kevin Lowe +37
Lee Fogolin +33
Don Jackson +28
We're a little off the beaten path here now but...

Coffey was clearly the better player? That depends on what you value and what your team needs.
I don't care much about the stats. But since you quoted some here is another. In his first three seasons with Pittsburgh he scored 283 points and was a -35. So his +/- on the Oilers dynasty doesn't mean a whole lot.
I do however know what I saw and that was Langway playing virtually flawless defense game in game out. I saw Coffey trying to be Orr and failing miserably on the defensive side.
In my opinion it's a travesty that Coffey has even one Norris. Mark Howe, Bourque or even Potvin were better choices in 85 and 86. They were all better at being defenseman than Coffey.

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Old
06-25-2007, 06:07 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
We're a little off the beaten path here now but...

Coffey was clearly the better player? That depends on what you value and what your team needs.
I don't care much about the stats. But since you quoted some here is another. In his first three seasons with Pittsburgh he scored 283 points and was a -35. So his +/- on the Oilers dynasty doesn't mean a whole lot.
I do however know what I saw and that was Langway playing virtually flawless defense game in game out. I saw Coffey trying to be Orr and failing miserably on the defensive side.
In my opinion it's a travesty that Coffey has even one Norris. Mark Howe, Bourque or even Potvin were better choices in 85 and 86. They were all better at being defenseman than Coffey.

What he did on the Penguins has no bearing on who should have won the Norris in 1983-84. Coffey was clearly the better player.

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Old
06-25-2007, 06:30 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
What he did on the Penguins has no bearing on who should have won the Norris in 1983-84. Coffey was clearly the better player.
You're right it doesn't. I wasn't trying to say it did. I was trying to get across the fact that his plus minus on the Oilers is not worth much.

Clearly the better player? Clearly the pundits that voted thought otherwise.

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Old
06-25-2007, 10:08 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Without question.

Coffey was clearly the superior player that year.

Coffey finshed 2nd in the NHL in both points and assists. He finished with 93 points more than Langway. For Langway tobe better than Cofey, while scoring 93 less points the differences defensively would have had to be beyond gargantuan.

Thnk Scott Stevens vs. Andy Delmore


Quick check of everyone's favorite stat - +/-

Capitals finished the season scoring 82 more goals than they allowed

Scott Stevens +26
Dave Shand +23
Timo Blomqvist +17
Rod Langway +14
Larry Murphy +12
Darren Veitch E

Oilers finished the season scoring 132 more goals than they allowed

Paul Coffey +52
Charlie Huddy +50
Dr. Randy Gregg +40
Kevin Lowe +37
Lee Fogolin +33
Don Jackson +28
Remember that +/- doesn't include PP goals for or against. When those are taken out of the equation, Washington only scored 44 more goals than they allowed while Edmonton scored 128 more goals than they gave up. That's a huge difference, so you would expect the Oiler players to have better +/- marks.

Here's the way I feel they should be judged. Edmonton had 119 points. Washington had 101. So you would have to figure out how many of Edmonton's 119 were because of Coffey, and how many of Washington's 101 were because of Langway. Whoever has the higher total wins. How to figure that out is a complex puzzle which hasn't been statistically proven yet, but let me make the case for Langway.

Washington was 5th overall, one of the best teams in the league. They were 10th in offense and 1st in defense, so obviously the defence was the main reason for their success. Was it because of team defence or because of goaltending? Their two goalies that year, Al Jensen and Pat Riggin were capable, but hardly great. Neither were in the top five in save%. However, the Capitals defence allowed less shots than any other team in the league. So it would stand to reason that the biggest reason for Washington's success was their team defence.

Which players get the most credit for that? There's no perfect stat to measure defence, but logically it would be a) the players with the most icetime and b) those players who are getting the icetime because of their defence. Estimated icetime for `84 shows Langway logging the highest marks on the Caps, and he sure wasn't there for his offence. It should also be noted that Washington had the best PK that year by a wide margin that year. Who led them in SH icetime? Langway. So it can be assumed that Langway deserves credit for the highest "share" of the Caps record that year.

Edmonton had a better record that year, and Coffey was a huge part of it, but we all know he wasn't the biggest part.

Not saying that Langway deserved it over Coffey, just that I don't think you can say that Coffey was clearly superior. The sad part of that season was that Ray Bourque had his best season to date in `84, but his excellent play both offensively and defensively was forgotten by Norris voters as they became fixated on a two-horse race between the all-offence/no-defence Coffey, and the all-defence/no-offence Langway.

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06-25-2007, 10:15 PM
  #40
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a distinction between offensive defenseman, defensive defenseman and all-around defenseman would be helpful here: they really make different decisions on the ice based on their priorities

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06-25-2007, 10:23 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Not saying that Langway deserved it over Coffey, just that I don't think you can say that Coffey was clearly superior. The sad part of that season was that Ray Bourque had his best season to date in `84, but his excellent play both offensively and defensively was forgotten by Norris voters as they became fixated on a two-horse race between the all-offence/no-defence Coffey, and the all-defence/no-offence Langway.
And Potvin was better than all three IMO. 85 points, great defense, physicallity and a touch of mean that the other three just didn't have.

Looking back, I would have rated them in the following order that season:

Potvin
Bourque
Coffey
Langway

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06-25-2007, 10:51 PM
  #42
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nice to see a bunch of us old fogies are joining the discussion

not just the young revisionists

actually having watched them for years is entirely different than citing stats

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Old
06-25-2007, 10:58 PM
  #43
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Remember that +/- doesn't include PP goals for or against. When those are taken out of the equation, Washington only scored 44 more goals than they allowed while Edmonton scored 128 more goals than they gave up. That's a huge difference, so you would expect the Oiler players to have better +/- marks.

Here's the way I feel they should be judged. Edmonton had 119 points. Washington had 101. So you would have to figure out how many of Edmonton's 119 were because of Coffey, and how many of Washington's 101 were because of Langway. Whoever has the higher total wins. How to figure that out is a complex puzzle which hasn't been statistically proven yet, but let me make the case for Langway.

Washington was 5th overall, one of the best teams in the league. They were 10th in offense and 1st in defense, so obviously the defence was the main reason for their success. Was it because of team defence or because of goaltending? Their two goalies that year, Al Jensen and Pat Riggin were capable, but hardly great. Neither were in the top five in save%. However, the Capitals defence allowed less shots than any other team in the league. So it would stand to reason that the biggest reason for Washington's success was their team defence.

Which players get the most credit for that? There's no perfect stat to measure defence, but logically it would be a) the players with the most icetime and b) those players who are getting the icetime because of their defence. Estimated icetime for `84 shows Langway logging the highest marks on the Caps, and he sure wasn't there for his offence. It should also be noted that Washington had the best PK that year by a wide margin that year. Who led them in SH icetime? Langway. So it can be assumed that Langway deserves credit for the highest "share" of the Caps record that year.

Edmonton had a better record that year, and Coffey was a huge part of it, but we all know he wasn't the biggest part.

Not saying that Langway deserved it over Coffey, just that I don't think you can say that Coffey was clearly superior. The sad part of that season was that Ray Bourque had his best season to date in `84, but his excellent play both offensively and defensively was forgotten by Norris voters as they became fixated on a two-horse race between the all-offence/no-defence Coffey, and the all-defence/no-offence Langway.
Great post but I have a problem with the bolded part.
The point of defense is to help prevent goals against. Shouldn't you then also try and figure out how many scoring chances were broken up and shots prevented as this is the main concern for a defenseman? It's at least as important, if not more important than point production for their position.

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06-25-2007, 10:58 PM
  #44
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You're right it doesn't. I wasn't trying to say it did. I was trying to get across the fact that his plus minus on the Oilers is not worth much.

Clearly the better player? Clearly the pundits that voted thought otherwise.
Don't compare Coffey's +/- to Langway's ... but if you notice Coffey had he best mark of any Oilers defenseman .... Langway on the other hand did not for the Caps.

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06-25-2007, 11:05 PM
  #45
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For the Langway lovers out there:

Can you name me the big postseason he had where he shutdown a Bossy or Kerr, and propelled the Caps to a long playoff run ??

Personally Langway was never the best defenseman in the Patrick Division in a given year.

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06-25-2007, 11:17 PM
  #46
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And Potvin was better than all three IMO. 85 points, great defense, physicallity and a touch of mean that the other three just didn't have.

Looking back, I would have rated them in the following order that season:

Potvin
Bourque
Coffey
Langway
No love for Howe? The guy was fantastic!

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06-25-2007, 11:19 PM
  #47
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Don't compare Coffey's +/- to Langway's ... but if you notice Coffey had he best mark of any Oilers defenseman .... Langway on the other hand did not for the Caps.
You're not really going to argue the plus/minus thing are you?

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06-25-2007, 11:24 PM
  #48
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Don't compare Coffey's +/- to Langway's ... but if you notice Coffey had he best mark of any Oilers defenseman .... Langway on the other hand did not for the Caps.
I didn't compare them.

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06-25-2007, 11:28 PM
  #49
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You're not really going to argue the plus/minus thing are you?
Like I said, i wasn't trying to say that because Coffey had the better +/- than Langway he had a better season. The point was to show how they related to the rest of their teams.



As for Howe, 85-86 was his best chance, but he picked th eyear Coffey scored 48 goals as the one to have his best season.

That being said Howe was a better overall player than Langway.

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06-25-2007, 11:40 PM
  #50
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No love for Howe? The guy was fantastic!
Yes he was, but in 1984, the year in question, he wasn't one of the best. Probably top 10, but not top 4.

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