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Old
06-26-2007, 01:16 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
you are missing the point...I'm sure Hickey is a fine hockey player and will play in the NHL some day (well, I hope so anyway). Actually, I hope he wins the Calder as a 19 year-old and becomes a perennial Norris trophy winner. That would be great. so no, other than his height there is nothing really bad to say about him EXCEPT THAT most "experts" seem to think that Shattenkirk or McDonough or even Blum have a good as chance or better to be as good or better than Hickey. Forgive me for tending to believe the opinion of the majority of the hockey world over what appears to be the minority opinion that the kings staff shares. I actually envy you for having such faith in the pick.
Believe me, I have plenty of skepticism. I'm just trying to counterbalance the negativity, and I'm making an honest attempt of doing it with logic as opposed to cheerleading. I wrote in a number of posts that it will be several years until we can truly judge this pick, so my purpose is really not to trumpet this pick, but to make accountable those who are so quick to condemn it.

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06-26-2007, 01:24 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by took420s View Post
Right, maybe they have a whole sack of them with a bunch of names just in case?
They do... they have to... but, sometimes, they don't have the name that they need. I remember a few years ago--I think that it was with either the Brown or Tukonen selection (maybe both)--Dave Taylor and crew handed the kid a jersey with no name on it. I still remember that because of how tacky that seemed (and still seems). Even if you don't think that that player will slip that far, be ready in case he does. Saving a few hundred bucks isn't worth looking silly in front of the whole hockey world and having the kid conclude that he wasn't one of their top choices. That screw-up led me to believe that they don't just have every name ready; at least the Kings didn't that time. I don't know if it's more common to have every name now or if Lombardi's crew is better about that sort of thing. I don't think that it matters in the case of Hickey, though, since there's no way that they were going to come to the draft without the name plate of someone that they were so high on and were sure would be available.

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06-26-2007, 01:51 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by KingFan24 View Post
Believe me, I have plenty of skepticism. I'm just trying to counterbalance the negativity, and I'm making an honest attempt of doing it with logic as opposed to cheerleading. I wrote in a number of posts that it will be several years until we can truly judge this pick, so my purpose is really not to trumpet this pick, but to make accountable those who are so quick to condemn it.
Well said! I, too, think that skepticism of the pick is perfectly fine and justified, but some are coming across as judgmental when I think that it's premature. Have your doubts, but give it time.

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06-26-2007, 02:48 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingFan24 View Post
While you're at it, I would be curious if you could uncover for me one single negative written statement about Hickey that mentions as a negative anything other than his height.
How's about ESPN ...

Quote:
"Thomas Hickey, D, Kings: Huh? The Kings really went off the board here. Hickey is considered less skilled in his own zone than other defenseman in the draft, but also has a bit more offense than most. He is undersized, but has enough experience that he could step into the NHL right away. More likely, Hickey spends time in the AHL to work on his defense and get a bit more size. Hickey is not a typical Western Hockey League defenseman and will end up being in the mold of a Jaroslav Modry, with a good shot and decent power play skills. " Fantasy owners can feel free to ignore him for now.
IF that's not NEGATIVE I don't know what is
Quote:
The Kings reached for defenceman (that's Canadian for defenseman) Thomas Hickey at No. 4, which is apparently the equivalent of the Grizzlies taking Big Baby Davis or Josh McRoberts at No. 4 in Thursday's NBA draft. Everyone's shocked -- Hickey was ranked anywhere from 13th to 40th on the various draft lists. That leads to Kings exec Dean Lombardi's admitting to TSN's crew that they tried to trade down and failed. (Los Angeles Kings hockey ... feel the excitement!)
ooooooooooh BURN !


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070625
+
http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/ho...ory?id=2913904

OK I know a.) it's ESPN , b.) one of them is under the Fantasy team section, and c.) it's not REALLY all that bad, but all you asked for was ONE single negative written statement about Hickey, excluding height, and I gave it to you


Last edited by Puck U: 06-26-2007 at 03:02 AM.
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06-26-2007, 01:16 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
How's about ESPN ...

IF that's not NEGATIVE I don't know what is
ooooooooooh BURN !


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070625
+
http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/ho...ory?id=2913904

OK I know a.) it's ESPN , b.) one of them is under the Fantasy team section, and c.) it's not REALLY all that bad, but all you asked for was ONE single negative written statement about Hickey, excluding height, and I gave it to you
With your attempt being so desperate and poor, I thank you for deconstructing your example yourself, thus sparing me from having to do so myself.


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06-26-2007, 02:05 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I assume he was referring to Boston, but Hickey wasn't top 5 overall, but in their top 5 choices at #8 - not the same thing
You don't know this. McGuire said something along the lines of people should not be too suprised because atleast one other team had Hickey in their top 5 prospects. IMO that means another team had Hickey ranked in the top 5 overall.

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06-26-2007, 04:38 PM
  #32
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"The man has a plan and he's sticking to it. In the end, it will pay off. Sure, he made some rash decisions, but time was short when he was hired and he had to bridge the gap with what he had to work with and with the crop of prospects that are breaking in to the NHL. His free agent signings were temporary patches to hold positions until some of the younger players are ready to step in to regular roles".

well, i dunno..he wasn't under pressure to lock down Cloutie for two years before even the season starts... that was his worst mistake nd maybe his only true mistake. The LaBarbera effect was due to this matter.

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06-26-2007, 07:09 PM
  #33
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Lombardi's track record for drafting players in the first round is very questionable.

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06-26-2007, 08:07 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
Lombardi's track record for drafting players in the first round is very questionable.
Andrei Zyuzin, Marco Sturm, Patrick Marleau, Scott Hannan, Brad Stuart, Jonathan Cheechoo, Jeff Jillson, Marcel Goc and Mike Morris is a "very questionable" first round record? Do realize that all but two of those are currently in the NHL, three of which are stud players and three very solid players?

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06-26-2007, 08:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
Lombardi's track record for drafting players in the first round is very questionable.
I've posted elsewhere, and will repeat it here ... Lombardi's drafting of his first THREE Picks overall has been very questionable !!! So to blindly have faith in his draft picks isn't all too smart an idea ... he's often picked guys that have been TOTAL BUSTS and never seen ONE GAME of NHL ice time ....

Lombardi's draft record in San Jose
Look how many Stanley Cups they won with these kids he drafted as his Top 3 picks from '95 until he was fired in 2003.
{3+ years is enough time to rate these picks}

1995
12th - Teemu Riihijarvi (RW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
38th - Peter Roed (C) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
64th - Marko Makinen (LW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
{Yes I know he got the goalies in the LATE rounds, BUT IF he KNEW they'd be so good why not draft them earlier?}

1996
2nd - Andrei Zyuzin (D) = 464 NHL Games, NHL Regular
21st - Marco Sturm (C) = 680 NHL Games, NHL Regular
55th - Terry Friesen (G) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

1997
2nd - Patrick Marleau (C) = 717 NHL Games, NHL STAR
23rd - Scott Hannan (D) = 508 NHL Games, NHL Regular
82nd - Adam Colagiacomo (RW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

1998
3rd - Brad Stuart (D) = 507 NHL Games, NHL Regular
29th - Jonathan Cheechoo (RW) = 305 NHL Games, NHL STAR
65th - Eric Laplante (LW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

1999
14th - Jeff Jillson (D) = 140 NHL Games, Didn't live up to potential, bubble NHL'r at best BUST ?
82nd - Mark Concannon (F) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
111th - Willie Levesque (F) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

2000
41st - Tero Maatta (D) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
104th - Jon DiSalvatore (RW) 5 NHL Games, BUST
142nd - Michal Pinc (C) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

2001
20th - Marcel Goc (C) = 159 NHL Games, NHL Regular
106th - Christian Ehrhoff (D) = 187 NHL Games, NHL Regular
107th - Dmitri Patzold (G) = Never saw the NHL, good AHL goalie, Maybe too early to tell, BUST ?

2002
27th - Mike Morris (F) = 0 NHL, in AHL, too early to tell, BUST ?
52nd - Dan Spang (D) = 0 NHL, in AHL, too early to tell, BUST ?
86th - Jonas Fiedler (RW) = 0 NHL, BUST

So out of his 24 TOP 3 picks over 8 years as GM / in charge of Draft .... Lombardi and the Sharks have ...

0 = Stanley Cups
3,672 = NHL GAMES
2 = STAR NHL Players {Marleau & Cheechoo}
6 = Regular NHL Players {Zyuzin, Sturm, Hannan, Stuart, Goc, Ehrhoff} Jillson's a bubble player at best !
16 = BUST's or a potential BUST out of 24 draftee's from his FIRST THREE PICKS !

Quote:
YES Osprey, he's hit a handful of homeruns, but TWO THIRDS of his EARLY picks HAVE TURNED OUT TO BE BUSTS AND NEVER SEEN A SINGLE NHL GAME !
Looking that over I'd tend to say Lombardi does try to swing for the fence and has hit a couple home runs, Marleau & Cheechoo, but more often than not his HIGH RISK / HIGH REWARD picks have often BUSTED, and have NEVER EVEN SEEN A GAME in the NHL ... Lombardi has had multiple years where ALL THREE of his top picks were BUSTS and never played in the NHL.


Last edited by Puck U: 06-26-2007 at 08:30 PM.
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06-26-2007, 08:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
Andrei Zyuzin, Marco Sturm, Patrick Marleau, Scott Hannan, Brad Stuart, Jonathan Cheechoo, Jeff Jillson, Marcel Goc and Mike Morris is a "very questionable" first round record? Do realize that all but two of those are currently in the NHL, three of which are stud players and three very solid players?

Cheechoo was a 2nd round pick, my comment was on his first round picks, his top picks of the draft, that he is very sure of.

I am not saying he has not done a good job, but many of those picks did not pan out, and i believe he often drafts players that ISS or other scouts have rated much higher.

My point is that he has had his share of busts in the mix, in the first round, so this #4 pick of Friday night is not necessarily going to pan out (but i understand that all picks might be busts)

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06-26-2007, 08:35 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
I've posted elsewhere, and will repeat it here ... Lombardi's drafting of his first THREE Picks overall has been very questionable !!! So to blindly have faith in his draft picks isn't all too smart an idea ... he's often picked guys that have been TOTAL BUSTS and never seen ONE GAME of NHL ice time ....

Lombardi's draft record in San Jose
Look how many Stanley Cups they won with these kids he drafted as his Top 3 picks from '95 until he was fired in 2003.
{3+ years is enough time to rate these picks}

1995
12th - Teemu Riihijarvi (RW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
38th - Peter Roed (C) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
64th - Marko Makinen (LW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
{Yes I know he got the goalies in the LATE rounds, BUT IF he KNEW they'd be so good why not draft them earlier?}

1996
2nd - Andrei Zyuzin (D) = 464 NHL Games, NHL Regular
21st - Marco Sturm (C) = 680 NHL Games, NHL Regular
55th - Terry Friesen (G) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

1997
2nd - Patrick Marleau (C) = 717 NHL Games, NHL STAR
23rd - Scott Hannan (D) = 508 NHL Games, NHL Regular
82nd - Adam Colagiacomo (RW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

1998
3rd - Brad Stuart (D) = 507 NHL Games, NHL Regular
29th - Jonathan Cheechoo (RW) = 305 NHL Games, NHL STAR
65th - Eric Laplante (LW) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

1999
14th - Jeff Jillson (D) = 140 NHL Games, Didn't live up to potential, bubble NHL'r at best BUST ?
82nd - Mark Concannon (F) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
111th - Willie Levesque (F) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

2000
41st - Tero Maatta (D) = Never saw the NHL, BUST
104th - Jon DiSalvatore (RW) 5 NHL Games, BUST
142nd - Michal Pinc (C) = Never saw the NHL, BUST

2001
20th - Marcel Goc (C) = 159 NHL Games, NHL Regular
106th - Christian Ehrhoff (D) = 187 NHL Games, NHL Regular
107th - Dmitri Patzold (G) = Never saw the NHL, good AHL goalie, Maybe too early to tell, BUST ?

2002
27th - Mike Morris (F) = 0 NHL, in AHL, too early to tell, BUST ?
52nd - Dan Spang (D) = 0 NHL, in AHL, too early to tell, BUST ?
86th - Jonas Fiedler (RW) = 0 NHL, BUST

So out of his 24 TOP 3 picks over 8 years as GM / in charge of Draft .... Lombardi and the Sharks have ...

0 = Stanley Cups
3,672 = NHL GAMES
2 = STAR NHL Players {Marleau & Cheechoo}
6 = Regular NHL Players {Zyuzin, Sturm, Hannan, Stuart, Goc, Ehrhoff} Jillson's a bubble player at best !
16 = BUST's or a potential BUST out of 24 draftee's from his FIRST THREE PICKS !



Looking that over I'd tend to say Lombardi does try to swing for the fence and has hit a couple home runs, Marleau & Cheechoo, but more often than not his HIGH RISK / HIGH REWARD picks have often BUSTED, and have NEVER EVEN SEEN A GAME in the NHL ... Lombardi has had multiple years where ALL THREE of his top picks were BUSTS and never played in the NHL.

Good Summary. The later round picks might not be considered busts, but i do consider the first few rounds as failures if a GM selects a player that does not pan out.

Having said that, many teams leave the draft selection day to their scouting team (example in Montreal, i believe Timmens does all the selections with his scouting team)

Not sure about Lombardi?

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06-26-2007, 08:42 PM
  #38
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I think too many people give Lombardi credit for drafting Zyuzin, Marleau and Stuart. I can see bringing up guys like Cheechoo or Hannan. But Zyuzin and Marleau were #2 overall picks....and Stuart was a #3. It is hard to blow those.....Do you give Craig Partick accolades for drafting Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin? No because anyone with half a brain can pick a star player with a top 3 pick. Just like in this draft.....if Lombardi would have drafted Turris he would have looked like a genius.

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06-26-2007, 08:49 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck U View Post

0 = Stanley Cups
3,672 = NHL GAMES
2 = STAR NHL Players {Marleau & Cheechoo}
6 = Regular NHL Players {Zyuzin, Sturm, Hannan, Stuart, Goc, Ehrhoff} Jillson's a bubble player at best !
16 = BUST's or a potential BUST out of 24 draftee's from his FIRST THREE PICKS !


.

Looks like he's overdue for an NHL Star.

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06-26-2007, 08:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
I think too many people give Lombardi credit for drafting Zyuzin, Marleau and Stuart. I can see bringing up guys like Cheechoo or Hannan. But Zyuzin and Marleau were #2 overall picks....and Stuart was a #3. It is hard to blow those.....Do you give Craig Partick accolades for drafting Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin? No because anyone with half a brain can pick a star player with a top 3 pick. Just like in this draft.....if Lombardi would have drafted Turris he would have looked like a genius.
Good Point. so are you saying even regular people like us can make a top 3 pick

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06-26-2007, 09:07 PM
  #41
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Hell yeah ... Squidy had his top 4 pick locked up already in December

J/K ya Squidy

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06-26-2007, 09:13 PM
  #42
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I am pretty sure his scouts are responsible for the 2003 draft in which they picked up a couple of pretty good players.

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06-26-2007, 09:19 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by 10 ft. pole View Post
I am pretty sure his scouts are responsible for the 2003 draft in which they picked up a couple of pretty good players.
True.....but like we found out last year....the GM has the ultimate decision in who is picked. I believe that the 2006 draft would have been very different for the Kings if Taylor was still GM. Yet the same scouting staff was there. So I will not give Dean credit for the Sharks 2003 draft.

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06-26-2007, 10:03 PM
  #44
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Right see ... that's where I LOVE all the double standards regarding Dean ...

Quote:
"well Lombardi gets credit for 2003 draft pics because even though he was FIRED before that, it was his lasting Aura that made the scouts pick those players"
vs.
Quote:
"but of course Lombardi has to get credit for the 2006 draft, I mean Dave Taylor was fired as GM so it was Lombardi that called all the shots"
Quote:
"Lombardi is SO GREAT look at what a WINNER the SHARKS are" {Stanley Cups = 0}
vs.
Quote:
"Dave Taylor SUCKS he should be FIRED, we never won the CUP with him" {Stanley Cups = 0}
you can't have it both ways people !

and as my list clearly shows maybe Lombardi isn't the guy we want picking our draftee's ... well in the first 3 rounds anyways well unless we have the 2nd or 3rd overall draft pick that is

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06-26-2007, 10:53 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
Cheechoo was a 2nd round pick...
Ah, I saw that he was taken 29th overall and forgot that the league had a couple fewer teams that year. Still, one could make the argument that it doesn't really matter, since that would be the 1st round nowadays.

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06-26-2007, 11:00 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
I think too many people give Lombardi credit for drafting Zyuzin, Marleau and Stuart. I can see bringing up guys like Cheechoo or Hannan. But Zyuzin and Marleau were #2 overall picks....and Stuart was a #3. It is hard to blow those.....
We're debating whether his 1st-round draft history is "very questionable," not how good of a drafter he is. Those early picks are quite relevant to this particular discussion.

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06-26-2007, 11:59 PM
  #47
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We could also be debating Lombardi's track record with his FIRST THREE Picks overall every year from his GM days in SJ from 1995 'til 2002 too
... if you WANT Osprey

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06-27-2007, 12:59 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
We're debating whether his 1st-round draft history is "very questionable," not how good of a drafter he is. Those early picks are quite relevant to this particular discussion.
I suppose........ I am just saying that when people bring up his great draft history that those 3 players are always mentioned. When you have picks in the top 3 you would have to have a really poor draft pool or be really irresponsible to foul it up. I likewise would not say that Craig Patrick was a genius for getting players like Fleury, Malkin or Crosby. Those are practically gimme picks.

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06-27-2007, 06:00 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
Ah, I saw that he was taken 29th overall and forgot that the league had a couple fewer teams that year. Still, one could make the argument that it doesn't really matter, since that would be the 1st round nowadays.
yes, either way i hope the Kings players develop nicely.

I am not a Kings fan, but i do enjoy watching them, ever since the Bruce MnNall days

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06-27-2007, 06:02 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
I suppose........ I am just saying that when people bring up his great draft history that those 3 players are always mentioned. When you have picks in the top 3 you would have to have a really poor draft pool or be really irresponsible to foul it up. I likewise would not say that Craig Patrick was a genius for getting players like Fleury, Malkin or Crosby. Those are practically gimme picks.
Is it safe to say that even John Ferguson Jr. in Toronto would not screw a top 3 pick ?

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