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Carter, Richards and them...

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Old
07-07-2007, 03:27 AM
  #76
Jester
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Originally Posted by markzab View Post
Jester, just change your name to Pitkanen Fluffer already.

I understand you LOVED the kid but I find myself passing over most of your posts recently because it's been the same Pitkanen fluffing for about a week now.

We get your point man.

Move on.
my posts have less to do with fluffing Pitkanen, and more to do with criticizing Holmgren.

but skip over if you wish.

most fascinating part of this is that some of the people cheering this trade are the same ones i've seen complaining about Justin Williams getting moved... and that almost won us a Cup.


Last edited by Jester: 07-07-2007 at 04:16 AM.
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07-07-2007, 07:10 AM
  #77
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Richards isn't going anywhere. Don't worry. He's not going to earn a deal to make him a problem. Carter, on the other hand, may very well reach Vanek level this year if he gets his shot on net. For 7M a year... you could pretty much sign me up to play anywhere.
I'd take the 4 1st rounders for Carter. Even if he pops in 30+ this year, I can't justify giving him $5 million+ longterm just yet.

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07-07-2007, 10:35 AM
  #78
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I'd take the 4 1st rounders for Carter. Even if he pops in 30+ this year, I can't justify giving him $5 million+ longterm just yet.
Especially considering those four first rounders are likely to come from a team bad enough they need to overpay that much for Carter. The way that runs through my head is:

Hello John Tavares, welcome to Philadelphia. This is Broad Street. Remember it, because you'll be leading Stanley Cup parades down it in front of millions of screaming fans for years to come.

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07-07-2007, 11:46 AM
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here's my main problem with the slag on Pitkanen. the lack of empathy for a young kid, coming to a foreign country with poor language skills is amazing. you have kids... would you REALLY be shocked if they went to say... Germany for work without german language skills (not really a problem because everyone speaks english there, but for the sake of argument... lets just roll with it) and had some issues adjusting to the situation... then they have idiots in the media riling up the locals AGAINST them... would you be stoked about this place?

this is a job for these guys... this fact gets lost way too often. it's a job. sure, it's a great job and they're well compensated... but it's a job. my best friend from college is working in NYC... dream job... getting paid more than he could imagine 3 years ago... and he hates his life. life isn't quite as simple as the picture your painting there, and you've been around long enough to know that.

they may have tried with Joni... but they also bailed on Joni at the first sign of any problems. was anyone -- Joni, Flyers, etc. -- talking about making a move like this after last season? no. that's not really trying if you ask me.

as far as analyzing all of Holmgren's moves... they're all no-brainers. they're all simple... i was advocating trading Forsberg in November... and more than a few on here pegged his exact value to someone. if someone was stupid enough to give you Coburn for Zhitnik... again, no brainer. i'm not saying Holmgren hasn't done a good job up to this point (this summer has massive potential to backfire... which people should think about), but i'm saying nothing he's done smacks of genius. this isn't his first time as a GM, and it didn't work out so great the last time.

lets save the victory parade and laurels for him until he's actually created a winning team... and, btw, he had a lot to do with creating the team he inherited. Clarke wasn't the only one with bloody hands.
Ya know, I was really all for keeping Joni until our little discussion last night--I have started to believe me own made-up hype. No one twisted Joni's arm and made him come to America to play. I wouldn't go work in Germany because I don't know the language or the customs, so yes, I would take less money to stay where I am--which is exactly what Joni could have done. As for your friend who's making a ton of money that's exactly what I'm talking about. We live in a country founded on free will, if he's not happy in his job, he should leave. But you gotta take the good with the bad, leaving may mean less money but more happiness, which is how I see my job.

But back to the point at hand, Joni is obviously elated to be out of Philly. Good for him, but to say this organization didn't make the moves that would ultimately benefit Joni is just plain incorrect---Kukkonen and Timonen alone should've made Joni jump for joy, but clearly that still wasn't enough for him. He seems to have his mind made up long ago.

Someone posted about Fedoruk punching him in the face and no one doing anything about it. For all we know, he was a locker room cancer. He may go on to score tons of points in Edmonton or elsewhere, but that really has no baring on what he would have done here because he simply didn't want to be here.

Lastly, you will always view Holmgren's moves as "no brainers" and I'll always say that some of them, especially those with Nashville, can only be viewed as "fleecing." Let us not forget that arguabley the most sought after FA center wanted to play on the worst team in the NHL because of those moves--Homer must've been doing something right.

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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
I'd take the 4 1st rounders for Carter. Even if he pops in 30+ this year, I can't justify giving him $5 million+ longterm just yet.
As soon as I walked away from the computer last night, I thought of the same exact thing. Carter, in my opinion, has done nothing to warrant Gagne-like numbers. That being said, the last forward I gave up (obviously too early) on went on to win a Cup with Carolina.

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07-07-2007, 12:03 PM
  #80
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Ya know, I was really all for keeping Joni until our little discussion last night--I have started to believe me own made-up hype. No one twisted Joni's arm and made him come to America to play. I wouldn't go work in Germany because I don't know the language or the customs, so yes, I would take less money to stay where I am--which is exactly what Joni could have done. As for your friend who's making a ton of money that's exactly what I'm talking about. We live in a country founded on free will, if he's not happy in his job, he should leave. But you gotta take the good with the bad, leaving may mean less money but more happiness, which is how I see my job.
So, you're saying if you were in a position to make your entire family want for nothing... to make your children, grand children, etc. never want for anything... you'd say, "screw it... i'm happy here". That's the situation these guys are in, especially the top picks who get a million out of the gate... it's easy to say that when you're talking about minimal changes in life based on employment... but that's not what we're talking about with professional athletes in the US... that's not the choice that they'd be making.

The 'less money' that you're talking about when it comes to the European leagues to the NHL is vast in most cases... millions of dollars per year. Not quite so simple.

And I'm not saying he shouldn't make decisions based on those interests... what I am saying is that the lack of empathy towards athletes in this regard -- not just Pitkanen -- is simply absurd. It stems from contract negotiations, on down to a guy not being comfortable as a 20 y/o in a foreign environment... fan expectations turn into ridicule if everything doesn't go swimmingly.

to this situation, where Holmgren pretty much admitted on DNL that the media and fans ran Pitkanen out of town.

And, yes, my friend is planning on leaving NYC as soon as possible.

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07-07-2007, 12:06 PM
  #81
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carter is great but 4 first rounders can set u up for trades and prospects for 10 years. That would mean that for 4 years you have at least 8 first round picks to play with. You have to think the team getting him is pretty bad sop the first 1 or 2 could be top 10

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07-07-2007, 12:08 PM
  #82
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carter is great but 4 first rounders can set u up for trades and prospects for 10 years. That would mean that for 4 years you have at least 8 first round picks to play with. You have to think the team getting him is pretty bad sop the first 1 or 2 could be top 10
we're not necessarily talking a 4 1st round deal being a problem... it can be lower and cause some issues.

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07-07-2007, 12:19 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, you're saying if you were in a position to make your entire family want for nothing... to make your children, grand children, etc. never want for anything... you'd say, "screw it... i'm happy here". That's the situation these guys are in, especially the top picks who get a million out of the gate... it's easy to say that when you're talking about minimal changes in life based on employment... but that's not what we're talking about with professional athletes in the US... that's not the choice that they'd be making.

The 'less money' that you're talking about when it comes to the European leagues to the NHL is vast in most cases... millions of dollars per year. Not quite so simple.

And I'm not saying he shouldn't make decisions based on those interests... what I am saying is that the lack of empathy towards athletes in this regard -- not just Pitkanen -- is simply absurd. It stems from contract negotiations, on down to a guy not being comfortable as a 20 y/o in a foreign environment... fan expectations turn into ridicule if everything doesn't go swimmingly.

to this situation, where Holmgren pretty much admitted on DNL that the media and fans ran Pitkanen out of town.

And, yes, my friend is planning on leaving NYC as soon as possible.
Jester, I am a lowly public school teacher, so to talk to me about millions is like talking to me about marrying Eddie Van Halen--I can only dream of such things. But let me put it in perspective. I currently work for the lowest paying school district in Bergen Co. About 10 years ago, while working at a summer job in upper Bergen Co., my boss came to me to request that I apply for a job in one of her districts (she oversees special ed. in probably the 8 highest paying districts in the state). While I did mull over the idea and weighed the pros against the cons, I chose to take far less money (like 50 grand/year less) and stay where I am. I love my job, I love the people I work with and I love my students. I drive 3 blocks and drop my daughter off at school and then drive a mile to my school.

One of my friends since 7th grade will constantly bring up the house I was raised in and how "rich" I was (none of us, including my family were rich). I grew up in a 5 bedroom house while she grew up in a 2 bedroom apartment where she and her two sisters shared one room that couldn't even hold true beds-they just had three mattresses on the floor. Well my dad died when I was 15 and her father is currently spending his retirement bouncing his five grandsons on his knees---my point being what did the "big" house get me? Absolutely nothing. I would much rather my father have been alive to see his grandchildren than to even care about the size of the house. So to sum it all up, I could care less about money and being set for life. Money most certainly does not buy happiness, as Joni and your friend have certainly found out. Your friend is leaving his job because he is miserable, and Joni is leaving Philly because he was miserable. Sometimes, it really is that simple.

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07-07-2007, 12:37 PM
  #84
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Jester, I am a lowly public school teacher, so to talk to me about millions is like talking to me about marrying Eddie Van Halen--I can only dream of such things. But let me put it in perspective. I currently work for the lowest paying school district in Bergen Co. About 10 years ago, while working at a summer job in upper Bergen Co., my boss came to me to request that I apply for a job in one of her districts (she oversees special ed. in probably the 8 highest paying districts in the state). While I did mull over the idea and weighed the pros against the cons, I chose to take far less money (like 50 grand/year less) and stay where I am. I love my job, I love the people I work with and I love my students. I drive 3 blocks and drop my daughter off at school and then drive a mile to my school.

One of my friends since 7th grade will constantly bring up the house I was raised in and how "rich" I was (none of us, including my family were rich). I grew up in a 5 bedroom house while she grew up in a 2 bedroom apartment where she and her two sisters shared one room that couldn't even hold true beds-they just had three mattresses on the floor. Well my dad died when I was 15 and her father is currently spending his retirement bouncing his five grandsons on his knees---my point being what did the "big" house get me? Absolutely nothing. I would much rather my father have been alive to see his grandchildren than to even care about the size of the house. So to sum it all up, I could care less about money and being set for life. Money most certainly does not buy happiness, as Joni and your friend have certainly found out. Your friend is leaving his job because he is miserable, and Joni is leaving Philly because he was miserable. Sometimes, it really is that simple.
while i respect everything you just said... it has a very fragile relationship to the decision these players have to make in relationship between playing in North America and Europe... the difference in what they can provide for everyone in their family is light years apart from what you, me, and 95% of other people have placed in front of them.

and you don't need to lecture me about making choices for comfort/happiness... i firmly agree... i went to Penn because i wanted to be in Philly... i stayed in Philly because i wanted to be there... and i'm going back for Grad School because i want to be there.

then again, some school isn't offering me 1 million to go there for a few years... the issue isn't short-term happiness for me... the issues at stake in that decision are far reaching and have the ability to benefit the lives of everyone close to me, that's what these players are faced with.

so, Pitkanen comes to a foreign country... doesn't speak the language... and in one year where the entire team sucks, he gets singled out by the media, booed by the fans... and has a whiskey tango foxtrot response. this all happened/changed in one year... and the character assassination is simply remarkable.

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07-07-2007, 12:50 PM
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while i respect everything you just said... it has a very fragile relationship to the decision these players have to make in relationship between playing in North America and Europe... the difference in what they can provide for everyone in their family is light years apart from what you, me, and 95% of other people have placed in front of them.

and you don't need to lecture me about making choices for comfort/happiness... i firmly agree... i went to Penn because i wanted to be in Philly... i stayed in Philly because i wanted to be there... and i'm going back for Grad School because i want to be there.

then again, some school isn't offering me 1 million to go there for a few years... the issue isn't short-term happiness for me... the issues at stake in that decision are far reaching and have the ability to benefit the lives of everyone close to me, that's what these players are faced with.

so, Pitkanen comes to a foreign country... doesn't speak the language... and in one year where the entire team sucks, he gets singled out by the media, booed by the fans... and has a whiskey tango foxtrot response. this all happened/changed in one year... and the character assassination is simply remarkable.
I agree whole-heartidly with your last paragraph. But what the he11 was Homer/the organization supposed to do? Come out and tell the fans to stop booing the boy with the fragile ego? C'mon, ain't gonna happen. We live in a world where A-Rod, who many (including myself) consider the best baseball player in the last decade, gets booed by his hometown fans. Getting booed has got to be part of life for any professional athlete, even the elite. Again, I will go back to "suck it up." If Joni thinks he's never going to be booed in Edmonton than he's got another thing coming. All athletes, even the great and powerful Cal, have gotten booed at some point in their careers. C'mon, you're a Philly-boy, look what Schmidt had to endure. Joni is a great talent, no doubt, but he's gotta toughen up the mental part of his game if he wants to enjoy true success at the NHL level.

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07-07-2007, 12:56 PM
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I agree whole-heartidly with your last paragraph. But what the he11 was Homer/the organization supposed to do? Come out and tell the fans to stop booing the boy with the fragile ego? C'mon, ain't gonna happen. We live in a world where A-Rod, who many (including myself) consider the best baseball player in the last decade, gets booed by his hometown fans. Getting booed has got to be part of life for any professional athlete, even the elite. Again, I will go back to "suck it up." If Joni thinks he's never going to be booed in Edmonton than he's got another thing coming. All athletes, even the great and powerful Cal, have gotten booed at some point in their careers. C'mon, you're a Philly-boy, look what Schmidt had to endure. Joni is a great talent, no doubt, but he's gotta toughen up the mental part of his game if he wants to enjoy true success at the NHL level.
the Schmidt example is what should make the Philly crowd suck in their breath.

i'm not sure it necessarily has to do with toughing it up. what loyalty does Pitkanen have to the area, the fans, the everything... he's a kid from Finland getting paid to play hockey. the entire team is struggling, the media jumps on his back (specifically Timmeh P), and then the fans are laying into him whilst everyone around him is playing like crap.

i'd have a giant F you response also.

good example with A-Rod, who is going to be a Cub next year... and was a complete disaster at the end of last season.

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07-07-2007, 05:11 PM
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So we should expect to lose all our young guys if we boo them. Check.

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07-07-2007, 09:06 PM
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So we should expect to lose all our young guys if we boo them. Check.
no, you should understand the decisions you make have consequences.

as is true of all things in life.

here's the metaphor... you walk into a bar, you've been there a few times, but not enough to really care about the place. you have a horrible experience -- for whatever reason. you go to the manager and say that sucked... he tells you to screw off (the fans).

you going to the bar again?

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07-08-2007, 12:22 AM
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no, you should understand the decisions you make have consequences.

as is true of all things in life.

here's the metaphor... you walk into a bar, you've been there a few times, but not enough to really care about the place. you have a horrible experience -- for whatever reason. you go to the manager and say that sucked... he tells you to screw off (the fans).

you going to the bar again?
Doubtful, but if I'm the owner I'm telling "you" not to let the door hit him in his arse as he walks out.

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07-08-2007, 01:50 AM
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That metaphor is missing another part because the fans aren't the manager. The fans would be the people who hold the bar in high regards and booed the person who had the ****** attitude. Now the person with the ****** attitude can do two things. 1) Be a ***** and never come back or 2) Prove that he isn't a ***** and come back and try to have a better time.

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07-08-2007, 02:31 AM
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Im very srubk right now so I cant respomd/.//...but screw the opwner if he doesnt treat me likle gold cause i epdnt a lot of money...

on the othert hand...if someone else comes in with more money he's sure to lkike him more...i dont know...

on my wat to the strip cl8ub, bye.

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07-08-2007, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by markzab View Post
Im very srubk right now so I cant respomd/.//...but screw the opwner if he doesnt treat me likle gold cause i epdnt a lot of money...

on the othert hand...if someone else comes in with more money he's sure to lkike him more...i dont know...

on my wat to the strip cl8ub, bye.
lawl.

carter and richards are fitting in much easier than pits, and it appears that richards is the heart and soul of the team. though if someone offered a decent offer sheet for carter, i'd let him go. still needs to prove that he can be that #1 guy we hoped he'd be.

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07-08-2007, 09:42 AM
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Im very srubk right now so I cant respomd/.//...but screw the opwner if he doesnt treat me likle gold cause i epdnt a lot of money...

on the othert hand...if someone else comes in with more money he's sure to lkike him more...i dont know...

on my wat to the strip cl8ub, bye.
How you feeling this morning bud?

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07-08-2007, 09:49 AM
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prostate before the porcelain goddess.

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07-08-2007, 11:00 AM
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lawl.

carter and richards are fitting in much easier than pits, and it appears that richards is the heart and soul of the team. though if someone offered a decent offer sheet for carter, i'd let him go. still needs to prove that he can be that #1 guy we hoped he'd be.
No. We have Briere for 8 years, well, probably more like 6 but you get the idea. Carter only needs to be a good 2nd line center which is probably more what he will become anyway.

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07-08-2007, 12:02 PM
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How you feeling this morning bud?
What the hell did I write last night?

Patron with Champagne? What was I thinking?!


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