HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

Where would we be without the Lowe trades?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-31-2003, 08:24 AM
  #26
Mr Sakich
Registered User
 
Mr Sakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Motel 35
Posts: 8,038
vCash: 500
Bad moves-- Weight for Hecht/Reasoner (but given the limited market for big $ players, understandable.) 3rd round pick for Dopita (gak). Letting Todd Marchant walk (obviously he isn't worth a $19m/6 year deal, but we could have had him as an RFA for a couple hundred thousand more.) Handling of the Mike Comrie situation.

my views on the weight deal are well documented. Ask the Blue's owners if they would like a do-over and they would in a St Louis second. (on a related note, read a funny quote from Brendan Morrison this morning on how the NHLPA will never accept a cap. Brendan Morrison who plays for a team which lost 12-20 mill per season for 3 of the last 4 years. Brendan Morrison who shoould be thankfull that his paycheque doesn't bounce.)

As for Todd Marchant, 20/20 is nice but would anyone here have offered him a raise from 1.2 mill to 1.9 mill when he was coming off a 12 goal year? There was a 95% chance that Todd would have stayed true to his career form and scored 12 goals, 23 assists and you would be citing that contract as one of lowe's biggest blunders.

Mr Sakich is offline  
Old
12-31-2003, 08:25 AM
  #27
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyF
To answer the question posed in the title of this thread: " Where would the Oilers be without the Lowe trades?"

How about Houston Texas or Portland Oregon?

Not making those trades would have the Oilers with about a $45M payroll, if not higher. Actually that wouldn't be a problem because the new owners in those two cities would be able to afford it.

I would rather have the crappiest, dead last, no recognizeable names on the team, play the trap cause we have to inorder to compete, team in the frickin' NHL than no team at all.

I say I'd rather live in that city than in Winnipeg, or Quebec City.

How about you?

The Ottawa Senators won the Presidents Trophy last year with a $32 million dollar payroll.

The Vancouver Canucks had a 104 point season with a $34 million dollar payroll.

The Minnesota Wild ended up in 6th place in the West with a $17 million dollar payroll.

More excuses, GuyF. Lowe isn't the only guy who could tear up a team & get rid of it's best players. Trust me, any GM can do that. The question is - can he win while keeping the franchise at the bargain basement price? It doesn't look like it, when many of his contemporaries can.

Mizral is offline  
Old
12-31-2003, 08:35 AM
  #28
Mr Sakich
Registered User
 
Mr Sakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Motel 35
Posts: 8,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
The Ottawa Senators won the Presidents Trophy last year with a $32 million dollar payroll.

The Vancouver Canucks had a 104 point season with a $34 million dollar payroll.

The Minnesota Wild ended up in 6th place in the West with a $17 million dollar payroll.

More excuses, GuyF. Lowe isn't the only guy who could tear up a team & get rid of it's best players. Trust me, any GM can do that. The question is - can he win while keeping the franchise at the bargain basement price? It doesn't look like it, when many of his contemporaries can.
the canucks got a point for every 3.05 Million dollars, the oilers got a point for every 3.06 million dollars. Considering the huge disparity in injuries last year, the oilers got a lot more bang for their buck. A very week comaparison, Mizral.

Ott went bankrupt and renegged on a lot of money owed to regular people. They are the classic example of a franchise who should never have existed. They won the presidents cup as a result of some incredibly high draft picks, something oiler fans wouldn't tolerate. A very poor example, Mizral.

Minnie got on a roll playing suffocating defense taught to them by the master. We won't tolerate that style and neither would canuck fans. Another very poor example, Mizral.

Mr Sakich is offline  
Old
12-31-2003, 08:38 AM
  #29
Lowetide
Registered User
 
Lowetide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
The Ottawa Senators won the Presidents Trophy last year with a $32 million dollar payroll.

The Vancouver Canucks had a 104 point season with a $34 million dollar payroll.

The Minnesota Wild ended up in 6th place in the West with a $17 million dollar payroll.

More excuses, GuyF. Lowe isn't the only guy who could tear up a team & get rid of it's best players. Trust me, any GM can do that. The question is - can he win while keeping the franchise at the bargain basement price? It doesn't look like it, when many of his contemporaries can.

I certainly think it's fair to put Lowe behind those three team's in terms of procurement. The trades that netted Jovanoski, Naslund and Bertuzzi are really top drawer, far more impressive than Lowe's best deal (I would suggest it was Poti for York, others may feel differently).

The Sens had a distinct draft advantage, but also drafted brilliantly in later rounds and full value for their superiority. Lowe's not in the class.

Risebrough has also shown a deft touch in his time in Minnesota.

The question becomes whether or not Lowe has done a good job, and the answer imo is "yes". In your opinion, the answer is "no".

I guarantee we won't agree no matter how many words we type so I'll wish you a Happy New Year and wish your team the best of luck in the new year.

Lowetide is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 08:31 AM
  #30
Oilers1*
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally posted by Mizral:Funny, weren't those the teams loaded with stuff from Sather's crew? If Lowe is still 'digging up' the relics of the Sather days (which would be exceedingly slow - consider that Brian Burke (and Mike Keenan I guess), for example, was able to turn the Canucks franchise around after only 2 years. Kevin Lowe is coming into his 4th season as GM is he not? How long does it take?
Now, here is a REAL example of an over-rated GM; Mr. Brian Burke. Not since Pierre Lacroix jumped onto the scene has one man been better positioned to take credit (or, to be fair, to be GIVEN credit) for other people's work.

As mentioned somewhere else is this thread, who's winning for Vancouver? Naslund, Bertuzzi, Jovanovski. Who acquired Naslund? Quinn. Who acquired Bertuzzi? Keenen. Yes, Burke did acquire Jovanovski (when he was a extremely green defenseman with little going for him but 'potential') by trading a disgruntled, one-dimenisonal holdout.

Strangely enough, Lowe just recently traded a disgrunlted, one-dimenisonal holdout for an extremely green defenseman with that notorious 'potential' tag hanging over him. Of course, Mizral labelled that a bad trade by Lowe. No sign of bias here.

What has Burke done, then? Well, trade an all-star defenseman AND a second-round draft pick for a questionable starting goalie, for one. This was after wasting significant resources on the Felix Potvin experiment which was, I would guess, at least as costly as the Jiri Dopita experiment (being very generous here, since Dopita didn't cost Edmonton anything in terms of players while Scatchard would have a place on ANY team in the NHL).

To be fair, of course, he's made good moves like dealing Mogilny for Morrison and signing Cassels (kind of like how Lowe snagged Brewer and York and signed Staios and Cross).

I also find it funny to critize Lowe, on one hand, for not acquiring premier Gaborik types in the draft while, simutaneously, praising Burke for rebuilding the Canucks. Burke has presided over the drafting of such luminaries as the Sedins (brutal, considering these were TWO top three picks), Nathan Smith, Brad Ference (top ten pick), Bryan Allen (top five pick). . .and RJ Umberger who may or may not be a player who Burke may or may not lose as an unrestricted free agent anyways.

So I'd like someone to tell me the difference between these two GMS OUTSIDE of Burke falling ass-backwards into Naslund and Bertuzzi. I mean, if Selivanov had broken out into a 50 goal-scorer (at one time, it was as likely as Naslund doing it) and Michael Henrich became a top three power-forward, Lowe would be the best GM in the league? Based on players he inherited from Sather?

Oilers1* is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 09:12 AM
  #31
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laraque27
Now, here is a REAL example of an over-rated GM; Mr. Brian Burke. Not since Pierre Lacroix jumped onto the scene has one man been better positioned to take credit (or, to be fair, to be GIVEN credit) for other people's work.

As mentioned somewhere else is this thread, who's winning for Vancouver? Naslund, Bertuzzi, Jovanovski. Who acquired Naslund? Quinn. Who acquired Bertuzzi? Keenen. Yes, Burke did acquire Jovanovski (when he was a extremely green defenseman with little going for him but 'potential') by trading a disgruntled, one-dimenisonal holdout.
When Burke got here as GM, Naslund was a 'pseudo-star' in this league, and Bertuzzi was where Isbister was 2 or 3 years ago. In other words, both were considered 'marginal' players. Second liners.

Burke then hired Marc Crawford, who, since his arrival, has helped turn Naslund into perhaps the biggest offensive threat in the NHL, and Bertuzzi into the best (arguably) power forward in the league.

Hiring a coach is a huge job. Burke went out and got a guy with cup experience and a guy who would bring in a strong system and a winning atmosphere.

Lowe brought in Craig MacTavish, who's biggest claim to fame right now is the league's worst penalty kill, and a power play that isn't much better.

Quote:
Strangely enough, Lowe just recently traded a disgrunlted, one-dimenisonal holdout for an extremely green defenseman with that notorious 'potential' tag hanging over him. Of course, Mizral labelled that a bad trade by Lowe. No sign of bias here.
That's right. Anyone who questions Lowe's actions must clearly be a 'Oilers hater'. Where's the rollseyes thingy when you need it?

Quote:
What has Burke done, then? Well, trade an all-star defenseman AND a second-round draft pick for a questionable starting goalie, for one. This was after wasting significant resources on the Felix Potvin experiment which was, I would guess, at least as costly as the Jiri Dopita experiment (being very generous here, since Dopita didn't cost Edmonton anything in terms of players while Scatchard would have a place on ANY team in the NHL).
Can't defend the Potvin experiment. It was a bad one. However, Cloutier has hardly turned out bad. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but outside of the post-season, Cloutier has been a fantastic keeper for us. Which is more than I can say for Tommy Salo, whom Kevin Lowe gave $4 million dollars to over a few years. At least with Cloutier, were were paying him in the vicinity of $1 million most of those years.

Quote:
To be fair, of course, he's made good moves like dealing Mogilny for Morrison and signing Cassels (kind of like how Lowe snagged Brewer and York and signed Staios and Cross).
You forgot a few.

Sami Salo for Peter Schaefer

Trevor Linden for a 1st round pick (Boyd Gordon)

Trevor Letowski, Tyler Bouck, 3rd round pick (Brett Skinner) for Drake Berehowsky and Denis Pederson [pure addition by subtraction, but Bouck is still doing good in the pipeline and Letowski we got another pick from, from the Yotes for selecting him as a UFA. This trade, along with the Linden trade, turned around the 2001/2002 season for the Canucks, too]

Marek Malik and Darren Langdon for Jan Hlavac and Harold Druken

(There's more, just can't think of 'em right now)

Quote:
I also find it funny to critize Lowe, on one hand, for not acquiring premier Gaborik types in the draft while, simutaneously, praising Burke for rebuilding the Canucks. Burke has presided over the drafting of such luminaries as the Sedins (brutal, considering these were TWO top three picks), Nathan Smith, Brad Ference (top ten pick), Bryan Allen (top five pick). . .and RJ Umberger who may or may not be a player who Burke may or may not lose as an unrestricted free agent anyways.
The Sedin's have both been more successful than just about everyone in that draft (outside of Havlat and Jackman, I can't think of anybody better there). Nathan Smith was a mistake. Ference was not a Burke pick. Allen is playing very, very good right now, I don't see any basis for slagging him at all. RJ Umberger was a runner up for the Hobey Baker award last season, and will be an NHL player, regardless of what team he is on.

You forgot Kirril Koltsov, Jason King, Brandon Reid, and Ryan Kesler, by the way.

Oh, and the Canucks have 4 players currently at this years World Juniors tournament. Most notably, Ryan Kesler for the USA squad and the surprising Ilya Krikunov of the Russian League.


Quote:
So I'd like someone to tell me the difference between these two GMS OUTSIDE of Burke falling ass-backwards into Naslund and Bertuzzi. I mean, if Selivanov had broken out into a 50 goal-scorer (at one time, it was as likely as Naslund doing it) and Michael Henrich became a top three power-forward, Lowe would be the best GM in the league? Based on players he inherited from Sather?
Perhaps the biggest difference is coaching. Burke hired Crawford. Lowe hired Craig MacTavish. The fortunes of a team rely so heavily on a coach these days, that the signing of a coach is perhaps the most underrated move a team can make. It's as important, or perhaps more in some cases, as signing/trading for a superstar forward or defenseman.

Furthermore, it's not always about the moves you make. It's the moves you don't make and when you make them. Burke is very adept at making moves at the right time more than anything else. Three times now (by my count), he has picked the Canucks up from a slump with a trade (Letowski/Linden in 2001/2002, Salo in 2002/2003, and Cloutier a while ago, forget exactly the time of the year and what year to be honest!). Lowe has not really done this at all.

This is not a 'Vancouver is better than Edmonton' post. I am very critical of Lowe for a reason. I like the Oilers, and think they could do a lot better in the management and coaching positions, and it pisses me off to see Lowe make moves like the Comrie one, get nothing back, and then have the fans eat it up and beg for more. How much poop are Edmonton fans going to take from these guys before they finally realize they are jerking them around?

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 09:26 AM
  #32
Oilers Hockey
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Heartland of Hockey
Posts: 1,531
vCash: 500
Quote:
Lowe brought in Craig MacTavish, who's biggest claim to fame right now is the league's worst penalty kill, and a power play that isn't much better.
I'm no huge fan of Mact but his biggest claim to fame is getting the Oilers to 100 wins faster than any other coach.

Quote:
I like the Oilers, and think they could do a lot better in the management and coaching positions, and it pisses me off to see Lowe make moves like the Comrie one, get nothing back
We know, you never fail to remind us that you "like" the Oilers. Kind of like how you "like" the Blues, or "like" the Av's, eh?'

And how can you say we got NOTHING for Comrie? I just shook my head when I read that.

Oilers Hockey is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 09:45 AM
  #33
Bohologo
Registered User
 
Bohologo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Tokyo
Country: Japan
Posts: 1,230
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
This is not a 'Vancouver is better than Edmonton' post...[H]ow much poop are Edmonton fans going to take from these guys before they finally realize they are jerking them around?
I think your entire post contradicts the first sentiment quoted above; I'm astonished that you could actually write that with a straight face-ever thought of running for office?

As for the second, astoundingly condescending point (we Oilers fans need you to liberate us from our slavish devotion): I guess I'll keeping taking poop from these guys until I'm convinced that my ideas about the Oilers are fundamentally, tragically flawed by by the shining truth of your vitriol.

Or, maybe I'd rather consume Kevin Lowe's poop than yours, Mizral.

Bohologo is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 09:53 AM
  #34
windowlicker
Registered User
 
windowlicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Murky Wisconsin
Country: United States
Posts: 2,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
When Burke got here as GM, Naslund was a 'pseudo-star' in this league, and Bertuzzi was where Isbister was 2 or 3 years ago. In other words, both were considered 'marginal' players. Second liners.

Burke then hired Marc Crawford, who, since his arrival, has helped turn Naslund into perhaps the biggest offensive threat in the NHL, and Bertuzzi into the best (arguably) power forward in the league.

Hiring a coach is a huge job. Burke went out and got a guy with cup experience and a guy who would bring in a strong system and a winning atmosphere.

Lowe brought in Craig MacTavish, who's biggest claim to fame right now is the league's worst penalty kill, and a power play that isn't much better.



That's right. Anyone who questions Lowe's actions must clearly be a 'Oilers hater'. Where's the rollseyes thingy when you need it?



Can't defend the Potvin experiment. It was a bad one. However, Cloutier has hardly turned out bad. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but outside of the post-season, Cloutier has been a fantastic keeper for us. Which is more than I can say for Tommy Salo, whom Kevin Lowe gave $4 million dollars to over a few years. At least with Cloutier, were were paying him in the vicinity of $1 million most of those years.



You forgot a few.

Sami Salo for Peter Schaefer

Trevor Linden for a 1st round pick (Boyd Gordon)

Trevor Letowski, Tyler Bouck, 3rd round pick (Brett Skinner) for Drake Berehowsky and Denis Pederson [pure addition by subtraction, but Bouck is still doing good in the pipeline and Letowski we got another pick from, from the Yotes for selecting him as a UFA. This trade, along with the Linden trade, turned around the 2001/2002 season for the Canucks, too]

Marek Malik and Darren Langdon for Jan Hlavac and Harold Druken

(There's more, just can't think of 'em right now)



The Sedin's have both been more successful than just about everyone in that draft (outside of Havlat and Jackman, I can't think of anybody better there). Nathan Smith was a mistake. Ference was not a Burke pick. Allen is playing very, very good right now, I don't see any basis for slagging him at all. RJ Umberger was a runner up for the Hobey Baker award last season, and will be an NHL player, regardless of what team he is on.

You forgot Kirril Koltsov, Jason King, Brandon Reid, and Ryan Kesler, by the way.

Oh, and the Canucks have 4 players currently at this years World Juniors tournament. Most notably, Ryan Kesler for the USA squad and the surprising Ilya Krikunov of the Russian League.




Perhaps the biggest difference is coaching. Burke hired Crawford. Lowe hired Craig MacTavish. The fortunes of a team rely so heavily on a coach these days, that the signing of a coach is perhaps the most underrated move a team can make. It's as important, or perhaps more in some cases, as signing/trading for a superstar forward or defenseman.

Furthermore, it's not always about the moves you make. It's the moves you don't make and when you make them. Burke is very adept at making moves at the right time more than anything else. Three times now (by my count), he has picked the Canucks up from a slump with a trade (Letowski/Linden in 2001/2002, Salo in 2002/2003, and Cloutier a while ago, forget exactly the time of the year and what year to be honest!). Lowe has not really done this at all.

This is not a 'Vancouver is better than Edmonton' post. I am very critical of Lowe for a reason. I like the Oilers, and think they could do a lot better in the management and coaching positions, and it pisses me off to see Lowe make moves like the Comrie one, get nothing back, and then have the fans eat it up and beg for more. How much poop are Edmonton fans going to take from these guys before they finally realize they are jerking them around?
Very weak arguments against what Laraque27 said. Sidestepping each major issue.

some of my thoughts:

(a) Naslunds and Bertuzzi's Main reason for any sort of success in this league is Crawford? Try late-bloomers.
(b) Burke's Twin experiment failure is due to that particular draft year being weak? Thats no excuse for him being the only GM to step up to the plate while the other 29 stayed the course.
(c) When Salo was signed, he was a bonafide #1 in the league, arguably top 7 in the NHL.
(d) Drafting Allen (who sounds like he May get to where Brewer was 4 years ago), Fedorov (finished as a Canuck), Umberger (finished as a Canuck) Chubarov (youre seriously impressed with him?), King (hows he doing lately?)...... im not saying this is worse than the Oilers recent draft record.. but is this better?

Also... at the time, was Bure for Jovo considered a fair swap?

Why this hardon hate for Oiler management and player development? The Canucks in the mean time have been guilty of as many mistakes as the Oilers have. Right now the Canucks have a great regular season team (leaking red at the seams) which is not build to win in the post-season. They have 2 seasons left of above average reg. season point production, before the core collapses, at which point they really have nothing to fall back upon. ( are the Twins, Kesler, Koltsov, Reid, Auld gonna carry this team in the next 3-4 years? thats alot of hope.)


Last edited by windowlicker: 01-01-2004 at 09:56 AM.
windowlicker is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 10:08 AM
  #35
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker

(a) Naslunds and Bertuzzi's Main reason for any sort of success in this league is Crawford? Try late-bloomers.
(b) Burke's Twin experiment failure is due to that particular draft year being weak? Thats no excuse for him being the only GM to step up to the plate while the other 29 stayed the course.
(c) When Salo was signed, he was a bonafide #1 in the league, arguably top 7 in the NHL.
(d) Drafting Allen (who sounds like he May get to where Brewer was 4 years ago), Fedorov (finished as a Canuck), Umberger (finished as a Canuck) Chubarov (youre seriously impressed with him?), King (hows he doing lately?)...... im not saying this is worse than the Oilers recent draft record.. but is this better?

Also... at the time, was Bure for Jovo considered a fair swap?
A) I did not say 'main reason'. However, I don't think they'd be as good had we hired Craig MacTavish instead of Marc Crawford.

B) Hold on - Twins are a failure? Says who? They are both amongst the top 5 in scorers for their draft year, are they not?

C) Agreed, but that's like saying when Eric Lindros was traded, he was a bonefide 1st liner, so it wasn't really Glen Sather's fault for getting him.

D) Allen, I feel, has a shot to be as good as Mattias Ohlund. To me, he's better than Ohlund was defensivly at the same age. He doesn't quite have the same offensive upside, but Allen is going to be much, much better than were Brewer was 4 years ago - if he isn't already!

Fedorov - agreed. Was worth the shot, but now a write off.

RJ - We'll get a 2nd round pick (compensation) for him.

Chubarov - He's no 40 goal scorer, but yes, I like Chubarov. I think he's better than most other bottom 6 forwards the Canucks have had years ago, and I think he's better than one or two of the Oilers' centremen too. Strictly a 3rd/4th line guy, mind you.

King - Still has more goals than any Oiler not named York.

Who said it was better? The Oilers have had more picks than the Canucks by a longshot. In 2002 alone, the Oilers picked 4 times before the Canucks even picked once.

Quote:
Why this hardon hate for Oiler management and player development? The Canucks in the mean time have been guilty of as many mistakes as the Oilers have. Right now the Canucks have a great regular season team (leaking red at the seams) which is not build to win in the post-season. They have 2 seasons left of above average reg. season point production, before the core collapses, at which point they really have nothing to fall back upon. ( are the Twins, Kesler, Koltsov, Reid, Auld gonna carry this team in the next 3-4 years? thats alot of hope.)
It's not a 'hard on hate'. I am dissapointed with how Lowe has run things. I don't hate Kevin Lowe. I don't think he can't get his stuff in order. It's just that I don't feel he has yet, and the Comrie trade for me was just really, really bad. He seems complacent with the current state of things.

As for the Canucks falling apart in 2 years, we heard this 2 years ago. We also heard that Bertuzzi and Naslund would be gone by now. Hasn't happened yet.

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 10:11 AM
  #36
Mr Sakich
Registered User
 
Mr Sakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Motel 35
Posts: 8,038
vCash: 500
mizral - here is a perfect opportunity to show off your encyclopedic memory. Please tell us all the story of how Burke tried to trade Naslund for a used jockstrap but was prevented from completing the transaction because another player broke a leg.

Mr Sakich is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 10:30 AM
  #37
Mr Sakich
Registered User
 
Mr Sakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Motel 35
Posts: 8,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
A) I did not say 'main reason'. However, I don't think they'd be as good had we hired Craig MacTavish instead of Marc Crawford.

B) Hold on - Twins are a failure? Says who? They are both amongst the top 5 in scorers for their draft year, are they not?

C) Agreed, but that's like saying when Eric Lindros was traded, he was a bonefide 1st liner, so it wasn't really Glen Sather's fault for getting him.

D) Allen, I feel, has a shot to be as good as Mattias Ohlund. To me, he's better than Ohlund was defensivly at the same age. He doesn't quite have the same offensive upside, but Allen is going to be much, much better than were Brewer was 4 years ago - if he isn't already!
A) I think most observers would say that Bertuzzi could be a better player if he had better coaching. The knock on him is not his skills, it is his tendancy to lose it. This is a coaching issue.

B) I have seen analysis on the nucks that showed that 57% of the canuck goals were scored by or assisted by bert or nazzy. The sedins are the biggest benefactors of playing with these two elite players, especially on the pp. Mizral, you are the only guy I know that defends Burke on those two. Considering the players he gave up and also the ones he missed, it was a blunder of epic proportions. Pick any two of Lundmark, havlat, Jackman, Ahonen, Semenov, Leopold, or Comrie as guys he could have picked without giving up McAbe.

C) ?

D) I like Allen as well. It is way too early to predict anything but he has a good chance of being a player.

Mr Sakich is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 10:37 AM
  #38
elphy101
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: City of Champions
Posts: 1,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

As for the Canucks falling apart in 2 years, we heard this 2 years ago. We also heard that Bertuzzi and Naslund would be gone by now. Hasn't happened yet.
In Edmonton, Naslund and Bertuzzi would probably be gone. The Oilers can't afford to pay 5 million for their top player nevermind 7 million. If we could have kept Weight and Guerin like Vancouver has kept Naslund and Bertuzzi. The standings in the NW division would be alot different.

Imagine an oilers first line of Smyth Weight Guerin.

elphy101 is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 10:38 AM
  #39
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
A) I did not say 'main reason'. However, I don't think they'd be as good had we hired Craig MacTavish instead of Marc Crawford.

B) Hold on - Twins are a failure? Says who? They are both amongst the top 5 in scorers for their draft year, are they not?

C) Agreed, but that's like saying when Eric Lindros was traded, he was a bonefide 1st liner, so it wasn't really Glen Sather's fault for getting him.

D) Allen, I feel, has a shot to be as good as Mattias Ohlund. To me, he's better than Ohlund was defensivly at the same age. He doesn't quite have the same offensive upside, but Allen is going to be much, much better than were Brewer was 4 years ago - if he isn't already!

Fedorov - agreed. Was worth the shot, but now a write off.

RJ - We'll get a 2nd round pick (compensation) for him.

Chubarov - He's no 40 goal scorer, but yes, I like Chubarov. I think he's better than most other bottom 6 forwards the Canucks have had years ago, and I think he's better than one or two of the Oilers' centremen too. Strictly a 3rd/4th line guy, mind you.

King - Still has more goals than any Oiler not named York.

Who said it was better? The Oilers have had more picks than the Canucks by a longshot. In 2002 alone, the Oilers picked 4 times before the Canucks even picked once.



It's not a 'hard on hate'. I am dissapointed with how Lowe has run things. I don't hate Kevin Lowe. I don't think he can't get his stuff in order. It's just that I don't feel he has yet, and the Comrie trade for me was just really, really bad. He seems complacent with the current state of things.

As for the Canucks falling apart in 2 years, we heard this 2 years ago. We also heard that Bertuzzi and Naslund would be gone by now. Hasn't happened yet.
Yes the Canucks have had a wonderful history? What exactly have they won? and how many crap seasons did Vancouver fans have to put up with.

Vancouver has had such a medicore NHL career that it has been frankly laughable for most of its existence that they finally get respectable.. Yes there were a few good seasons surrounded by mediocrity and that was before the financial disparity started.

Yes they have had a good couple of seasons and the Oilers are in 13th. How many times did we get to hold the Stanley Cup when Vancouver was celebrating an empty building because no one cared in Vancouver. I lived in Vancouver for 8 months and got to see how few people showed up in those days.

Tne Sedins are overrated. Wasn't it you Mizral that laughed at an Oiler fan earlier this season when we said that Hemsky would outscore the Sedin twins. Don't look now but the Sedin twins have 6 goals between then and Hemsky by himself has 9. Yes and how many times have you insulted Hemsky???

Yes the Canucks are better right now and have been helped by being able to afford to keep Naslund and Bertuzzi and Jovanoski while the Oilers had to trade Weight, Guerin, Joseph for financial reasons.

Also I don't buy your I like the Oilers argument, your posts bely that claim.

Your posts always seem condescending and like you are feeling sorry for us poor, pathetic Oiler fans. Oh I woudn't feel too sorry for us, we've had some good years and I am sure there will be more ahead.

hockeyaddict101 is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 10:58 AM
  #40
windowlicker
Registered User
 
windowlicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Murky Wisconsin
Country: United States
Posts: 2,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

B) Hold on - Twins are a failure? Says who? They are both amongst the top 5 in scorers for their draft year, are they not?
Having played a very high amount of games since their draft year for a team thats "arguably" better than Atlanta (Stefan), NYI/BUF (Connoly), NYI/BUF (Pyatt), Carolina/PHO (Tanabe), Boston(Boynton), Anaheim (Havelid) yeah, they'd Better be amongst top 5 in that group, if not way ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

D) Allen, I feel, has a shot to be as good as Mattias Ohlund. To me, he's better than Ohlund was defensivly at the same age. He doesn't quite have the same offensive upside, but Allen is going to be much, much better than were Brewer was 4 years ago - if he isn't already!
Did I read that right? the current Bryan Allen is better than the current Eric Brewer? Are you out of your mind ? (keep in mind, I have CenterIce, so yes, I have seen Allen play last/this year)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

King - Still has more goals than any Oiler not named York.
You're right, its better to score in bunches, rather than on a consistent basis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

Who said it was better? The Oilers have had more picks than the Canucks by a longshot. In 2002 alone, the Oilers picked 4 times before the Canucks even picked once.
Yet you use the Ottawa example to compare how Edmonton has fared in their "rebuilding mode". You admit that having upper-end draft positions helps, yet somehow compare Ottawa (with many years of Prime 1st round positions) to Edmonton (never a Detroit or New Jersey draft position, yet never really as bad as Ottawa to land a top 3 first rounder)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

It's not a 'hard on hate'. I am dissapointed with how Lowe has run things. I don't hate Kevin Lowe. I don't think he can't get his stuff in order. It's just that I don't feel he has yet, and the Comrie trade for me was just really, really bad. He seems complacent with the current state of things.
Again, when Bure went for Jovo, it was "Best pure goal scorer" going to the East for a steady young Dman with tons of potential who should never have gone 1st overall. [In essence, a Certified NHL goal scoring talent for a promising former first rounder young Dman, and some may argue that Comrie isnt really all that proven in the NHL at this time yet)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

As for the Canucks falling apart in 2 years, we heard this 2 years ago. We also heard that Bertuzzi and Naslund would be gone by now. Hasn't happened yet.
The new CBA will take care of that.


Last edited by windowlicker: 01-01-2004 at 11:06 AM.
windowlicker is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:13 PM
  #41
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
mizral - here is a perfect opportunity to show off your encyclopedic memory. Please tell us all the story of how Burke tried to trade Naslund for a used jockstrap but was prevented from completing the transaction because another player broke a leg.
That was MIKE KEENAN, Sakich, for the second time. You were already corrected on that once now.

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:14 PM
  #42
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphy101
In Edmonton, Naslund and Bertuzzi would probably be gone. The Oilers can't afford to pay 5 million for their top player nevermind 7 million. If we could have kept Weight and Guerin like Vancouver has kept Naslund and Bertuzzi. The standings in the NW division would be alot different.

Imagine an oilers first line of Smyth Weight Guerin.
If the Oilers had some more cash, I agree, they'd be a heck of a force (they would have been able to keep Weight at least).

However, without cash, why can't they at least be a Minnesota Wild?

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:19 PM
  #43
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
Yes the Canucks have had a wonderful history? What exactly have they won? and how many crap seasons did Vancouver fans have to put up with.

Vancouver has had such a medicore NHL career that it has been frankly laughable for most of its existence that they finally get respectable.. Yes there were a few good seasons surrounded by mediocrity and that was before the financial disparity started.

Yes they have had a good couple of seasons and the Oilers are in 13th. How many times did we get to hold the Stanley Cup when Vancouver was celebrating an empty building because no one cared in Vancouver. I lived in Vancouver for 8 months and got to see how few people showed up in those days.
Agreed, Vancouver has been a terrible franchise success-wise. Only LA could even come close to the overall crappiness, I'd say. Want to hear a really, really sad fact? The Canucks have a grand total of ZERO players in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Yikes.

Quote:
Tne Sedins are overrated. Wasn't it you Mizral that laughed at an Oiler fan earlier this season when we said that Hemsky would outscore the Sedin twins. Don't look now but the Sedin twins have 6 goals between then and Hemsky by himself has 9. Yes and how many times have you insulted Hemsky???
When did I insult Hemsky? Can't remember ever saying that, I like Hemsky.

I did post that I thought Henrik Sedin would have more points than Hemsky this year. Doesn't look good right now, but Henrik is playing a lot worse than I foresaw.

Quote:
Your posts always seem condescending and like you are feeling sorry for us poor, pathetic Oiler fans. Oh I woudn't feel too sorry for us, we've had some good years and I am sure there will be more ahead.
I don't mean to be condescending, but I do have strong opinions. I do not like the way the Oilers are heading, and I spoke up about it often in the off-season. I was lambasted en masse, called an idiot and a 'hater' for saying the Oilers would finish 10th in the conference. Now, finishing 10th for most Oiler fans looks quite realistic. I don't mean to say I'm always right, but I do think that my opinions are valid here, just like yours are.

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:21 PM
  #44
Phanuthier*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Murder capital (Edm)
Posts: 10,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbam99
Ya know...I used to hate the Flames. Thats back in the 80's when either you liked the Oilers or the Flames. Now I really hate the Leafs and the Canucks...why? The fans. Cannot stand the arrogance of either the Leaf fans or the Canuck fans. Its funny though...you'd think that the Flame fans would have a slice of humble pie...they haven't won a playoff series since '89. Thats 15 years. I think its been 7 since they made the playoffs?? Anyway, my point is you Flame fans have no reason for the arrogance. You have sucked for 15 years. I'm truly glad that you have played well this year, and it looks like you may make the playoffs for the first time in a while. But run your mouths the way you guys do and not make the playoffs...LMAO...its too funny just thinking about it. You guys will come back to earth, you aren't that good.
Speaking of arrogance...

Phanuthier* is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:23 PM
  #45
momentai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
C) Agreed, but that's like saying when Eric Lindros was traded, he was a bonefide 1st liner, so it wasn't really Glen Sather's fault for getting him.
I'm nitpicking but Eric Lindros was nowhere near a bonafide 1st liner after his holdout/concussion problems in Philadelphia. He was out of the NHL for an entire year and concussion symptons were a major concern as to the health and effectiveness of Eric a player.

Eric, at the time, was a huge gamble at best.... and few believed he would be able to play with the same style that made him so very effective in his first few seasons.. (ie/ the physical nature). Bonafide isn't the right term to use in this instance. More like a "shot in the dark".

momentai is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:25 PM
  #46
momentai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
When did I insult Hemsky? Can't remember ever saying that, I like Hemsky.

I did post that I thought Henrik Sedin would have more points than Hemsky this year. Doesn't look good right now, but Henrik is playing a lot worse than I foresaw.
I remember you posting that you believed that Hemsky had very limited shooting ability and for that reason he would take a step back this year in terms of point production. Also, he would not become a good player because of those limitations. Look out... but Hemsky has 9 goals.

You also stated that you would take Henrik Sedin over Hemsky any day. You can stand by that if you like.. but it's probably a minority opinion at the moment.

momentai is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:39 PM
  #47
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
Having played a very high amount of games since their draft year for a team thats "arguably" better than Atlanta (Stefan), NYI/BUF (Connoly), NYI/BUF (Pyatt), Carolina/PHO (Tanabe), Boston(Boynton), Anaheim (Havelid) yeah, they'd Better be amongst top 5 in that group, if not way ahead
Alright. Glad we agree.

Quote:
Did I read that right? the current Bryan Allen is better than the current Eric Brewer? Are you out of your mind ? (keep in mind, I have CenterIce, so yes, I have seen Allen play last/this year)
No, you're not reading that right. I am saying Allen is better right now than Eric Brewer was in Long Island.

Quote:
You're right, its better to score in bunches, rather than on a consistent basis
Is Raffi Torres any more consistant? No. Doesn't mean he's a bad player, windowlicker.

Quote:
Yet you use the Ottawa example to compare how Edmonton has fared in their "rebuilding mode". You admit that having upper-end draft positions helps, yet somehow compare Ottawa (with many years of Prime 1st round positions) to Edmonton (never a Detroit or New Jersey draft position, yet never really as bad as Ottawa to land a top 3 first rounder)
During the 90's, the Oilers had quite a few top picks. Never pulled anything off. However, look at some of the core players in Ottawa now?

Daniel Alfredsson - #133 overall, 1994
Marian Hossa - #12 overall, 1997
Martin Havlat - #26 overall, 1999
Zdeno Chara - #56 overall, 1996 (Isles)
Patrick Lalime - #156 overall, 1993 (Pens)

Now obviously Redden (#2 overall), Phillips (#1 overall), and Bonk (#3) overall are parts of their core too, but Ottawa is a good lesson that while top picks help, THEY ARE NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL when it comes to building a franchise.

Compare that to the Oilers 'future' core of:

Ales Hemsky - #13 overall, 2001
Raffi Torres - #5 overall, 2000(Isles)
Eric Brewer - #5 overall, 1997 (Isles)
Jeff Woywitka - #27 overall, 2001 (Flyers)
Jaret Stoll - #36 overall, 2002
Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers - #31 overall, 2002
Mike York - #136 overall, 1997
Alexei Semenov - #36 overall, 1999

Those are not exactly low picks. Other than York, all of them are first rounders or upper-end first rounders, and two of 'em are top 5 picks (compared to the Sens having 3). Still, overall, the picks are not all that big of a difference, especially since of the three guys the Sens took, only one (Redden) has lived up to the pick.

For the Sens, picking up the Havlat's and the Alfredsson's have been just as important as picking the Redden's and now, the future big-time Sen, Spezza.

Quote:
Again, when Bure went for Jovo, it was "Best pure goal scorer" going to the East for a steady young Dman with tons of potential who should never have gone 1st overall. [In essence, a Certified NHL goal scoring talent for a promising former first rounder young Dman, and some may argue that Comrie isnt really all that proven in the NHL at this time yet)
Keep in mind, Bure was gone for a year, he was demanding $10 million US per season. At the time, but Bure deal was considered the worst deal in the history of the Canucks franchise (yes, worse than Neely). Now, it is widely regarded as one of Brian Burke's best move. He took a guy that wasn't going to play here and turned him into a #1 defenseman and a bunch of other things.

The only thing that still bothers me over the Bure deal is that we lost Brett Hedican, whom I still really like (and I think would make a GREAT Oiler after his brutal contract runs out and becomes a UFA).

Quote:
The new CBA will take care of that.
The new CBA will make it harder for the Canucks to keep their players? Uhh.. huh.. if that's the case, you may as well send Hemsky his walking papers right now.

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:42 PM
  #48
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
I remember you posting that you believed that Hemsky had very limited shooting ability and for that reason he would take a step back this year in terms of point production. Also, he would not become a good player because of those limitations. Look out... but Hemsky has 9 goals.

You also stated that you would take Henrik Sedin over Hemsky any day. You can stand by that if you like.. but it's probably a minority opinion at the moment.
HAH! Absolutely BULLOCKS momentai. I thought that Hemsky would finish this season with something like 6 goals and 40 assists, yes, but I did, at no time, ever say that Hemsky would not become a good player. That is absolute stupidity. I've always said Hemsky has a ton of potential, it's just a matter of reaching it. Same goes for Henrik Sedin.

As for saying I'd take Henrik over Hemsky, yeah I did say that. I'm not sure how I feel about that now.

I also remember on that thread, that there was a big Allen versus Semenov arguement with another Canuck fan there and a bunch of Oiler fans too taking Semenov, and the Canuck fan (and myself, natch) said Allen. Would that be different now do you think?

Mizral is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:48 PM
  #49
Narnia
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Narnia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,394
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Narnia
Miz, one problem with 1997. Ottawa drafted before Edmonton so the Oilers didn't have a chance for Marian Hossa. Ottawa also had the luxury of drafting in the top 5 more than Edmonton. It's unfair to compare Edmonton and Ottawa in drafting. I made a post about that a couple of months ago as well.

__________________
"He just ate up Robyn Regehr for dinner, a spectacular play by Hemsky, and Robyn Regehr has got doo doo all over his face" - Rod Phillips call on Hemsky's goal vs the Flames
Narnia is offline  
Old
01-01-2004, 12:52 PM
  #50
momentai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
HAH! Absolutely BULLOCKS momentai. I thought that Hemsky would finish this season with something like 6 goals and 40 assists, yes, but I did, at no time, ever say that Hemsky would not become a good player. That is absolute stupidity. I've always said Hemsky has a ton of potential, it's just a matter of reaching it. Same goes for Henrik Sedin.
Good may not be the same definition for you and I. I, along with a few others, believed that he had the potential and had shown the ability to get to an 80 pt season in his career at some point. You had stated that his upside was a 60 pt player at best because his limitations as a scorer and his "diminutivenss" would hinder his ability to be that player a lot of us saw he could be. I probably was unclear but that was what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I also remember on that thread, that there was a big Allen versus Semenov arguement with another Canuck fan there and a bunch of Oiler fans too taking Semenov, and the Canuck fan (and myself, natch) said Allen. Would that be different now do you think?
Not a chance for me but you're welcome to disagree as I think you will.


Last edited by momentai: 01-01-2004 at 01:04 PM.
momentai is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.