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Where would we be without the Lowe trades?

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Old
01-01-2004, 01:01 PM
  #51
windowlicker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
The new CBA will make it harder for the Canucks to keep their players? Uhh.. huh.. if that's the case, you may as well send Hemsky his walking papers right now.

Right now Naslund and Bertuzzi are considered elite NHL players on a mid-level market team. Lately, they usually appear near the top of NHL offensive categories. It took Naslund 8 years in this league to reach an upper-level star status ( I consider the 2000/2001 season his overall arrival), and it took Bertuzzi 7 years to get there (the 2001/2002 season)
Now, unless Ales starts to REALLY put up the numbers soon, I dont understand the "Walking Papers" remark. If he gets to that uppder-level in the next 7-8 years, good for him, then he will deserve the superstar money, and Then we will see if the Oilers can keep him.

When the new CBA hits, how will the Canucks be able to keep two NHL stars like that? (I can only imagine how much Naslund would want on his next contract.... if he decides to stay in NA)

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01-01-2004, 01:02 PM
  #52
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Mizral, I like how you ignored the real facts behind Salo's salary.

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However, without cash, why can't they at least be a Minnesota Wild?
The Oiler refuse to adopt their system, though I wouldn't mind if it meant more W's in the win column.

And Torres and King are two different style players. Torres is expected to be a momentum changing power forward while King is expected to be a sniper, right?

And yes, we took as an insult when you said Hemsky would not improve this year.

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but Allen is going to be much, much better than were Brewer was 4 years ago - if he isn't already!
Right here is where you not only implied but outright proclaimed Allen is better than Brewer. Now theres some absolute bollocks! Brewer has been dominating and is playing just as good as he did during the 9-in-a-row the Oilers had in 2001.

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01-01-2004, 01:08 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
If the Oilers had some more cash, I agree, they'd be a heck of a force (they would have been able to keep Weight at least).

However, without cash, why can't they at least be a Minnesota Wild?
Would being the Minnesota Wild really be much to be excited about?


Their team is a couple of quality young players (but on the whole I prefer our youth to theirs) ... and after that it's (to quote Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York) "a few crusty ******es and a handful of rag-tags." (sorry. Bill the Butcher is my new idol, and I had to fit that in.)

The only thing separating Minnesota from being the frontrunner in the Ovenchicken Sweepstakes is Jacques Lemaire. I agree that better coaching would help the Oilers, but Lemaire is just an abomination. I absolutely agree that the Oilers could and SHOULD play better defensively and could do it without being boring... but the Minnesota Wild are not the model for that.

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01-01-2004, 01:20 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I also remember on that thread, that there was a big Allen versus Semenov arguement with another Canuck fan there and a bunch of Oiler fans too taking Semenov, and the Canuck fan (and myself, natch) said Allen. Would that be different now do you think?
Has Allen done much to excel himself since then? He's a minus player on a dominating team, and to my eyes (not that I see him that often) he has little going for him other than his size. He's big, tall, can get into the rough stuff... which is super, but nothing about him really screams high-end potential... if anything, he makes me think more of a jumbo-sized Sean Brown. Semenov's a year younger and has a better set of physical tools-- and he's a plus player on the Oilers. I think it's reasonable to have expectations of him becoming a better player than Allen.

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01-01-2004, 01:45 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
During the 90's, the Oilers had quite a few top picks. Never pulled anything off. However, look at some of the core players in Ottawa now?
Obviously the Oilers drafting was pretty wretched from the dynasty years up until 1998, with just a few picks (Smyth, Arnott, Miro Satan) turning into anything of value.

Not sure what this has to do with a discussion of Lowe's abilities as a GM, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Daniel Alfredsson - #133 overall, 1994
Marian Hossa - #12 overall, 1997
Martin Havlat - #26 overall, 1999
Zdeno Chara - #56 overall, 1996 (Isles) (acquired for former #2 overall pick Alexei Yashin)
Patrick Lalime - #156 overall, 1993 (Pens)

Now obviously Redden (#2 overall), Phillips (#1 overall), and Bonk (#3) overall are parts of their core too, but Ottawa is a good lesson that while top picks help, THEY ARE NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL when it comes to building a franchise.
Aside from Alfredsson and Lalime, your list doesn't do much to support the argument that Ottawa's success hasn't stemmed from their high draft picks. #1 Center, #1 RW, #1 defenseman, #3 defenseman, and top young player Havlat, all acquired directly with high draft picks, plus their #2 defenseman and top prospect acquired by trading a former #2 overall pick.

Obviously the Senators' success hasn't just come from having high draft picks. It has come from drafting *well* at *all* parts of the draft. There's no argument that the Senators drafted better than the Oilers during that time. And there's no arguing that the Oilers drafted poorly throughout most of the 1990s either.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the current discussion, however. Kevin Lowe has only been running the Oilers' draft since 2000. From the discussion of the Senators' draft picks, it's clear that their outstanding drafting in the mid 1990s didn't really start having an on-ice impact for them until about 5 years later. For the Oilers, Kevin Lowe's draft picks are only beginning to enter the NHL, and the early returns (Hemsky, Stoll) are pretty promising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Compare that to the Oilers 'future' core of:

Ales Hemsky - #13 overall, 2001
Raffi Torres - #5 overall, 2000(Isles)
Eric Brewer - #5 overall, 1997 (Isles)
Jeff Woywitka - #27 overall, 2001 (Flyers)
Jaret Stoll - #36 overall, 2002
Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers - #31 overall, 2002
Mike York - #136 overall, 1997
Alexei Semenov - #36 overall, 1999
See, this is why people find you frustrating. You've been criticizing the work Lowe's done in building for the future, then post a list like this-- what looks like the makings of an excellent young core, all (except York) 24 and under, and all players that Lowe has acquired.

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01-01-2004, 01:58 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Good may not be the same definition for you and I. I, along with a few others, believed that he had the potential and had shown the ability to get to an 80 pt season in his career at some point. You had stated that his upside was a 60 pt player at best because his limitations as a scorer and his "diminutivenss" would hinder his ability to be that player a lot of us saw he could be. I probably was unclear but that was what I meant.
I have compared Hemsky to Demitra and Hejduk on other boards. 60 points at best? Uh, no, maybe 60 points *at worst*.

I did say that A) he must develop his shot, and B) he must develop his defensive game, and C) he must become more of a gritty player. But even if he doesn't, he should be a decent 2nd line player. If he does, he could be a 1st line top-end player such as a Demitra and Hejduk.

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01-01-2004, 02:00 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by windowlicker
Now, unless Ales starts to REALLY put up the numbers soon, I dont understand the "Walking Papers" remark. If he gets to that uppder-level in the next 7-8 years, good for him, then he will deserve the superstar money, and Then we will see if the Oilers can keep him.

When the new CBA hits, how will the Canucks be able to keep two NHL stars like that? (I can only imagine how much Naslund would want on his next contract.... if he decides to stay in NA)
What I mean is this: Currently Bertuzzi is making $6.9 million and Naslund $5.5 (if he puts up 50 goals, 100 points, or makes the 3rd round of the playoffs, $6 or more). You'd think that after the CBA drops, those salaries will go down slightly.

I would argue that with Hemsky, you guys will probobly never have to pay him more than $5 million bucks unless he is the next Peter Forsberg. The CBA should help the Oilers a ton, and it should help the Canucks just the same way.

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01-01-2004, 02:08 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Mizral, I like how you ignored the real facts behind Salo's salary.
It doesn't make him any less overpayed now.

Is Lapointe at $5.5 million reasonable because when they signed him, he had a big season? Of course not.

Quote:
The Oiler refuse to adopt their system, though I wouldn't mind if it meant more W's in the win column.

And Torres and King are two different style players. Torres is expected to be a momentum changing power forward while King is expected to be a sniper, right?
King has been compared to Ryan Smyth, actually. He is a fixture in front of the oppositions net. King is actually very, very much like Torres. I thought Torres would be more of a Matt Cooke-type before, but now I see they are both quite similar players.

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And yes, we took as an insult when you said Hemsky would not improve this year.
See, this is just what I don't get. You get personally insulted just because some guy on the internet doesn't think a player on the local hockey team is going to score 60 points the next hockey season?

I read this board often, and see 'Sedin's suck', 'Bertuzzi is overrated and a whiner'. Doesn't bother me, I don't get insulted when you say it. It's just your opinion, and I think differently. Big deal!

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Right here is where you not only implied but outright proclaimed Allen is better than Brewer. Now theres some absolute bollocks! Brewer has been dominating and is playing just as good as he did during the 9-in-a-row the Oilers had in 2001.
No, actually, you're not thinking on this correctly. Brewer was 19 years old in Long Island, Allen is 23 years old right now. It's not crazy to suggest Allen at 23 is better than Brewer was at 19 at all. A better comparison for Allen would be Chris Phillips, though.

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01-01-2004, 02:15 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I have compared Hemsky to Demitra and Hejduk on other boards. 60 points at best? Uh, no, maybe 60 points *at worst*.

I did say that A) he must develop his shot, and B) he must develop his defensive game, and C) he must become more of a gritty player. But even if he doesn't, he should be a decent 2nd line player. If he does, he could be a 1st line top-end player such as a Demitra and Hejduk.
Actually I remember you comparing him to a Saku Koivu here... as well as a Sergei Samsonov player with 60 pt upside. Never did I hear you state that 60 pts was the absolute worst case scenario for young Hemsky. I believe the range you expected of him was in between 60-70 pts?

And he is beginning to shoot more often... and has never really been too soft a player either along the boards or cruising through the neutral zone. I think there are more pressing concerns for Hemsky and the Oilers than his "grittiness".

EDIT: http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...43&postcount=2

Assumingly in his prime, you did say 60-70 pts. And I can find nowhere on this board that mentions Demitra or Hejduk by yourself. It's hard to address that in an argument when it hasn't been stated anywhere here on the board.


Last edited by momentai: 01-01-2004 at 04:59 PM.
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01-01-2004, 02:22 PM
  #60
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I don't know why you guys let Mizral wind you up. Arguing with him is like me arguing with my 17 year old son. He starts out with a bunch on nonsense delivered in a deliberately insulting tone and moves to a sophisticated version of 'did so' 'did not' ending in a 'I don't know why you guys take it so personally' whine. The format never varies. It is like reading Harlequin Romances (showing my age here) read one you've read them all. Only real question is how did this guy ever become a moderator? Maybe that would make a good thread.

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01-01-2004, 03:29 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
I don't know why you guys let Mizral wind you up. Arguing with him is like me arguing with my 17 year old son. He starts out with a bunch on nonsense delivered in a deliberately insulting tone and moves to a sophisticated version of 'did so' 'did not' ending in a 'I don't know why you guys take it so personally' whine. The format never varies. It is like reading Harlequin Romances (showing my age here) read one you've read them all. Only real question is how did this guy ever become a moderator? Maybe that would make a good thread.

But, but..... how can we take his criticism so personally, let alone challenge anything he has to say?.... We just keep forgetting that hes a fellow Oilers "fan", therefore free to rip on the team without being labelled a troll. Or.... Im not sure how it works at HFBoards, but are Moderators allowed to troll?

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01-01-2004, 04:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by windowlicker
Im not sure how it works at HFBoards, but are Moderators allowed to troll?
If you take Mizral as an example it would seem that it is a basic requirement of the job and our guys (Lowetide and RabiSultan) just don't understand the job description.

The funny thing is that Mizral gets us every time and actually provokes some of the most interesting and informative responses we see on this board. It is just that the "oh . . . why am I so misunderstood" bs is a little tiring. Wanna troll Mizral I don't mind. Please just drop the hypocracy.

Besides, I lived in BC for awhile and had to watch Canuck games a few years back. It would make anybody bitter.

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01-01-2004, 04:33 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by reg dunlop
i am a flames fan and while we are enjoying the run, most of us are not exactly planning the stanley cup route either... as for kevin lowe, i think he has done a decent job up there, it is hard to trade players when every G.M in the league knows you have to trade them... is it Lowes fault that Salo has had a bad year, that Ryan Smyth is not scoring?? i know i would sooner have Dvorak than Anson Carter... as a flames fan and a canadian team fan ( except the leafs), i hope edmonton turns the corner and both calgary and edmonton both make the playoffs...
Excuse me ...who are you and what have you done with Raggie Dunlops body?

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01-01-2004, 06:02 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
Obviously the Oilers drafting was pretty wretched from the dynasty years up until 1998, with just a few picks (Smyth, Arnott, Miro Satan) turning into anything of value.

Not sure what this has to do with a discussion of Lowe's abilities as a GM, however.
Agreed. Sather made a ton of mistakes, but some of his drafting is criticized a bit too harshly. A good example is Jason Bonsignre. Everyone thought that kid was going to be something special, and nobody could predict what happened. It's a real shame too, since from what I understand, he was a real good kid.

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Aside from Alfredsson and Lalime, your list doesn't do much to support the argument that Ottawa's success hasn't stemmed from their high draft picks. #1 Center, #1 RW, #1 defenseman, #3 defenseman, and top young player Havlat, all acquired directly with high draft picks, plus their #2 defenseman and top prospect acquired by trading a former #2 overall pick.

Obviously the Senators' success hasn't just come from having high draft picks. It has come from drafting *well* at *all* parts of the draft. There's no argument that the Senators drafted better than the Oilers during that time. And there's no arguing that the Oilers drafted poorly throughout most of the 1990s either.
What I was trying to illustrate here is that most of the Sens picks that picked up their key players were not the top 5 picks. Compare Hossa at the #12 pick to Hemsky to the #13. The point is, it's not impossible to get core players with these draft picks. Look at Brewer compared to Redden for instance. Obviously Redden is older, but can Brewer be a 'Redden-like' #1 defenseman? Can the guys that Lowe assembled be core players, that's the key. And if they can, can they be real good core players that creates a contender, or will they be just fair-to-midlan core players that creates another 'on the bubble' team? That's the big question for me! I feel that Brewer and Hemsky are going to be real good core players, but it's the other guys I worry about - can they really be good enough? I don't see much top-end talent there right now, so that's the problem for Lowe for me. Look at the Coyotes this year for instance? Doan, Nagy, and possibly Mara all have top-notch potential, with a bunch of other guys in the 'pretty good' area. For the Oilers, I only see Hemsky and Brewer as I said. The Coyotes are going to be a team that the Oilers need to be better than down the road. Can they? Compare their core to other teams, and I don't think it's good enough.. yet.

Quote:
I'm not sure what that has to do with the current discussion, however. Kevin Lowe has only been running the Oilers' draft since 2000. From the discussion of the Senators' draft picks, it's clear that their outstanding drafting in the mid 1990s didn't really start having an on-ice impact for them until about 5 years later. For the Oilers, Kevin Lowe's draft picks are only beginning to enter the NHL, and the early returns (Hemsky, Stoll) are pretty promising.
Promising returns is one thing, but winning is entirely another. I wouldn't be so annoyed if the Oilers were an expansion club like the Sens were, but if you listen to many of your compatriots here on the board, the Oilers are supposely, 'Not Rebuilding'. The losing the Oilers are going through right now are season-crippling, and Lowe has done only one thing to address this - Adam Oates, who currently is doing his best Jiri Dopita impression.

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See, this is why people find you frustrating. You've been criticizing the work Lowe's done in building for the future, then post a list like this-- what looks like the makings of an excellent young core, all (except York) 24 and under, and all players that Lowe has acquired.
It's a good young core, not an excellent one. Excellent cores can be found in Nashville, LA, and Phoenix. Unfortunatly, these are teams that the Oilers will be competing with.

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01-01-2004, 06:10 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Actually I remember you comparing him to a Saku Koivu here... as well as a Sergei Samsonov player with 60 pt upside. Never did I hear you state that 60 pts was the absolute worst case scenario for young Hemsky. I believe the range you expected of him was in between 60-70 pts?

And he is beginning to shoot more often... and has never really been too soft a player either along the boards or cruising through the neutral zone. I think there are more pressing concerns for Hemsky and the Oilers than his "grittiness".

EDIT: http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...43&postcount=2

Assumingly in his prime, you did say 60-70 pts. And I can find nowhere on this board that mentions Demitra or Hejduk by yourself. It's hard to address that in an argument when it hasn't been stated anywhere here on the board.
Actually, I still like the Koivu comparison. Don't you? I think they are somewhat similar players.

However, keep in mind, this was before I got a better look at Hemsky's shot. Now, I'd be more inclined to say 30 goals, 70 - 80 points.

But a Saku Koivu-like 60 - 70 points with 20 goals is still a SOLID player in this league, however you slice it.

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01-01-2004, 06:44 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
And I can find nowhere on this board that mentions Demitra or Hejduk by yourself. It's hard to address that in an argument when it hasn't been stated anywhere here on the board.
Took me a while, but I found this post in which I refered to Hemsky as similar to Hejduk:

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Hemsky - Hejduk with perhaps less goal scoring and better playmaking. 1st line upside. (No rating, but I assume it's an 8.5 or 9)
That should more or less finish this arguement, no?

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01-01-2004, 06:44 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
It's a good young core, not an excellent one. Excellent cores can be found in Nashville, LA, and Phoenix. Unfortunatly, these are teams that the Oilers will be competing with.
Each of the teams that you have listed are a work in progress, moreso than the current Canucks. That said, the core that you are talking about may or may not lead to success in the future.

To put this in perspective, for 1999-2000, Vancouver had the following players who are still on the roster. (I'm counting May as if he never left.);

Naslund (65pts in 82 games),
Bertuzzi (50pts in 80 games),
Jovanovski (26pts in 75 games),
Chubarov (9pts in 49 games),
Ohlund (20pts in 42 games),
May (16pts in 59 games),
Sopel (12pts in 18 games),
Ruutu (1pt in 13 games),
Morrison (1/2 season- brought over via the Mogilny trade)

As you can see, the results were underwhelming, and with the revolving door in goal, the results were reflected in the standings.

Out of the roster, there were
Mogilny (1/2 season),
Aucoin,
Cassels,
Scatchard,
Messier,
Brashear,
Baron,

As well as a series of career AHL'ers (Steve Kariya, Greg Hawgood, etc.) Vancouver finished with a record of (30-37-15, 83 points that season)

From the Vancouver Canucks almanac;
<i>Marc Crawford said post-game, "There's a lot of emotions for all involved, but the one emotion we wanted is the one Edmonton has - they have a bit of elation because they came back and found a way to win.

Our guys are disheartened, disappointed and upset. To lose in that fashion... is tough."</i>

That said, judging the core of the Canucks then, as with judging the core of the Oilers, Flames, Wild, etc. now, only paints part of the picture.

Criticize the past all you want.

Only time will tell what the future will bring...

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01-01-2004, 06:49 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by victor
That said, judging the core of the Canucks then, as with judging the core of the Oilers, Flames, Wild, etc. now, only paints part of the picture.

Criticize the past all you want.

Only time will tell what the future will bring...
Couldn't agree more. We are debating on whatever shreds of information we have now, and are attempting to understand what the future will hold before it unfolds. It's a difficult task, and surely isn't perfect. I could easily be very, very wrong about everything I post in this thread, and I make no qualms about it! But even still, I think my criticism of management in the lack of top-end talent of the youngsters is still warrented. And I think it could represent a problem down a road - but then again, as your post showed, I could be wrong!

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01-01-2004, 06:55 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

The new CBA will make it harder for the Canucks to keep their players? Uhh.. huh.. if that's the case, you may as well send Hemsky his walking papers right now.
Tom Benjamin on the business of hockey board has argued quite convincingly how a hard cap will screw the Canucks and Senators over. You shoud read his posts; they are very intelligent.

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01-01-2004, 06:59 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Couldn't agree more. We are debating on whatever shreds of information we have now, and are attempting to understand what the future will hold before it unfolds. It's a difficult task, and surely isn't perfect. I could easily be very, very wrong about everything I post in this thread, and I make no qualms about it! But even still, I think my criticism of management in the lack of top-end talent of the youngsters is still warrented. And I think it could represent a problem down a road - but then again, as your post showed, I could be wrong!
Judging my some of the work Guy F has done, it seems that the Oiler's brass understands the lack of high end talent. I think they are going to switch from trying to draft "heart and soul" guys to drafting skill guys. Fact is, you need both to have a successful hockey team.

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01-01-2004, 07:03 PM
  #71
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Agreed about Tom, he is a brilliant guy. However, I also have read some of piston's stuff with Tom (on another board), and piston is surely Tom's equal, but has it the other way. piston was the guy who opened the Kings' books and took a peek this year, and made headlines for doing so. There was a great thread on a Canucks board actually, about 4 months ago. I put a link up on the Business of Hockey board, shortly after they put it up. If you want to find it, check out the first page of the Business of Hockey board. Maybe the 2nd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
Judging my some of the work Guy F has done, it seems that the Oiler's brass understands the lack of high end talent. I think they are going to switch from trying to draft "heart and soul" guys to drafting skill guys. Fact is, you need both to have a successful hockey team.
If this is the case, then that'd change my ideas of Lowe. However, until then, I'm entitled to grumble to my hearts' content

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01-01-2004, 07:12 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Couldn't agree more. We are debating on whatever shreds of information we have now, and are attempting to understand what the future will hold before it unfolds. It's a difficult task, and surely isn't perfect. I could easily be very, very wrong about everything I post in this thread, and I make no qualms about it! But even still, I think my criticism of management in the lack of top-end talent of the youngsters is still warrented. And I think it could represent a problem down a road - but then again, as your post showed, I could be wrong!
It's always a crapshoot, the draft especially. One injury here, a bad agent there, the right player in the wrong system...



That said, I don't believe that talent will be the Oilers downfall. The group of players and prospects that the Oilers have are impressive.

With prospects like;
Deslauriers, MAP, Ninnimaki, Mikhnov, Brodziak, Lynch, Woywitka,

And young players like;
York, Hemsky, Isbister, Dvorak, Torres, Brewer, Semenov, Stoll.

it's hard say that the future looks bleak. Do I see all of these players here in four years? No, but I see the same type of core that makes up the great teams.

With that said, I think that some of the criticisms are well founded. The current coaching staff of the Oilers is deplorable, and shows in the standings. I often wonder if the coaches aren't learning along with the young players. My hope is that they improve with time...

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01-01-2004, 07:13 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Actually, I still like the Koivu comparison. Don't you? I think they are somewhat similar players.

However, keep in mind, this was before I got a better look at Hemsky's shot. Now, I'd be more inclined to say 30 goals, 70 - 80 points.

But a Saku Koivu-like 60 - 70 points with 20 goals is still a SOLID player in this league, however you slice it.
I don't mind it. But the fact remains is that we all relatively knew about Hemsky's shot beforehand. We knew what kind of scorer he was... it wasn't a matter of not being able to shoot but a matter of having the confidence to use it.

I'm not so much bothered by the comparison as to the reasoning behind it. You've said in the past that his shot wasn't great and he would limited to a 20 goal season. On that point most of us disagreed. Why? Because we have seen Hemsky's shot and knew what it was capable of and it was by no means a fatal flaw in his game. He's always had it.

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01-01-2004, 07:15 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
That should more or less finish this arguement, no?
It does.

But you've compared him to quite a lot of players.. Hejduk/Ray Whitney/Samsonov/Koivu... any more? (I can think of Havlat or even to a lesser extent Hossa)

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01-01-2004, 07:41 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Agreed. Sather made a ton of mistakes, but some of his drafting is criticized a bit too harshly. A good example is Jason Bonsignre. Everyone thought that kid was going to be something special, and nobody could predict what happened. It's a real shame too, since from what I understand, he was a real good kid.
Well, if Bonsignore was the only one, then Sather's drafting record would be excusable. At least Bonsignore played some NHL games, which can't be said for many Oiler first-rounders between 1983 and 1999.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
And if they can, can they be real good core players that creates a contender, or will they be just fair-to-midlan core players that creates another 'on the bubble' team? That's the big question for me! I feel that Brewer and Hemsky are going to be real good core players, but it's the other guys I worry about - can they really be good enough? I don't see much top-end talent there right now, so that's the problem for Lowe for me. Look at the Coyotes this year for instance? Doan, Nagy, and possibly Mara all have top-notch potential, with a bunch of other guys in the 'pretty good' area. For the Oilers, I only see Hemsky and Brewer as I said. The Coyotes are going to be a team that the Oilers need to be better than down the road. Can they? Compare their core to other teams, and I don't think it's good enough.. yet.
(Doan's already 27... should we still be talking about his potential?)

How this ultimately works out is anyone's guess... but I think that when you look at the Oilers' group of young veterans- guys 26 and under who've already been in the league for years- and at the Oilers' first and second year players, and at the quality players in the system, I think there's room for optimism. The teams you've mentioned have a few quality young players having an impact at the NHL level, but they also have more of their roster entering the 30 year old age group than the Oilers. At that age it's not a given that they'll be with their present teams long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Promising returns is one thing, but winning is entirely another. I wouldn't be so annoyed if the Oilers were an expansion club like the Sens were, but if you listen to many of your compatriots here on the board, the Oilers are supposely, 'Not Rebuilding'. The losing the Oilers are going through right now are season-crippling, and Lowe has done only one thing to address this - Adam Oates, who currently is doing his best Jiri Dopita impression.
I guess it depends how you define "rebuilding". The Oilers have been trying to put a reasonably competitive team on the ice, and up until the past 18 games have been moderately successful at it. However, they've been dealing players nearing 30 to acquire players 26 and under. They're trying to walk a line- thinking for the future while still putting a product on the ice right now. Whether that's a wise plan is a different argument; whether they're doing a good job at either objective is also a different argument; but that's what they're doing.

Here's the Oilers' roster off ESPN (and I deleted Allen and Luoma and added Bergeron)

Centers
10 Shawn Horcoff 25 6-1 204 Trail, British Columbia Sep. 17, 1978
77 Adam Oates 41 5-11 190 Weston, Ontario Aug. 27, 1962
36 Jarret Stoll 21 6-1 200 Melville, Saskatchewan June 24, 1982
16 Mike York 25 5-10 185 Waterford, Michigan Jan. 3, 1978

Left Wings
28 Jason Chimera 24 6-2 204 Edmonton, Alberta May 2, 1979
15 Brad Isbister 26 6-4 220 Edmonton, Alberta May 7, 1977
18 Ethan Moreau 28 6-2 209 Huntsville, Ontario Sep. 22, 1975
94 Ryan Smyth 27 6-1 190 Banff, Alberta Feb. 21, 1976
14 Raffi Torres 22 6-0 210 Toronto, Ontario Oct. 8, 1981

Right Wings
20 Radek Dvorak 26 6-2 200 Tabor, Czechoslovakia March 9, 1977
83 Ales Hemsky 20 6-0 192 Pardubice, Czechoslovakia Aug. 13, 1983
27 Georges Laraque 27 6-3 245 Montreal, Quebec Dec. 7, 1976
34 Fernando Pisani 27 6-1 203 Edmonton, Alberta Dec. 27, 1976

Defense
2 Eric Brewer 24 6-3 220 Vernon, British Columbia April 17, 1979
23 Cory Cross 32 6-5 220 Lloydminster, Alberta Jan. 3, 1971
32 Scott Ferguson 30 6-1 195 Camrose, Alberta Jan. 6, 1973
5 Alexei Semenov 22 6-6 236 Murmansk, USSR April 10, 1981
21 Jason Smith 30 6-3 212 Calgary, Alberta Nov. 2, 1973
24 Steve Staios 30 6-1 200 Hamilton, Ontario July 28, 1973
47 Marc-Andre Bergeron 23 5-10 190 St-Louis-de-France, Quebec October 13, 1980

Goalies
1 Ty Conklin 27 6-0 180 Anchorage, Alaska March 4, 1976
35 Tommy Salo 32 6-0 182 Surahammar, Sweden Feb. 1, 1971


...and of that group, only a few-- Ryan Smyth, Jason Smith, Tommy Salo, Adam Oates, Scott Ferguson-- are likely to be gone any time soon. The rest are either 26 and under, or signed to long-term deals. Of those, only Smith and Smyth are big losses (and they might just stay anyway).

Lowe has assembled a group that he can keep together for a long time-- provided the new CBA works out. Obviously that group isn't playing particularly well right now. But a lot of these players aren't even in their prime yet. If they're kept together for a few more years, and augmented by players who are currently in the system (at least some of Woywitka, Lynch, Rita, Mikhnov, Deslauriers, Niinimaki, Pouliot, Greene will probably be in the NHL in a few years) and a few trades or signings to address weaknesses, the team should be better within a couple of years than it is right now. How much better? It's all conjecture right now-- it depends a lot on the continued development of guys like Hemsky, Semenov, Torres, Brewer... who are already having some success at the NHL level, and on the development of the guys in the system.

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