I don't doubt what the rangers needs are but the difference to me between hossa and prucha is hossa can be a successful hockey player on lines 1 through 4....prucha can't...
No, I think Prucha would have done better with more minutes, not which line he was on. Wasn't it said he had the most goals within the ice time he was given in the league? He averaged 13min a game.
Hossa on the other hand, has only showed flashes of his potential, and it wasn't til the end of last season that he actually started to be more consistent. Do we have to wait until he gets into his groove to expect him to produce for us?
I don't remember how many minutes Hossa got, but even if he did get the same minutes, he wasn't near the same points production that Prucha offers. Prucha has played his heart out everytime he's on the ice, he doesn't even have body size and yet he tries to use the body more then Hossa!
Hossa will be a question mark for me until I see consistency on his part.
No, I think Prucha would have done better with more minutes, not which line he was on. Wasn't it said he had the most goals within the ice time he was given in the league? He averaged 13min a game.
Hossa on the other hand, has only showed flashes of his potential, and it wasn't til the end of last season that he actually started to be more consistent. Do we have to wait until he gets into his groove to expect him to produce for us?
I don't remember how many minutes Hossa got, but even if he did get the same minutes, he wasn't near the same points production that Prucha offers. Prucha has played his heart out everytime he's on the ice, he doesn't even have body size and yet he tries to use the body more then Hossa!
Hossa will be a question mark for me until I see consistency on his part.
See... and this points to the thing that bothers me most about Hossa criticisms. It's not that he can't do this or can't do that... it's that he's too low-key, too non-expressive.
Prucha "tries to use his body more than Hossa"? Are you freaking kidding me?!?!?!?!? Yes, Petr has bounced off of other players more than Hossa, no doubt, but that's precisely because he's so small! What made Marcel so successful with Jagr and Nylander was his ability to fend off defenders in the offensive zone and then pass to the open man. He scored most of his goals by getting in front and fighting off checks to score on passes from Jags and Nyls. He plays on the PK because of both his speed and his ability to use his body to his advantage. And, lastly, my enduring memory from last year is Hossa going into the boards and colliding with two opposing players (can't remember the team) in the corner and walking away with the puck while both of the other guys were picking themselves up off the ice. Prucha has NEVER done that.
If he did the same things he did last year but did it with a huge, toothy smile and celebrated like Tiger Williams, he'd be a fan favorite. But, because he's obviously a quiet, understated (most likely lacking in confidence given who his brother is and what he's achieved), it's all discounted. Grrrr.
"The performance and salary of any player alleged to be "comparable" to the player in the dispute."
They will probably compare him to Darcy Tucker.. very similar stats during the past 3 seasons, and obviously same contributions. Tucker makes 3.0m, so if they even make it to the hearing, the result shouldn't be anymore than 3.
If he did the same things he did last year but did it with a huge, toothy smile and celebrated like Tiger Williams, he'd be a fan favorite. But, because he's obviously a quiet, understated (most likely lacking in confidence given who his brother is and what he's achieved), it's all discounted. Grrrr.
No, it's because he still only scored 18 points, and like Edge and I pointed out, doesn't excel in any one area.
It's fine to have him back on the team. Maybe he shows some more scoring consistancy and really does break out as a player. But the point here is that he should get his payday when that happens, not before.
Do you realize that we're talking about a guy who's offensive output last year can be approximated to Jed Ortmeyer?
I'm really surprised that Hossa has fooled so many posters here.
Take a good look at the body of work from last year and the only time he's shown any ability to do anything offensively was when he was paired with Nylander and Jagr. And even then after his initial spurt he tailed off a great deal.
If he get's awarded a million, the Rangers would be better served walking from the award.
He's not a bad player, but not worth the cap space for the role that he plays and the skill set he brings to the table.
No, it's because he still only scored 18 points, and like Edge and I pointed out, doesn't excel in any one area.
It's fine to have him back on the team. Maybe he shows some more scoring consistancy and really does break out as a player. But the point here is that he should get his payday when that happens, not before.
Do you realize that we're talking about a guy who's offensive output last year can be approximated to Jed Ortmeyer?
Wait, wait, wait. I'm not suggesting that he deserves $2.5MM or anything like that. But how did he perform the 10 games before his injury? And how did he play when he rushed back from the injury in time for the playoffs?
And c'mon, Levitate, are you really comparing his production to that of Jed's...? Really...?
No, it's because he still only scored 18 points, and like Edge and I pointed out, doesn't excel in any one area.
It's fine to have him back on the team. Maybe he shows some more scoring consistancy and really does break out as a player. But the point here is that he should get his payday when that happens, not before.
Do you realize that we're talking about a guy who's offensive output last year can be approximated to Jed Ortmeyer?
It's not fair to look at his point totals considering his role last year (not by his choice) was that of a 3rd or 4th line player for most of the year; once he was put on a line where he was expected to produce he did a good job. I'm not saying that Hossa should get top line money - he should get 3rd line money. To me the thing that makes this a win - win for the Rangers is that he can play both roles and he has good upside as a top 6 forward thus making him more valuable than others. Letting him go would be a mistake.
See... and this points to the thing that bothers me most about Hossa criticisms. It's not that he can't do this or can't do that... it's that he's too low-key, too non-expressive.
Doesn't matter whether he's expressive or not, he's not expressive, nor is he consistent. And consistency is definitly something you look for a player. You need him to be able to show up all the time, not when he feels like it, or he's feeling alittle braver that day.
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Prucha "tries to use his body more than Hossa"? Are you freaking kidding me?!?!?!?!? Yes, Petr has bounced off of other players more than Hossa, no doubt, but that's precisely because he's so small! What made Marcel so successful with Jagr and Nylander was his ability to fend off defenders in the offensive zone and then pass to the open man.
And yet we saw most of his ability towards the end. I wouldn't mind it if he actually was this way ALL THE TIME.
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He scored most of his goals by getting in front and fighting off checks to score on passes from Jags and Nyls.
So did Prucha, who was not only smaller, but also had MORE then ten goals on top of Hossa's both seasons! Prucha doesn't even have his size and he did it!
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And, lastly, my enduring memory from last year is Hossa going into the boards and colliding with two opposing players (can't remember the team) in the corner and walking away with the puck while both of the other guys were picking themselves up off the ice. Prucha has NEVER done that.
And even without Hossa's size, he's still been more successful. Those points you gave only make it more sad when comparing with Prucha. Hossa has the tools, he just doesn't use them!
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If he did the same things he did last year but did it with a huge, toothy smile and celebrated like Tiger Williams, he'd be a fan favorite. But, because he's obviously a quiet, understated (most likely lacking in confidence given who his brother is and what he's achieved), it's all discounted. Grrrr.
The only time his brother concerns me is when he's playing the Rangers. I'm not looking to compare Marcel to anyone, only comparing him to what he can be, which is good, and what he does consistently the past two seasons, and thats inconsistency as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, I did just compare his production to Jed's, because if you check out their PPG average from last year, you'll find that they were the same.
Remember when Ortmeyer teamed up with Prucha and Cullen and suddenly scored some points?
Remember when Hossa teamed up with Jagr and Nylander and suddenly scored some points?
Obviously I am exaggerating things a bit to prove a point. I do think Hossa has more offensive talent than Ortmeyer. But I'm just saying that if Hossa somehow wins his arbitration case and gets much more than his original QO, there's enough reason for the Rangers to let him walk.
Well, as has been mentioned before, Moore was dealt after filing last season and perhaps Hossa will be too. This also may open the door for Korpikoski. He is my favorite prospect outside of Staal and as a more respected and qualified opinion in Edge has suggested, Korpedo has a real shot. I think if given the opportunity, although he doesn't have quite the size, he has some versatility and that defensive responsibility/PK prowess you look for.
The problem you run into is that there are guys who outscore him on the top lines and guys who bring other attributes to the lower lines.
That is one of my main issues with him. There are just people who can do the job better than he can on any one line. Or at least that applies to the top-3 lines. An on the 4th, there are those who bring more to the table in such a role.
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For starters you're going to have a hard time playing him over Straka, Shanahan, Prucha, Callahan, Cullen, Jagr, Drury or Gomez.
Secondly if you put him on the fourth line you now have a team that seriously lacks any kind of physical play.
And this is the same point. Except I still can't help but get the feeling that Renney prefers him to Prucha.
However, a million dollar fill-in player is far to expensive in this day and age.
Well, as has been mentioned before, Moore was dealt after filing last season and perhaps Hossa will be too. This also may open the door for Korpikoski. He is my favorite prospect outside of Staal and as a more respected and qualified opinion in Edge has suggested, Korpedo has a real shot. I think if given the opportunity, although he doesn't have quite the size, he has some versatility and that defensive responsibility/PK prowess you look for.
I love Korpi as well but he's at least a year away.
I love Korpi as well but he's at least a year away.
I agree to some extent. Is he one year away from his full potential? Maybe. But in this upcoming season, if need be, can he provide what Hossa has? Korpikoski has been defensively ready for a year, and according to many, his puck poise in Hartford was great. I am sorry, but if Hossa does not remain with the club, I don't think 10 goals and 8 assists is outside the realm of Lauri's capabilities next year.
Edge you have to weigh the risk/reward here - Hossa may turn out to be a better player than Prucha and Cally. That fact alone should be reason enough to spend the extra 500K...that's not going to break the bank considering how much dough management has already flung around.
And thus we go back to where two teams and lots of fans always have with Hossa: that he MAY be more than he is.
That's always the catch-22 with Hossa. The skills and the talent are undeniably there and in spurts he makes you start to believe. But at some point, especially in a salary capped world, you have to weigh the odds of him achieving that and how long you wait.
There are lots of guys who put things together later in their career, but there is also a reason they aren't with their first or second NHL team either.
Hossa's salary won't necessarily break the bank, but it also depends on how much money is in the bank to begin with and which players you have coming up through the system.
The reality is that Hossa, when paired with world class talent, has enough natural talent to not really look out of place. The question is what is the big return we could realistically expect out of him? Maybe a 25 goal scorer for a few seasons, and what are the odds of him reaching that as a fourth liner or a bench guy? Essentially that's what he'd be here because I don't know if he can knock anyone out of the top 9 right now. So in order for him to maybe become the superior player to Prucha or Callahan he'd actually have to get the playing time in the first place, in order to get the playing time he'd have to show more than them. Thus we find ourselves right back in the typical catch-22 that seems to have followed Hossa since he was drafted.
You see the skills, you imagine what could possibly someday be, but how much of an investment does it take to get there and what do you give up in the meantime?
The problem with Hossa has never been potential, it's turning that potential into more than 10 game stretches and growing out of that utility player classification. The problem is, who do you take out of the top 9 to get him there because it's not happening on the 4th line which is probably where he plays on this team.
He doesn't score enough to displace the scorers, he doesn't bring a unique dynamic to displace the role players so Hossa ends up right back in the same situation: utility man.
So it's not really that he's useless, just more of what's been said about him not really excelling in any one area enough to displace the guys ahead of him on the depth chart. In many ways that's no different than the story has always been.
That is one of my main issues with him. There are just people who can do the job better than he can on any one line. Or at least that applies to the top-3 lines. An on the 4th, there are those who bring more to the table in such a role.
And this is the same point. Except I still can't help but get the feeling that Renney prefers him to Prucha.
However, a million dollar fill-in player is far to expensive in this day and age.
Can Prucha play a 3rd or 4th line role - no way. If Prucha does not score his value is low...BTW he has done zero in the playoffs.
I guess that this goes to my personel preference of style, but if we could get Hossa to be a bit more physical and instill the confidence in him that he'd be a huge asset if he imposed his frame not so much in the corners, but all over the place I see no reason to part with him, but if it's not his style (and that's ok too) then we need to find someone else that can do what we are asking from him at a lower paycheck.
That's always the catch-22 with Hossa. The skills and the talent are undeniably there and in spurts he makes you start to believe. But at some point, especially in a salary capped world, you have to weigh the odds of him achieving that and how long you wait.
You said it best here. And even without the cap, you still have a limited number of players on the bench everynight, you need them to be showing up consistently. Hossa has shown otherwise from what I've seen.
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Can Prucha play a 3rd or 4th line role - no way. If Prucha does not score his value is low...BTW he has done zero in the playoffs.
They have the same amount of points in the last two playoffs, 2. Hossa had two goals in the last playoff, zero in the first, and Prucha a goal in the 06 playoffs and a assist in the last one.
Can Prucha play a 3rd or 4th line role - no way. If Prucha does not score his value is low...BTW he has done zero in the playoffs.
But the problem we once again run into is that even with that argument you can say Prucha SHOULD be on a scoring line. He scores enough to justify that.
Hossa really doesn't.
Do I like Prucha on the third line? Not really, but I don't know if I necessarily like Hossa more in that role at a cost of a million dollars.
Avery should get whatever he deserves as long as it's somewhat reasonable (hence - in the area of 2-3 mill). I can't stress enough how the collective culture of this team changed once he was traded here. There's a reason that, despite losing the game, one of the most memorable moments of the season was when Avery got up in Brodeur's face and pushed him as Brodeur dove back 10 feet into the net.
Hossa on the other hand..look, I thought he made HUGE strides this season. He never showed me as much as he did at the end of the season..but can he keep it up? And what is his role on this team? The way I see it, he may get alot of 4th line time..I'm not sure if that suits him well.
I say a mill or less for Hossa would be fine.
However I see it as a good sign that Lundqvist didn't go to arbitration..I never saw that happening and I have a gut feeling he is re-signing within days (I hope).
You said it best here. And even without the cap, you still have a limited number of players on the bench everynight, you need them to be showing up consistently. Hossa has shown otherwise from what I've seen.
They have the same amount of points in the last two playoffs, 2. Hossa had two goals in the last playoff, zero in the first, and Prucha a goal in the 06 playoffs and a assist in the last one.
Hossa's career to me will look like Pock's.
He has enough talent to bounce around to several team's but really nothing be more than a placeholder over the long haul. He's talented enough that he'll almost always have a job, but inevitably there will be cheaper talent with higher upsides.
He'll net his 20 goals playing with more talented linemates but eventually be displaced and go to another team where he gets his 20 goals and the cycle will repeat itself.
He'll do a little bit of everything but not enough of any one thing to ever really find a permanent home but he'll be good enough as a short-term alternative for a team. In that regard he's like a lot of other guys in the NHL.
Some journeyman have careers because they work hard enough and they make teams employ them. Other guys are talented enough that they can get-by and be productive for teams but never really become core guys to build around.
Hossa will likely be the latter. I think the promise of how much potential he has tends to sugarcoat that the end result isn't really THAT unique.
Of course someone will complain when he goes to a team like Columbus and has a 20 goal season and we let him go for nothing and it'll be forgotten that he does that for 3 or 4 NHL teams. People will forget that the guys we have playing the same role scored more and that scoring 20 goals on another team's second line doesn't mean he was going to produce like that on our third line.
Hossa in a lot of ways is a pain for a GM because you know he'll produce for a lesser team and you're probably not going to trade him to that team for much. But on the flip side, if you have a good team, you know he's not likely going to beat out the players you have.
Avery should get whatever he deserves as long as it's somewhat reasonable (hence - in the area of 2-3 mill). I can't stress enough how the collective culture of this team changed once he was traded here. There's a reason that, despite losing the game, one of the most memorable moments of the season was when Avery got up in Brodeur's face and pushed him as Brodeur dove back 10 feet into the net.
Hossa on the other hand..look, I thought he made HUGE strides this season. He never showed me as much as he did at the end of the season..but can he keep it up? And what is his role on this team? The way I see it, he may get alot of 4th line time..I'm not sure if that suits him well.
I say a mill or less for Hossa would be fine.
However I see it as a good sign that Lundqvist didn't go to arbitration..I never saw that happening and I have a gut feeling he is re-signing within days (I hope).
Don't get us Hossa supporters (or at least this one) wrong! If he filed for $1.05MM, I have no problems with it and support the decision. If, on the other hand, he filed for something ridiculous like $2MM, then it's a no-brainer to let him walk.
Don't get us Hossa supporters (or at least this one) wrong! If he filed for $1.05MM, I have no problems with it and support the decision. If, on the other hand, he filed for something ridiculous like $2MM, then it's a no-brainer to let him walk.
Oh I definitely agree with what you are saying. Even a bit above $1 M would be fine. I honestly don't even think it's going to get into the 2 mill range. But the arbitrators can be unpredictable sometimes, so you always have to prepare.
I am a Hossa fan myself and I hope if he comes back that playing time can be made for him - perhaps on the Power Play units.
He has enough talent to bounce around to several team's but really nothing be more than a placeholder over the long haul. He's talented enough that he'll almost always have a job, but inevitably there will be cheaper talent with higher upsides.
He'll net his 20 goals playing with more talented linemates but eventually be displaced and go to another team where he gets his 20 goals and the cycle will repeat itself.
He'll do a little bit of everything but not enough of any one thing to ever really find a permanent home but he'll be good enough as a short-term alternative for a team. In that regard he's like a lot of other guys in the NHL.
Some journeyman have careers because they work hard enough and they make teams employ them. Other guys are talented enough that they can get-by and be productive for teams but never really become core guys to build around.
Hossa will likely be the latter. I think the promise of how much potential he has tends to sugarcoat that the end result isn't really THAT unique.
Of course someone will complain when he goes to a team like Columbus and has a 20 goal season and we let him go for nothing and it'll be forgotten that he does that for 3 or 4 NHL teams. People will forget that the guys we have playing the same role scored more and that scoring 20 goals on another team's second line doesn't mean he was going to produce like that on our third line.
Hossa in a lot of ways is a pain for a GM because you know he'll produce for a lesser team and you're probably not going to trade him to that team for much. But on the flip side, if you have a good team, you know he's not likely going to beat out the players you have.
Hmmm... Well, Edge, if that's true, then I say adios. But, based on his performance when he got shifted to the top line before the injury, I think it's worth finding out whether he could actually meet the performance that those numbers extrapolated out would seem to indicate (something on the order of 35-40 goals). Granted, I've always been a fan.
If he can't keep it up, well, then you dump him at the trade deadline or next offseason. But first let's see if his last run prior to injury was a fluke or not. (Assuming we're talking about the difference between $800K and $1MM or something like that and he hasn't asked for something stupid like $2MM.)
Hmmm... Well, Edge, if that's true, then I say adios. But, based on his performance when he got shifted to the top line before the injury, I think it's worth finding out whether he could actually meet the performance that those numbers extrapolated out would seem to indicate (something on the order of 35-40 goals). Granted, I've always been a fan.
If he can't keep it up, well, then you dump him at the trade deadline or next offseason. But first let's see if his last run prior to injury was a fluke or not. (Assuming we're talking about the difference between $800K and $1MM or something like that and he hasn't asked for something stupid like $2MM.)
But again who do you bump out of the the top 6 in order to do that? For that matter how do you bump off the first line?
That's the problem, it's hard to justify knocking guys who are already doing their jobs down in order to get production out of Hossa. If this team had a hole than sure why not, but (and this is pretty nice to say) I don't think this team has a hole in the top anymore. For that matter, with the emergence of Callahan and the re-signing of Prucha, I don't know if the third line does either.
So he'll once again find himself on the fourth (third line in a best case scenario) and he's not going to produce in that role. That's the catch-22 he's in at the moment. I have to admit that there isn't one guy in the top 9 that I'd bump down to the fourth line in order to let Hossa play. Now amongst those 9 guys I think you can make different arguments for who should play where and with who, but those 9 players seem pretty locked to me. So I don't know how he'd get the look in the first place.
Even the players he's closest to on the depth chart (Avery, Cullen and Prucha) deserve a better fate than the 4th line. If Prucha isn't an ideal third liner, he's even less ideal on the 4th line. Now you'd essentially have a $1.6-million 4th liner who's not even that good for the role.
To me Hossa's greatest hope and really only chance is if Prucha is traded for a defenseman. Even then I just don't see 35-40 goals. That's pretty rare company in the NHL these days. I thought he looked good with Jagr, but he didn't look like a world-beater either. To me he simply looked like a guy who was talented enough to not look out of place, but he didn't really look like a guy who brought something more than a lot of guys would in that role.
I see a very similar situation (and potential outcome) to what Pitts. went through with Michel Ouellet.
Hossa has the skill set to become a dominant player. He is as strong on the puck as anyone onthe team outside of Jagr and draws penalties through hard work and his balance. He has shown that he can be a force in keeping the puck and working in the corners. Last year, although he was with Jagr, he showed that he has what it takes to be a top line player. He was also veryefficient at opening space for Jagr with his size. He has a nasty, quick shot and when he uses it he can often find the net. Outside of all of this, Hossa has yet to tun 26. The Rangers would be crazy to let him walk.
