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World Juniors Canada... bleah

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Old
12-28-2003, 02:55 PM
  #1
G Man 77
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World Juniors Canada... bleah

This year's edition is the perfect model for why hockey is dying... BORING as hell.

It's all about size, system, cycling, wearing the opposition down.

ZERO offense off the rush, expect for Crosby, the only interesting player to watch on the whole team offensively.
No pretty passing plays either, the Swiss provided a better offensive show for god sakes with some good rushes and some nice passing plays... hell I saw some CREATIVENESS there.

In past years I've always looked forward to this WJHC because the games were so much more creative, exciting, talent filled.
But this year they've left a lot of top scorers at home, so they could play this boring yet effective hockey instead.

They've ruined my holidays.. instead of being saved from Habs-Carolina type games I now have a double dose.
Bleah.

I wish Canada would be allowed to send a 2nd team with the the actually best players instead of the biggest lineup they could find... they might not win it all but they'd be a hell of a lot more exciting to watch.

Corey Locke wasn't even invited to camp, as a few other top scorers around the leagues... not even invited to camp.

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12-28-2003, 03:06 PM
  #2
Blackshad
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The game was 5 time more exiting than an habs game.

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12-28-2003, 03:46 PM
  #3
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I thought the game against the Finns was pretty sad as well. I always looked forward to WJC to see some creative offensive guys go to work, instead Canada's whole offensive game is centred around the cycle. It's depressing to hear Maguire praise Canada for good play down low, because it's boring as hell and not the way the game was meant to be played.

It is, unfortunately, effective and the best way to win games nowadays. It seems that junior is taking the way of the NHL and kids are now being taught this totally uncreative, boring style of hockey. Scoring in the WHL is way down this year as a result.

So much for hope for the future.

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12-28-2003, 04:41 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackshad
The game was 5 time more exiting than an habs game.
Mostly because there's no tommorrow at the WJC they play deseperate hockey . A playoff Habs game is the summum .

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12-28-2003, 05:12 PM
  #5
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Man, I can't believe people are ragging on the WJC now. I thought the games were entertaining and I have always loved watching this tournament, even more so than the Stanley Cup playoffs. When the games become more meaningful rather than games against Ukraine and Switzerland people will forget what they said before. I can't wait for the game against the Czech's.

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12-28-2003, 05:33 PM
  #6
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the best line is the line that works really hard all the time and is fun to watch and is my favorite line, it is the line of stewart-richards-someone i forgot

now thats a high energy line!

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12-28-2003, 05:33 PM
  #7
Kirk Muller
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Originally Posted by theo6060
Man, I can't believe people are ragging on the WJC now. I thought the games were entertaining and I have always loved watching this tournament, even more so than the Stanley Cup playoffs. When the games become more meaningful rather than games against Ukraine and Switzerland people will forget what they said before. I can't wait for the game against the Czech's.

I pretty much agree. The funny thing is if Canada just went out and played a run and gun style and lost the games 7-5 or whatever and didn't win a medal, the same people moaning about boring hockey would say how Canada isn't a hockey power anymore, and "what is wrong with our development system?" People seem to equivalate (is that a word?) scoring with exciting and entertaining hockey, which is the most ridiculous thing. Scoring is usually peoples first response when saying hockey is boring.

I don't know, am I the only one who likes watching a team physically punish the opponent along the boards, and in the corners, watch some big hits and add in some scoring chances, and pretty goals? The WJ have always brought that imo.

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Old
12-28-2003, 06:23 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Nash13
I pretty much agree. The funny thing is if Canada just went out and played a run and gun style and lost the games 7-5 or whatever and didn't win a medal, the same people moaning about boring hockey would say how Canada isn't a hockey power anymore, and "what is wrong with our development system?" People seem to equivalate (is that a word?) scoring with exciting and entertaining hockey, which is the most ridiculous thing. Scoring is usually peoples first response when saying hockey is boring.

I don't know, am I the only one who likes watching a team physically punish the opponent along the boards, and in the corners, watch some big hits and add in some scoring chances, and pretty goals? The WJ have always brought that imo.
Hey I love this tournament as much as the next guy and think 1-0 games can be more exciting than 7-6 games.

But I don't think the cycle is exciting or entertaining hockey. It is a neccessity at times during a game and can be an effective tool. But as G Man stated, we're seeing no offence off the rush. Everything is geared towards setting up the cycle. I can remember when a two on two meant an opportunity to try a deke or a criss cross, but now they don't even try, they just dump it into the corner and everyone goes into robot mode.

It used to be that this style of play was confined to the NHL, but it's just sad to see it progress to junior, especially at the WJC.

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Old
12-28-2003, 09:59 PM
  #9
G Man 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
People seem to equivalate (is that a word?) scoring with exciting and entertaining hockey, which is the most ridiculous thing. Scoring is usually peoples first response when saying hockey is boring.

I don't know, am I the only one who likes watching a team physically punish the opponent along the boards, and in the corners, watch some big hits and add in some scoring chances, and pretty goals? The WJ have always brought that imo.
Last year's club and most of those in years past were just as physical (aka Tootoo for example)... but still the team also had tons of speed on the rush, very creative and exciting offensively.

This bunch just cycle until their shift is over, and score when it's time to go to the bench for a change... all ugly goalmouth scrambles, except for a few incoming D men and of course Sydney "thank god for him" Crosby who'll show us glimpses of good hockey skills here and there.

This team was built for size only, that's why a lot of the top scorers weren't even invited to camp... I can live with them being cut during camp, but not even being invited is just a joke.

Sorry but the Swiss entertained me more in the little time they actually had the puck in this game than Canada did in the whole game... just mind-numbingly boring.

It's the first year that the WJHC has disappointed me in this way, I hope this is just bump in the road and not a sign of things to come. Now that I say that I'm just remembering this is a young group and most will be returning next year... grrreat.
Thank god Crosby will make it worth watching on his own.

And no, good hockey is not all about high scoring games... but it sure has nothing to do with cycling for 60 minutes.

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Old
12-28-2003, 11:25 PM
  #10
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my favorite C line: Getzlaf-Carter-BURNS
favorite player on this line : BURNS
favorite player on the team (too bad that he plays on the 3rd line ) : CROSBY

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Old
12-29-2003, 04:05 AM
  #11
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Canada's style has mostly been a hard-working, tenacious one. Not always finesse around the nets.

These days, the best individual players, technically speaking, are europeans. Crosby will be the great exception. And we all know why.

If Canada wins with this style, you'll hear people jump on the bandwagon; if they lose (which they will, unless Fleury goals like a maniac), others will be first in line to criticize.

You can't have it both ways; either you like the canadian style of hockey; either you don't.

Personnally, I do think our style is better suited for longhaul series.

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Old
12-29-2003, 07:31 AM
  #12
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Stewart is a very good player but he seem.. i dont know the word in english..
VANTARD PIS TROP SUR DE LUI.
Did you see his reaction on the goals he made. (he just scored one today against ukraine).

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12-29-2003, 07:34 AM
  #13
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Was Stewart the one Vanbiesbrouk called ******?

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Old
12-29-2003, 07:57 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackshad
Stewart is a very good player but he seem.. i dont know the word in english..
VANTARD PIS TROP SUR DE LUI.
Did you see his reaction on the goals he made. (he just scored one today against ukraine).
8-0 for Canada agains Ukraine in the 2nd period

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Old
12-29-2003, 08:21 AM
  #15
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Yeah, I noticed that too Blackshad, Stewart seems cocky as hell. Still he didn't create much against such a weak team, which is not good (he got a goal but after that..). He really looks arrogant.

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12-29-2003, 08:31 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G Man 77
This year's edition is the perfect model for why hockey is dying... BORING as hell.

It's all about size, system, cycling, wearing the opposition down.

ZERO offense off the rush, expect for Crosby, the only interesting player to watch on the whole team offensively.
No pretty passing plays either, the Swiss provided a better offensive show for god sakes with some good rushes and some nice passing plays... hell I saw some CREATIVENESS there.

In past years I've always looked forward to this WJHC because the games were so much more creative, exciting, talent filled.
But this year they've left a lot of top scorers at home, so they could play this boring yet effective hockey instead.

They've ruined my holidays.. instead of being saved from Habs-Carolina type games I now have a double dose.
Bleah.

I wish Canada would be allowed to send a 2nd team with the the actually best players instead of the biggest lineup they could find... they might not win it all but they'd be a hell of a lot more exciting to watch.
The system of defensive play adopted per many teams of the NHL is the base of several teams of the AHL and junior teams.

The reason why this system exist is the fact that there are too many teams in the NHL (National Holding League). If this league had only 20 teams, each team would have more skilful players... the system, in this case, is not so important for win a game. The AHL and the junior teams must have a little less team for have more skilled player in each team.

(Sorry for my poor english)

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12-29-2003, 08:38 AM
  #17
Slats432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsaku
Was Stewart the one Vanbiesbrouk called ******?
Trevor Daley
http://www.torontosun.com/Slam030311/chl_jvb-cp.html

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Old
12-29-2003, 08:55 AM
  #18
Habsaku
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Originally Posted by slats432

Ah ok, for some reason I imagined it was Stewart.

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Old
12-29-2003, 12:22 PM
  #19
Mike8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G Man 77
Last year's club and most of those in years past were just as physical (aka Tootoo for example)... but still the team also had tons of speed on the rush, very creative and exciting offensively.

This bunch just cycle until their shift is over, and score when it's time to go to the bench for a change... all ugly goalmouth scrambles, except for a few incoming D men and of course Sydney "thank god for him" Crosby who'll show us glimpses of good hockey skills here and there.

This team was built for size only, that's why a lot of the top scorers weren't even invited to camp... I can live with them being cut during camp, but not even being invited is just a joke.
I think you're noticing that Canada hasn't faced adequate competition yet more than anything else. The best defense is keeping the puck deep in the offensive zone, and Canada's been able to dominate all their opposition down low. So of course they'll keep it there. Even Crosby's line has kept it deep and cycled for the most part.

Once Canada faces adequate competition (see: Czechs, Russians, USA), there will be more excitement and end to end hockey. This is a particularly weak Finnish team that Canada faced, the Swiss are a growing hockey nation but still not all that strong, and of course the Ukraine. The lopsided, grinding games happen every year against weaker teams, we're just not accustomed to the first three games all being against weak competition.

It's true that this Canadian team is bigger than usual and able to dominate along the boards much better than in the past, but I think they've got a load of talent and skating ability. They're more than capable of playing good transition hockey, there just hasn't been a need yet. Also keep in mind that since this is a younger Canadian team, and bigger than usual, they've got far more raw talent. Last year's team was smaller, older and had more polished talent (Wellwood, Roy, Tootoo, Eminger, Colaiacovo, Lupul, Bouchard, etc.)

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Old
12-29-2003, 12:41 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by deandebean
These days, the best individual players, technically speaking, are europeans. Crosby will be the great exception. And we all know why.
I don't understand this mentality at all. Canada produces a lot of well-rounded players, and the bulk of the top defensemen, goalies and checking line forwards are Canadian, but there's also a huge amount of top line talent that Canada produces; more than any other country still.

Run down the list of talent: Lemieux, Heatley, Kariya, Sakic, Thornton, Bertuzzi, Glen Murray, Iginla, Lecavalier, Richards, etc etc.

You can run down the list of offensive talents under 23 years old and Canada will still have an impressive list. If anything, I'm concerned with some countries (Slovakia, Finland, Sweden) not keeping up with Canada, Russia, Czechs and USA in producing offensive talent. Those four are turning into the new 'big four' as far as I'm concerned.

Sweden has some excellent top talents right now (Naslund, Forsberg, Alfredsson, Sundin), but after that there isn't much depth, and certainly not much in terms of young players coming up through the system. Finland has little else other than Pitkanen, a very 'Canadian-styled' player Ruutu, and Lehtonen to replace the current top level crop (which didn't produce a top 25 scorer last season).

Now looking at Russia, there was not a top 10 scorer in the NHL last year from Russia. There were three top 25 scorers from Russia (Mogilny, Fedorov, Kovalev).

Compare that to Canada with 5 scorers in the top ten, more than any other country; 9 in the top 25, and 11 in the top 28.

Czechs had 3 players in the top 25 scorers.

So how exactly are the best 'individual' players European? I won't buy any argument that Europeans are superior in terms of finesse. Not while Canada holds talent like Lemieux, Sakic, Allison, Thornton, Lecavalier, Bertuzzi, Heatley, Iginla, Kariya; some of the purest talent in the world.

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Old
12-29-2003, 02:04 PM
  #21
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beside that , somone know if André Savard is there for scouting ?

i am not sure about his implication for the scouting . I hope is there because it would be sad to have this good talent analyst without using his abilities to find good prospects

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12-29-2003, 11:14 PM
  #22
G Man 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
I think you're noticing that Canada hasn't faced adequate competition yet more than anything else. The best defense is keeping the puck deep in the offensive zone, and Canada's been able to dominate all their opposition down low. So of course they'll keep it there. Even Crosby's line has kept it deep and cycled for the most part.
While true that some of it is because of weak opposition, in years prior even against weaker teams Canada created much more on the rush... using speed & and nice passing.

This bunch was built for, and primarily relies on size.

Quote:
Once Canada faces adequate competition (see: Czechs, Russians, USA), there will be more excitement and end to end hockey. This is a particularly weak Finnish team that Canada faced, the Swiss are a growing hockey nation but still not all that strong, and of course the Ukraine. The lopsided, grinding games happen every year against weaker teams, we're just not accustomed to the first three games all being against weak competition.
I agree the games will get more interesting, because they can't get any less interesting. Seriously though, because it's always more interesting when the outcome is actually in doubt.

But I don't think Canada will suddenly start creating primarily off the rush all of a sudden just because the competition is better... I look forward to a heavy dose of the boring cycle throughout the tourney.

Quote:
It's true that this Canadian team is bigger than usual and able to dominate along the boards much better than in the past, but I think they've got a load of talent and skating ability. They're more than capable of playing good transition hockey, there just hasn't been a need yet. Also keep in mind that since this is a younger Canadian team, and bigger than usual, they've got far more raw talent. Last year's team was smaller, older and had more polished talent (Wellwood, Roy, Tootoo, Eminger, Colaiacovo, Lupul, Bouchard, etc.)
I think you've hit the nail on the head, it's not a pretty hockey because this team is not only bigger and rely more on that... but because they are younger and so more raw offensively.

Hence the show suffers a little, offensive show that is.

Even now that I understand what is bugging me about this team, it won't make it bug me any less though. But that's my problem I guess.

I thrive on the offensive show these guys put on every year, because you don't see such a collection of talent on most NHL teams... add the pride of playing for your country, and the aggresive style that Canada always brings to the table and it's usually such a blast.
We always have solid goaltending too, that helps.

And wasn't last year's tounry in Canada?... the crowds are so much more into it here than in Europe where they play in front of empty seats, that takes out a lot of the excitement too.

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Old
12-30-2003, 06:30 AM
  #23
deandebean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lok
The system of defensive play adopted per many teams of the NHL is the base of several teams of the AHL and junior teams.

The reason why this system exist is the fact that there are too many teams in the NHL (National Holding League). If this league had only 20 teams, each team would have more skilful players... the system, in this case, is not so important for win a game. The AHL and the junior teams must have a little less team for have more skilled player in each team.

(Sorry for my poor english)

That statement is a fallacy. The argument about the number of teams is brought up by people nostalgic about the 70's era mostly. Well, even during that period, the complaints about the boring hockey were numerous and a large number of nostalgics used to ask for a return to an original 6 format.

Remember that before the turn of the 80's there we no europeans in the league. If there are 30 p.cent more teams in the league now, europeans compose 30 p. cent of all of them. Thus, the equation is rendered obsolete.

It is not the quality of players (today's hockey player is MUCH more talented that he used to be; just watch an old game on ESPN classic to figure that one out). The problem is that the coaching has gone up a notch. In the 70's (even more so before that), the coaching was done during a game; today, the bulk of the job is done before and after games. The systems played, while basically the same as before, have become much more precise and subtle.

If you want to ante up the quality of the play, all you need to do is BAN any zone coverage system (call a minor penalty to a team that applies it) and ref the game like is should be.

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Old
12-30-2003, 06:31 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
I don't understand this mentality at all. Canada produces a lot of well-rounded players, and the bulk of the top defensemen, goalies and checking line forwards are Canadian, but there's also a huge amount of top line talent that Canada produces; more than any other country still.

Run down the list of talent: Lemieux, Heatley, Kariya, Sakic, Thornton, Bertuzzi, Glen Murray, Iginla, Lecavalier, Richards, etc etc.

You can run down the list of offensive talents under 23 years old and Canada will still have an impressive list. If anything, I'm concerned with some countries (Slovakia, Finland, Sweden) not keeping up with Canada, Russia, Czechs and USA in producing offensive talent. Those four are turning into the new 'big four' as far as I'm concerned.

Sweden has some excellent top talents right now (Naslund, Forsberg, Alfredsson, Sundin), but after that there isn't much depth, and certainly not much in terms of young players coming up through the system. Finland has little else other than Pitkanen, a very 'Canadian-styled' player Ruutu, and Lehtonen to replace the current top level crop (which didn't produce a top 25 scorer last season).

Now looking at Russia, there was not a top 10 scorer in the NHL last year from Russia. There were three top 25 scorers from Russia (Mogilny, Fedorov, Kovalev).

Compare that to Canada with 5 scorers in the top ten, more than any other country; 9 in the top 25, and 11 in the top 28.

Czechs had 3 players in the top 25 scorers.

So how exactly are the best 'individual' players European? I won't buy any argument that Europeans are superior in terms of finesse. Not while Canada holds talent like Lemieux, Sakic, Allison, Thornton, Lecavalier, Bertuzzi, Heatley, Iginla, Kariya; some of the purest talent in the world.

60 p. cent of the top 20 point getters in the NHL are euros. Take a look.

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12-30-2003, 06:33 AM
  #25
deandebean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
60 p. cent of the top 20 point getters in the NHL are euros. Take a look.

And, I might add, while they comprise only 35 p. cent or so of all the players in the NHL right now.

Easy to figure out, I think.

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