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Old
06-26-2007, 10:49 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
I think this is the first time I've ever heard the thought of bringing in an ELITE defenseman like Robyn Regehr as a "dumb move".

Wow.

Laughable.
you of course leave out the cost, players and cap killing contract that doesn't solve our primary need. We need a second scoring line before a $6M defenseman.

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06-26-2007, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majoritystorm View Post
This is the dumbest thing you have ever suggested Jon RX, you are usually right, but here you are wrong. You do not trade young cheap defensemen like Sauer, for a cap busting guy. And Robyn Regehr is not as elite as you describe him. He is not the type of guy I pay top dollar for. Yes he is awesome, but he is a STAY AT HOME DEFENSEMAN. Not at the expense you are asking for.
I can't imagine that a hockey fan cannot appreciate stay at home defensemen. I don't understand what a guy like you cannot see in Regehr.

And yes. He is an ELITE defenseman. Possibly the best stay at home guy in the entire league.

Regehr is just that good. We don't see him much with him being in the west, but he is that damn good.

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06-26-2007, 10:52 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSather99 View Post
you of course leave out the cost, players and cap killing contract that doesn't solve our primary need. We need a second scoring line before a $6M defenseman.
And you, of course, leave out the fact that the cap, if the current trend continues, will rise again. Shanny and Straka's contracts will be off the books. Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Cherepanov, Korpikoski, etc. will all be older and ready to step in and will be cheaper options than older UFA forwards.

I can go on and on a bout how this won't be a cap busting move or a bad move at all.

Should I continue?

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06-26-2007, 10:56 PM
  #29
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AGAIN...

Robyn Regehr is not as elite as you describe him. He is not the type of guy I pay top dollar for. Yes he is awesome, but he is a STAY AT HOME DEFENSEMAN. Not at the expense you are asking for. The only way we will make multiple runs at the cup in the next 5 years is by limiting the situations in which we actually have to pay people the 5 to 7 million dollar contracts. If we have a supposedly upcomming star in Staal, and a potential shutdown second pairing guy like Sauer, to go with an inexpensive yet effective Gigardi and an extremely underrated defender in Tyutin, without counting what we can get from Potter, Sanguinetti or Baranka, we are in an enviable position, because we wont have to pay these guys top dollar until they turn 25, Tyutin will come first, think about that... We should take advantage of how from a cap standpoint, this will put us in position to sign offensive guys, which we don't have enough of in our system.

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06-26-2007, 10:58 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majoritystorm View Post
AGAIN...

Robyn Regehr is not as elite as you describe him. He is not the type of guy I pay top dollar for. Yes he is awesome, but he is a STAY AT HOME DEFENSEMAN. Not at the expense you are asking for. The only way we will make multiple runs at the cup in the next 5 years is by limiting the situations in which we actually have to pay people the 5 to 7 million dollar contracts. If we have a supposedly upcomming star in Staal, and a potential shutdown second pairing guy like Sauer, to go with an inexpensive yet effective Gigardi and an extremely underrated defender in Tyutin, without counting what we can get from Potter, Sanguinetti or Baranka, we are in an enviable position, because we wont have to pay these guys top dollar until they turn 25, Tyutin will come first, think about that... We should take advantage of how from a cap standpoint, this will put us in position to sign offensive guys, which we don't have enough of in our system.
dont count Potter, another NHL team could still sign him.

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06-26-2007, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
And you, of course, leave out the fact that the cap, if the current trend continues, will rise again. Shanny and Straka's contracts will be off the books. Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Cherepanov, Korpikoski, etc. will all be older and ready to step in and will be cheaper options than older UFA forwards.

I can go on and on a bout how this won't be a cap busting move or a bad move at all.

Should I continue?
So, our primary need is a "second" scoring line and your solution is to not worry because 2/3 of our first line will be retiring. Most of the forwards you mention, besides Cherepanov, are questionable top two line forwards. They will need a veteran or two to help ease them into the NHL.

You say it will take Staal 5 years to reach peak but you expect the above mentioned forwards to become top forwards sooner?

The state of the NHL is not in great shape. The cap going up very year is not a guarantee. They received dismal TV ratings for the Stanley cup which does not bode well for future TV revenue.

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06-26-2007, 11:02 PM
  #32
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Scott Stevens after 94/95 was "only" a defensive defenseman.

You're really, really not being fair to Regehr here and making a statement that you somehow think defensive defenseman are somehow worth less than others. We have puck moving guys like Sanguinetti coming up in the system. Tyutin has a great shot and I can see him developing a two-way game. Baranka has offensive potential as well.

The only true TRUE top pairing defensive guy we have is Staal. If you have a defensive corps built around Staal and Regehr, we'd be set for a long time. You have complimentary guys like Tyutin, Sauer, Sanguinetti, and Girardi to add in there to make the defense work like a clock. But you have to have top pairing guys.

We don't have a single defensive prospect that is a potential top pairing guy outside of Staal.

Regehr is something we do not have in the system and is someone who is about as hard as possible to find on the open market.

Regehr is a guy that we should want to pay the money for. He adds a whole different dimension to the defense, as far as I'm concerned. Right now we don't have a defenseman that can TOUCH him in terms of play and talent.

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06-26-2007, 11:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSather99 View Post
So, our primary need is a "second" scoring line and your solution is to not worry because 2/3 of our first line will be retiring. Most of the forwards you mention, besides Cherepanov, are questionable top two line forwards. They will need a veteran or two to help ease them into the NHL.

You say it will take Staal 5 years to reach peak but you expect the above mentioned forwards to become top forwards sooner?

The state of the NHL is not in great shape. The cap going up very year is not a guarantee. They received dismal TV ratings for the Stanley cup which does not bode well for future TV revenue.
A veteran or two for help on the 2nd line will not cost that much money. Much less than you apparently think. 2nd line players are 3M or so players, and it's that way mostly across the league. We have 2 3M players retiring. We add in another 2 3M players. It's pretty simple math here. You aren't losing that much cap room, if any.

Forwards ALWAYS develop quicker than defenseman. You are a knowledgeable hockey guy. You should know that. There's no point in even trying to debate it. It's just a fact (yes, there are exceptions).

Also, you should know that the NHL is a gate receipt business. Not a TV ratings business. The only reason the cap has increased is because they've had very stable attendance and merchandise sales. TV deals are nice, but it's not what makes the NHL money. Again, this is pretty commonly known.

Defense WINS championships. Have we not learned that? A great defensive corps with a great goaltender and a solid forward corps will win us a Cup. Especially if we still have Jagr at that point.

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06-26-2007, 11:14 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
Most definitely.
I would have to strongly disagree with you here Jon. We have Staal as our elite stay at home defenseman in the making, so getting one shouldn't be top on our list.

What we lack are 1st line potential prospects and Bourret is really one of our 2 only forwards who actually has a chance to make it to a top line. No way do I want to get rid of him.

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06-26-2007, 11:17 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
I would have to strongly disagree with you here Jon. We have Staal as our elite stay at home defenseman in the making, so getting one shouldn't be top on our list.

What we lack are 1st line potential prospects and Bourret is really one of our 2 only forwards who actually has a chance to make it to a top line. No way do I want to get rid of him.
Staal is still quite a bit away at being an "elite" defenseman. Even if we signed Regehr for 5 years, Staal would just be coming into his own then, most likely, IMO.

Which is why I don't really count him as anywhere near elite yet.

As I said, Bourret is one of the few guys I'd be very hesitant to move.

Staal is a big no no. As is Cherepanov.

I think that Callahan is tradeable. As is Dubinsky.

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06-26-2007, 11:21 PM
  #36
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Look, we've all stated we need a #1 defenseman. I don't think Regehr is an 'elite' defenseman. I'm not a scout, but to me an elite defenseman is one that is a game breaker. One that can shut down an opponent's attack as well as be able to contribute offensively substantially(ie-Niedermayer, Lidstrom etc.). He hasn't hit the 30 point mark once in his career. By adding a guy with so much grit and is strong on his skates and okay with his mobility, I think Regehr would be a prime choice to come here. We all wish that guys like Pock and Tyutin would shoot more. Maybe it has to do with the system in place, but don't t you think by adding that shut down big guy on the blueline can allow some of these guys to relax a bit?

Maybe we can pick up Kovalev and send him quickly up to Alberta so he can be reunited with Iron Mike.

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06-26-2007, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
Staal is still quite a bit away at being an "elite" defenseman. Even if we signed Regehr for 5 years, Staal would just be coming into his own then, most likely, IMO.

Which is why I don't really count him as anywhere near elite yet.

As I said, Bourret is one of the few guys I'd be very hesitant to move.

Staal is a big no no. As is Cherepanov.

I think that Callahan is tradeable. As is Dubinsky.
Agreed, Staal is definitely years away from hitting his potential, but i'd rather try to sign a top tier UFA dman for free (well, meaning not giving up any youth). Even if that meant waiting til next summer or the year after.

Cally i'd be very hesitant to trade but he's definitely not "untouchable". Just love the kids work ethic and i'd hate to see that go. Orts with skill, like i've said...i'd be pissed if he was traded.

I love Dubinsky, definitely one of my favorite prospects, but like you said, he is very tradeable at this point.

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06-26-2007, 11:26 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majoritystorm View Post
This is the dumbest thing you have ever suggested Jon RX, you are usually right, but here you are wrong. You do not trade young cheap defensemen like Sauer in a salary cap era, for a cap busting guy that I will need to pay to keep, especially after giving all that AWAY. And Robyn Regehr is not as elite as you describe him. He is not the type of guy I pay top dollar for. Yes he is awesome, but he is a STAY AT HOME DEFENSEMAN. Not at the expense you are asking for. The only way we will make multiple runs at the cup in the next 5 years is by limiting the situations in which we actually have to pay people the 5 to 7 million dollar contracts. If we have a supposedly upcomming star in Staal, and a potential shutdown second pairing guy like Sauer, to go with an inexpensive yet effective Gigardi and an extremely underrated defender in Tyutin, without counting what we can get from Potter, Sanguinetti or Baranka, we are in an enviable position, because we wont have to pay these guys top dollar until they turn 25, Tyutin will come first, think about that... We should take advantage of how from a cap standpoint, this will put us in position to sign offensive guys, which we don't have enough of in our system.
There is only a difference of 4 years between Tyutin and Regehr, and since seeing Tyutin at the NHL level, I'm not sold on the fact that he'll become what Regehr is, let alone a top-pairing defenseman. Tyutin has potential, and is 4 years younger, but Regehr is a sure thing. This team is developing as it's making a run for the cup. You would be crazy to think that the Rangers wouldn't make a move for a guy like him, if Staal, Cherepanov, or Montoya were not asked for in the deal.

Bottom line is, if you can trade Prucha, who can be replaced by a guy like Cherepanov, Dawes, Callahan, Dubinsky, in the forseeable future, and trade a guy like Tyutin with him to get a defender of Regehr's caliber, you do it.

Calling it a dumb move isn't smart either, because I'm willing to bet that if you put 10 GM's in Glen Sather's shoes in this situation, as to whether or not to trade Prucha and Tyutin for Regehr, 9 out of 10 of them would. It's just a matter of what Sutter would ask for. If he asks for Staal, I hang up the phone immediately. I'd be willing to add a 1st rounder to that proposal to keep them from asking for Staal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
A veteran or two for help on the 2nd line will not cost that much money. Much less than you apparently think. 2nd line players are 3M or so players, and it's that way mostly across the league. We have 2 3M players retiring. We add in another 2 3M players. It's pretty simple math here. You aren't losing that much cap room, if any.
That won't be a problem.

The only problem would be Regehr looking for nearly 6 million. I love his defensive play, I think he's on a level with Adam Foote and Scott Hannan in terms of best defensive defensemen in the league, but nearly 6 million sounds very expensive for him.

Quote:
Forwards ALWAYS develop quicker than defenseman. You are a knowledgeable hockey guy. You should know that. There's no point in even trying to debate it. It's just a fact (yes, there are exceptions).
Yes, and that's why trading Prucha, Tyutin, and a 1st wouldn't be a bad deal for Regehr. I think Callahan and or Dawes could come up and score 20 given the ice time to do so. I think both MIGHT be able to score 30 if given ample power play time.

Quote:
Also, you should know that the NHL is a gate receipt business. Not a TV ratings business. The only reason the cap has increased is because they've had very stable attendance and merchandise sales. TV deals are nice, but it's not what makes the NHL money. Again, this is pretty commonly known.
The NHL hasn't had great tv ratings since the Rangers won the cup. Hockey was at it's high-point with the casual fan then. Then we had this strike, and a lot of people stopped giving a **** about hockey.

Quote:
Defense WINS championships. Have we not learned that? A great defensive corps with a great goaltender and a solid forward corps will win us a Cup. Especially if we still have Jagr at that point.
Like I said to MS, you'd have to be crazy to think that they wouldn't make that deal if that's what it took to get Regehr. Carolina showed us last year that you don't have to have a ton of offensive firepower from the backline to win a cup. But we've got a guy who can be effective, given the chance, in Rozsival... if he shoots the puck consistently, and hits the net. The guy's got an absolute laser of a shot.

Look at it, and this is not the order of what I think the pairings would be...

Regehr-Staal
Rozsival-Malik (Him being waived is just a wet dream)
Mara-Girardi

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06-26-2007, 11:26 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
Staal is still quite a bit away at being an "elite" defenseman. Even if we signed Regehr for 5 years, Staal would just be coming into his own then, most likely, IMO.

Which is why I don't really count him as anywhere near elite yet.

As I said, Bourret is one of the few guys I'd be very hesitant to move.

Staal is a big no no. As is Cherepanov.

I think that Callahan is tradeable. As is Dubinsky.
I don't mind seeing Dawes get moved. Maybe Cally, but not Dubi. Dubi will be a solid 2nd line C in the years to come I think. We will have Anisimov on the top line and Dubi on the second. I like Bourret and think he has alot to offer. I;m on the fence as far as Prucha goes, I love the kid and I don't think he's been utilized to his full potential, I'd hate to see him leave and start tearing up the league.

As far as our D corp goes, look at our team defense this year, pretty impressive considering we don't have any real "household names".
They play in front of Lundqvist...

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06-26-2007, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
A veteran or two for help on the 2nd line will not cost that much money. Much less than you apparently think. 2nd line players are 3M or so players, and it's that way mostly across the league. We have 2 3M players retiring. We add in another 2 3M players. It's pretty simple math here. You aren't losing that much cap room, if any.
I'm tired and going to bed. I'll just leave it off with this. Defense is not our problem. It's not why we lost to Buffalo. Scoring goals, that is our problem. Regehr does not change that.

The rangers are rumored to be going after Gomez/Drury hard and put them as our 2nd line forward/center. They will cost 5-6M (not $3M). We can not win(Stanley Cup) with a second line center like Cullen, which is a $3M guy like you were talking about.

Shannahan and Straka are cheap first line players only because this is the only place they want to play. Based on production and put them on the open market, add 2-3M to their contracts. So don't expect to replace their production with their salaries.

You can not compare Staal's talent with the forwards you mentioned. Staal will be a top defensman long before they are scoring 30 + goals on the top two lines.

Let's not kid ourselves. Revenues (Salary cap) will not increase year by year by hitting the fan that is paying to get in to watch the game. It's very close to being too expensive.

The NHL needs TV and to sell the game. You want the cap to go from 40 to 50 million in a couple of years. As a ticket holder will you put up with a ticket price that increases 25% every two years?

Let's just agree to disagree.

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06-26-2007, 11:29 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSather99 View Post
I'm tired and going to bed. I'll just leave it off with this. Defense is not our problem. It's not why we lost to Buffalo. Scoring goals, that is our problem. Regehr does not change that.
Well after watching the entire regular season/playoffs it is very easy to say that Regehr could fit in and stabilize that blueline. Like I've said above, this guy can shut people down. Is he Zdeno Chara? No. Is there one defenseman on our team right now that you would be scared to go into the corners with? To me the answer is also no.

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06-26-2007, 11:39 PM
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Also, I'd be willing to say that blowing 2 goal leads is our problem.

Regehr would certainly help us in that aspect...

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06-26-2007, 11:43 PM
  #43
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Also, I'd be willing to say that blowing 2 goal leads is our problem.

Regehr would certainly help us in that aspect...
It wasn't a constant problem, it was for a month or so when we were playing like crap. The team picked it up and didn't blow as many.

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06-26-2007, 11:49 PM
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It wasn't a constant problem, it was for a month or so when we were playing like crap. The team picked it up and didn't blow as many.
It was a consistent problem all year. C'mon. It even happened in the playoffs once, I believe.

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06-26-2007, 11:52 PM
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It was a consistent problem all year. C'mon. It even happened in the playoffs once, I believe.
I won't believe it until I see hard evidence, I really don't think it was a consistent problem.

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06-26-2007, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
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I won't believe it until I see hard evidence, I really don't think it was a consistent problem.
As of March 13th they had 12 blown 2 goal leads:

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/ho...rtigofree.html

I don't know how many they finished the year with nor do I actually know where to find those stats.

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06-27-2007, 12:00 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
As of March 13th they had 12 blown 2 goal leads:

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/ho...rtigofree.html

I don't know how many they finished the year with nor do I actually know where to find those stats.
12 blown leads from a 2 goal lead is embarrassing.

I'd bet my job that the Rangers were #1 in the league to blow a 2 goal league and I agree that was one of our worst problems if not the worst problem our team had all season.


That nugget of info definaltey helps your case..

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06-27-2007, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
12 blown leads from a 2 goal lead is embarrassing.

I'd bet my job that the Rangers were #1 in the league to blow a 2 goal league and I agree that was one of our worst problems if not the worst problem our team had all season.


That nugget of info definaltey helps your case..
I actually am trying this newfangled "NHL Stats Machine" thing on the NHL.com site and it's very interesting with how indepth you can get with the various team stats.

But they still don't list blown two goal leads even there!

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06-27-2007, 12:05 AM
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As of March 13th they had 12 blown 2 goal leads:
.

That is a sickening statistic. That has to be some kinda record.

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06-27-2007, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
As of March 13th they had 12 blown 2 goal leads:

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/ho...rtigofree.html

I don't know how many they finished the year with nor do I actually know where to find those stats.
They blew 12 but it seemed to me the nightmare only lasted about a month or two. I'm not saying they didn't blow a bunch but they did pull there heads out and start playing alot better. I remember a game against Pittsburgh with 2 short handed goals against and a blown lead that made me want to cry. My argument is that they didn't do it consistently through out the season, they didn't blow three 2 goal leads a month for 4 months, they blew 12 in two months or so and thats when we noticed, if it had been spread out we wouldn't be focusing on it as much.

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