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Old
12-30-2003, 08:35 PM
  #1
RANGERDIEHARD
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Marek Zidlicky

This goes out to all of the negative posters who touted Zidlicky as the next Lidstrom. Look at his stats now; the guy has only 7 even strength points in 36 games and is a -9 so far for the Predators. I have seen him play and he is marginable at best on defense. Many people say that Poti's offense does not make up for his defensive deficiencies ; and I agree - but Zidlicky falls under that same category.

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12-30-2003, 08:51 PM
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I don't recall one poster comparing him to Lidstrom. You start right out the shoot with a loaded argument when you state stuff like that.

What many posters complained about was that Sather wouldn't give the guy a 1 way contract to see what he could do. Probably would have cost the Rags $500 - $700 thousand.

Then again, we do have Poti. He only cost us Mike York.

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12-30-2003, 09:07 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klingsor
I don't recall one poster comparing him to Lidstrom. You start right out the shoot with a loaded argument when you state stuff like that.

What many posters complained about was that Sather wouldn't give the guy a 1 way contract to see what he could do. Probably would have cost the Rags $500 - $700 thousand.

Then again, we do have Poti. He only cost us Mike York.
Yes but we did have the 2 week daily update on his scoring stats and how fantastic he was and how horrible we were to give up on him ... or not pay him ... or how horrible the trade was ... or you get the idea ...

Not to revisit the trade again, but we got Dunham for a third liner who was playing poorly for us, Kloucek (is he playing again btw? not sure if he was up with big club recently), and zidlicky ... not a bad trade IMHO for a "#1" goaltender ... regardless of how he has played the last couple of games.

Bring on the bashing ...

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12-30-2003, 09:37 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddheyman
Yes but we did have the 2 week daily update on his scoring stats and how fantastic he was and how horrible we were to give up on him ... or not pay him ... or how horrible the trade was ... or you get the idea ...

Not to revisit the trade again, but we got Dunham for a third liner who was playing poorly for us, Kloucek (is he playing again btw? not sure if he was up with big club recently), and zidlicky ... not a bad trade IMHO for a "#1" goaltender ... regardless of how he has played the last couple of games.

Bring on the bashing ...
I'm not gonna bash. Zidlicky has played all of 34 or so games in the NHL and I don't watch the Predators. It does appear he is an NHL defenseman unlike Karpa, Ulanov and Van Impe who all cost more than Zidlicky.

My problem with Sather and Zidlicky was that Sather could piss away $1.8 million on the likes of Oliwa and wouldn't fork over a lot less to see if Zidlicky could have been an NHL player 2 years ago.

I think discussing the trade is pointless as Sather was not gonna sign Zidlicky.

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12-30-2003, 09:47 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klingsor
I'm not gonna bash. Zidlicky has played all of 34 or so games in the NHL and I don't watch the Predators. It does appear he is an NHL defenseman unlike Karpa, Ulanov and Van Impe who all cost more than Zidlicky.

My problem with Sather and Zidlicky was that Sather could piss away $1.8 million on the likes of Oliwa and wouldn't fork over a lot less to see if Zidlicky could have been an NHL player 2 years ago.

I think discussing the trade is pointless as Sather was not gonna sign Zidlicky.
My thoughts exactly, why must we suffer through the useless UFA's when we could have had one of our own learning along the way (and producing more than most).

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12-31-2003, 11:27 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klingsor
I don't recall one poster comparing him to Lidstrom. You start right out the shoot with a loaded argument when you state stuff like that.

What many posters complained about was that Sather wouldn't give the guy a 1 way contract to see what he could do. Probably would have cost the Rags $500 - $700 thousand.

Then again, we do have Poti. He only cost us Mike York.
Comparing him to Lidstrom was an exageration; like "dd" stated all we saw on these boards was a game to game update on how well Zidlicky was doing when all it was IMO was an over reaction by Ranger fans.

I'm not bashing Zidlicky because your right he has only played 34 games. But why be impressed and make assumptions when he played 15 games?

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12-31-2003, 11:33 AM
  #7
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This is actually one of the few trades Sather's made that actually worked out for both teams. New York got the goaltender to fill in for the injured Richter, and Nashville got a solid checking forward in Rem Murray, a decent blueline presence in Zidlicky, and they took a calcluated risk on Tomas Kloucek which unfortunately didn't pan out. But all in all I don't think anyone should be upset by this trade. There are FAR worse transactions Slats has made that deserve the fans' ire.

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12-31-2003, 11:50 AM
  #8
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I was going to post the same thing. Its amazing that no one is posting about how it was such a bad trade anymore since Zidlicky isnt playing so hot anymore.

I said this exact thing would happen back during all of the hoopla and i got bashed by the likes of True Blue and Brooklyn Ranger. Who looks stupid now?

How has Rico Fata done lately? Havent heard anything about him in awhile.

How about Manny Malholtra? Pavel Brendl? Filip Novak? Rem Murray? Kim Johnsson?


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12-31-2003, 12:04 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGERDIEHARD
Comparing him to Lidstrom was an exageration; like "dd" stated all we saw on these boards was a game to game update on how well Zidlicky was doing when all it was IMO was an over reaction by Ranger fans.

I'm not bashing Zidlicky because your right he has only played 34 games. But why be impressed and make assumptions when he played 15 games?
Yeah, I realized you were just using hyperbole. I over-reacted a tad.

It just hit a nerve regarding Sather's failure not to get the guy signed 2 years ago because Sather was trying to save some chump change. Riz has been telling us for over 2 years that Zidlicky was not only an excelleny prospect but could step into the NHL immediately.

When you consider the amount of money Sather squandered on marginal d-men like Ulanov, Karpa and Van Impe and the risk he took signing Berard (not that I find fault with that), his treatment of Zidlicky was inexcusable.

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12-31-2003, 12:13 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klingsor
Yeah, I realized you were just using hyperbole. I over-reacted a tad.

It just hit a nerve regarding Sather's failure not to get the guy signed 2 years ago because Sather was trying to save some chump change. Riz has been telling us for over 2 years that Zidlicky was not only an excelleny prospect but could step into the NHL immediately.

When you consider the amount of money Sather squandered on marginal d-men like Ulanov, Karpa and Van Impe and the risk he took signing Berard (not that I find fault with that), his treatment of Zidlicky was inexcusable.

Can't argue with that.

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12-31-2003, 01:07 PM
  #11
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I can.

When the Rangers signed Ulanov and Karpa it wasnt like Sather signed some bum of the street. Ulanov was expected to be a solid 4-5 defenseman and Karpa was supposed to be a 6th defenseman with a mean streak.

Ulanov's stats before coming to New York:
67 GP 3 G 20 A 23 P +15 90 PIM

Not that bad. Certainly not any type of play that would throw up red flags. In fact, other teams were interested in Ulanov as well if i am not mistaken.

Karpa's stats before coming to New York:
80 GP 4 G 6 A 10 P -19 159 PIM

The +/- raises an eyebrow, but he was playing on a bad Carolina team. His job was to be a 6th defenseman.


Both failed miserably, but dont act like everyone knew they would play horrible when they were signed.

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12-31-2003, 01:18 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnaby63
I was going to post the same thing. Its amazing that no one is posting about how it was such a bad trade anymore since Zidlicky isnt playing so hot anymore.

I said this exact thing would happen back during all of the hoopla and i got bashed by the likes of True Blue and Brooklyn Ranger. Who looks stupid now?
Sorry, if you are referring to me, I do not feel the slightest bit stupid. I'm pretty sure neither does Brook.
First of all, I never said that it was a horrible trade. All I said, and I've said it from the beginning, is that I thought that Jackass overpaid. And I still do. At the time of the trade, one had no crystal ball. Everyone hated to loose Kloucek. I thought that he was going to be a cornerstone defenseman. I still think he may. But anyway, the Rangers needed a starting goalie and Sather went out and got one. However, I think that he paid too steep of a price.

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12-31-2003, 01:22 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Sorry, if you are referring to me, I do not feel the slightest bit stupid. I'm pretty sure neither does Brook.
First of all, I never said that it was a horrible trade. All I said, and I've said it from the beginning, is that I thought that Jackass overpaid. And I still do. At the time of the trade, one had no crystal ball. Everyone hated to loose Kloucek. I thought that he was going to be a cornerstone defenseman. I still think he may. But anyway, the Rangers needed a starting goalie and Sather went out and got one. However, I think that he paid too steep of a price.
Oh, then it wasnt you. My bad.

I can at least understand that point where you think Sather overpaid but at least you also admit we needed a goalie.

anyway, Happy New Year and LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!

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12-31-2003, 01:39 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnaby63
I can.

When the Rangers signed Ulanov and Karpa it wasnt like Sather signed some bum of the street. Ulanov was expected to be a solid 4-5 defenseman and Karpa was supposed to be a 6th defenseman with a mean streak.

Ulanov's stats before coming to New York:
67 GP 3 G 20 A 23 P +15 90 PIM

Not that bad. Certainly not any type of play that would throw up red flags. In fact, other teams were interested in Ulanov as well if i am not mistaken.

Karpa's stats before coming to New York:
80 GP 4 G 6 A 10 P -19 159 PIM

The +/- raises an eyebrow, but he was playing on a bad Carolina team. His job was to be a 6th defenseman.


Both failed miserably, but dont act like everyone knew they would play horrible when they were signed.
Ulanov - $6 million over three years
Karpa - $1.75 million per year for 2 or 3 years

If you're gonna spend that type of money, than you can afford to spend $500 to $700 thousand for one year to see what Zidlicky has to offer.

Obviously, I have been unclear in making my point or you just don't agree.

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12-31-2003, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnaby63
Oh, then it wasnt you. My bad.

I can at least understand that point where you think Sather overpaid but at least you also admit we needed a goalie.

anyway, Happy New Year and LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!
You know dude, I'm getting tired of being your muse. I have been quite the defender of Dunham--whom, by the way, I liked when he was the backup in Jersey.

As for your other post: "I was going to post the same thing. Its amazing that no one is posting about how it was such a bad trade anymore since Zidlicky isnt playing so hot anymore.

I said this exact thing would happen back during all of the hoopla and i got bashed by the likes of True Blue and Brooklyn Ranger. Who looks stupid now?"

As I said before--and as others have pointed out repeatedly when this issue has come up--all Zidlicky wanted was a one-way contract. He's currently signed for $500,000--that's the most it would have taken to bring him over here. I strongly advocated doing just that--signing him to a one-way contract and finding out for once and just what all the fuss was about.

If I "look stupid" because I wanted to see a young player play, then so be it. Because I certainly didn't enjoy watching players like Quintal, Ulanov, Karpa and Lefebvre (not to mention Malakhov) crap up the joint while they were here. Excuse me for wanting to try something different. God forbid we be afraid of change because we might fail! Building a 'team" the other way--using "proven playoff performers" has worked so well.

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12-31-2003, 02:44 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klingsor
Ulanov - $6 million over three years
Karpa - $1.75 million per year for 2 or 3 years

If you're gonna spend that type of money, than you can afford to spend $500 to $700 thousand for one year to see what Zidlicky has to offer.

Obviously, I have been unclear in making my point or you just don't agree.
2 million per for a guy that scored 20+ points and played physical? I dont think that was bad at all.

Now 1.75 million for Karpa is a little much, i wouldve given him the most 1.1 million per.

I understand your point with Zidlicky, but i just got tired of people saying we shouldve brought over Marek instead of Ulanov and Karpa. My point was they werent **** players before they got here.

BR, you seem to forgot that you bashed me for saying the trade was good for the rangers. You, along with others, said we overpaid, we are trading youth once again for a average goalie and when i said dunham isnt really that bad and all we gave up was rem murray(since zidlicky was unproven) i got called a sather-lover and idiotic for actually thinking sather did something good.

I just found it ironic that there arent any daily updates and bashings on sather for that trade anymore.

Like i said at the time, 15 games dont make a season.


But it is also funny how Poti gets bashed for not playing physical and that we have too manny offensive-defenseman but when we trade a guy that never uses the body reguarly and is an offensive-defenseman somehow Sather wasnt supposed to trade him?

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01-01-2004, 03:13 AM
  #17
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klingsor...

I would've loved to have seen Zidlicky get a shot in a Rangers uniform, but, I think it would not be a great precedent for a GM to sign a guy to a two-way contract when he's never played in North America. What if he did come here, looked as though he had to adjust a bit, and was sent to Hartford making $750K in his first season? I think that's a bit different than signing a Krapa, who's played in the NHL for much of his career but wasn't a great NHLer, but has played at that level.

I'm not too ecstatic at the money that's been squandered over the years by Sather, but just because he pays $500K extra for Holik, doesn't mean I can stand by him giving into a sixth round draft choice in Finland's demands. There needs to be some sort of control maintained.

Would have been interesting, though...what would Sather have done if Zidlicky did come to N.A. and wasn't traded? He probably would've been too good for the AHL. There's no way he'd get on roster ahead of Leetch, Mironov, Malakhov, Kaspar and deVries...would Poti've been gone?

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01-01-2004, 07:30 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
I would've loved to have seen Zidlicky get a shot in a Rangers uniform, but, I think it would not be a great precedent for a GM to sign a guy to a two-way contract when he's never played in North America. What if he did come here, looked as though he had to adjust a bit, and was sent to Hartford making $750K in his first season? I think that's a bit different than signing a Krapa, who's played in the NHL for much of his career but wasn't a great NHLer, but has played at that level.

I'm not too ecstatic at the money that's been squandered over the years by Sather, but just because he pays $500K extra for Holik, doesn't mean I can stand by him giving into a sixth round draft choice in Finland's demands. There needs to be some sort of control maintained.

Would have been interesting, though...what would Sather have done if Zidlicky did come to N.A. and wasn't traded? He probably would've been too good for the AHL. There's no way he'd get on roster ahead of Leetch, Mironov, Malakhov, Kaspar and deVries...would Poti've been gone?
I don't agree. He signed for only $500k with Nashville. That's not unreasonable and there was no reason to not take a chance on him. He was the best d-man in Finland for years.

As for what would happen if he were here, if we signed him before last season, we would have likely either not signed de Vries or not resigned Mironov. We might have even not traded for Mironov and still signed de Vries. But I don't think it would affect Poti much.

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01-01-2004, 09:31 AM
  #19
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One thing that bothered me, Kodiak...

is that he was taken in the sixth round, despite being one of the better defensemen in Finland, and being a young vet. Why didn't a team, Thrashers, Columbus, etc., one that's short on cash and willing to play young guys, take a chance on this guy? Would they too have given him that one-way, $500K contract at the point in which Zidlicky 'demanded' it?

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01-01-2004, 09:49 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
is that he was taken in the sixth round, despite being one of the better defensemen in Finland, and being a young vet. Why didn't a team, Thrashers, Columbus, etc., one that's short on cash and willing to play young guys, take a chance on this guy? Would they too have given him that one-way, $500K contract at the point in which Zidlicky 'demanded' it?
Unlikely, as those teams have limited budgets and ARE fiscally responsible.

$500 G's ain't gonna break the Rags.

As for setting a precendent. A 24 year old who has been successful in the top leagues in The Czech Republic and Finland is quite different from a 17 or 18 year old 6th rounder whose only experience is junior hockey or NCAA hockey.

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01-01-2004, 09:59 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
is that he was taken in the sixth round, despite being one of the better defensemen in Finland, and being a young vet. Why didn't a team, Thrashers, Columbus, etc., one that's short on cash and willing to play young guys, take a chance on this guy? Would they too have given him that one-way, $500K contract at the point in which Zidlicky 'demanded' it?
What you seem to be missing is that lots of teams give one-way contracts to older, more established European players. Even Lou has. I'm not quite sure if he gave one to Rafalski his first year, but I do know he gave a player named Andreas Salomonsson one (drafted in the 5th round) a couple of years ago. Everyone in Sweden thought he crazy, but that's what it took to get Salononsson over here.

Also, Zidlicky didn't just break out suddenly and become a dominant player in Finland last season. He was a mainstay of his Finnish team from the time Rafalski was signed by the Devils. Nashville knew enough about him to want to take him from the Rangers and give him the one way contract he wanted. In any case, given the number of defensemen who played for the Rangers last season, chances are Zidlicky would have had a great opportunity to show the Rangers and the NHL what he could do over here. If nothing else it would have been a great way for Sather to showcase some young talent.


Last edited by Brooklyn Ranger: 01-01-2004 at 10:08 AM.
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01-01-2004, 10:28 AM
  #22
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I understand both...

klingsor and Brooklyn. My point is, to klingsor, that just because the Rangers' bank won't be broke at $500K, doesn't make the signing right. Of course there's inconsistencies with the Rangers' fiscal responsibility, but I don't agree with a lot of the money that the Rangers throw around. Giving Zdlicky that contract potentially may've weakened his bargaining position with future prospects coming out of Europe. Sather hasn't exactly overpaid anybody on this team that's under 30 (i.e., non-UFAs, and Messier), and I think he'll continue to show half-assed fiscal responsibility.

And to Brooklyn...I understand that Marek didn't just pop onto the circuit. I did wonder why, if this kid basically looked NHL-ready at draft time, was under 25, would be cheap, that a 'younger' team wouldn't take a flyer on this guy before the 6th round. What was the buzz that kept him on the board so long draft day?

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01-01-2004, 10:37 AM
  #23
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Fletch, if a European is going to make signficantly more money staying in Europe than he would if the Rangers sent him to Hartford on a 2-way, it's going to be very hard to sign him no matter what round he was drafted in.

We've discussed this before and not much has changed.

I'm still right and you're still wrong.

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01-01-2004, 10:40 AM
  #24
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Yeah, I remember all that...

hopefully my opinion hasn't changed yet. Don't want you to think I'm any more a flake than I really am.

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01-01-2004, 11:00 AM
  #25
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The back pedaling here is hysterical. For about a month we had daily Zidlicky threads and eventually we got a sticky that was many pages long. It was all about how great Marek was and how stupid the Rangers were for making this trade. I must have typed a dozen posts arguing with people about how you have to give something to get something. More then a few people here just went on and on like Zidlicky was the second coming of Brian Leetch or Bobby Orr. Now their arguments are changing to "We just meant that Sather was foolish for not giving him the little extra money to see if he could play." I know there were some who said that like Klingsor but that number is VERY few.

I personally don't see the fault in giving up a guy who is a puck moving d-man who is probably a #5 defensemn on a good team. Do we need another puck moving d-man? I think this is one of the few great moves Sather has made. I'm a firm believer of building from the goal on out and the first step to that is a goalie. If you can get a solid #1 goalie for a 3rd-4th line player and a young puck moving d-man who probably tops out as a #5 d-man then you do it any day of the week. I think Sather did well because he held guys like Tyutin and his early picks. I firmly belive this was a great move.

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