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07-13-2007, 06:15 PM
  #51
Sojourn
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Kite, you're making really ridiculous statements, and you seem to have trouble realizing it.

You don't put one of your best goal-scoring prospects on the 4th line, with 4th line minutes. That is not helpful to their career. Do you play hockey? Do you understand the difference between playing 5 minutes a game, and playing 15 minutes? I can assure you, it makes a big difference on how you develop. It was better for the Ducks, and for Bobby Ryan, that he remained in Owen Sound, where he would get the minutes he needed to develop properly. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

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07-13-2007, 06:20 PM
  #52
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Citizensaint is starting to use proper grammar, yay!
Yea one day I went on and Couldn't read what I wrote I apologyize to you if you could not.

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07-13-2007, 06:21 PM
  #53
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Then why did his scoring remain the same if he was developing properlty? Seems like it should have improved.

You're clearly wrong.

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07-13-2007, 06:25 PM
  #54
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Because he didn't have a great first half. A lot of people suspect it was a problem of motivation. He probably wasn't happy being in Owen another season.

If I'm so wrong, why don't you have something better to argue? You seem to be of the opinion that Bobby Ryan should have been on Anaheim's 4th line, and would have been if he had been good.

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07-13-2007, 06:31 PM
  #55
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Well if he didn't really care about being in Owen Sound, why not have him on the 4th line in Anaheim? He would have at least gotten some pro experience, no?

The reality is, he probably wasn't good enough for the Ducks 4th line.

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07-13-2007, 06:34 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
Well if he didn't really care about being in Owen Sound, why not have him on the 4th line in Anaheim? He would have at least gotten some pro experience, no?

The reality is, he probably wasn't good enough for the Ducks 4th line.
You've never seen him play, have you? It's far from reality. His second half was much better in Owen Sound, and 15 minutes of ice time is 15 minutes of ice time. Pro experience isn't going to help him much if he's not getting enough ice time to develop properly.

Are you new to this hockey thing?

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07-13-2007, 06:41 PM
  #57
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Ryan wouldn't have even gotten fifteen minutes of ice time per game. And he carries an $850k cap hit, which would be ridiculous for a fourth-line player.

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07-13-2007, 06:45 PM
  #58
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Ryan wouldn't have even gotten fifteen minutes of ice time per game. And he carries an $850k cap hit, which would be ridiculous for a fourth-line player.
Yes, but KiteKite is apparently of the opinion that 5 minutes at the pro level is better for development than 15-20 minutes at the OHL level.

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07-13-2007, 06:48 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
Well if he didn't really care about being in Owen Sound, why not have him on the 4th line in Anaheim? He would have at least gotten some pro experience, no?

The reality is, he probably wasn't good enough for the Ducks 4th line.
You have to stop saying that Ryan sucks when you haven't even seen him play. You can't say he is not good enough just because the Ducks didn't call him up to play in the 4th line for a couple of minutes during the playoffs.

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07-13-2007, 06:51 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by iLau View Post
You have to stop saying that Ryan sucks when you haven't even seen him play. You can't say he is not good enough just because the Ducks didn't call him up to play in the 4th line for a couple of minutes during the playoffs.

Well does he suck or is he better than the draft pick ahead of him or in between.

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07-13-2007, 07:13 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
Then why did his scoring remain the same if he was developing properlty? Seems like it should have improved.

You're clearly wrong.
You could ask Portland fans, who said that Ryan looked much better last season than the previous season. He had improved his skating and his strength. Significantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
Well if he didn't really care about being in Owen Sound, why not have him on the 4th line in Anaheim? He would have at least gotten some pro experience, no?

The reality is, he probably wasn't good enough for the Ducks 4th line.

He probably wasn't good enough for our 4th line. Which would be why our team is a Stanley Cup winning team and yours isn't.

So far, yes Jack Johnson does look better than Ryan. But not all prospects progress at the same rate. Just because he's more NHL ready doesn't mean he'll always be better.

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07-13-2007, 07:54 PM
  #62
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You could ask Portland fans, who said that Ryan looked much better last season than the previous season. He had improved his skating and his strHe probably wasn't good enough for our 4th line. Which would be why our team is a Stanley Cup winning team and yours isn't.
Oh please. You say that like your 4th line was something special. Shannon-Moen-fighter? I know Burkie loves his fighters, but its sad that Ryan wasn't even good enough to get a spot over Shannon or Moen.

And why do you guys keep saying spending another year in the O was good for him? He didn't improve during the prime development age of 19. Thats bad.

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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Yes, but KiteKite is apparently of the opinion that 5 minutes at the pro level is better for development than 15-20 minutes at the OHL level.
Well since he didn't improve with those 15-20 minutes, may be 5 minutes in the NHL would have been better?

Geez, why is this such a big argument? It's not like we're talking theoreticals here. That fourth year in the OHL did him no good, and the stats pretty much prove it.

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07-13-2007, 08:01 PM
  #63
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I remember seeing the Jack Johnson get creamed. He was sitting on the ground. Waiting to get up. Wishing he had a better team.

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07-13-2007, 08:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
Oh please. You say that like your 4th line was something special. Shannon-Moen-fighter? I know Burkie loves his fighters, but its sad that Ryan wasn't even good enough to get a spot over Shannon or Moen.

And why do you guys keep saying spending another year in the O was good for him? He didn't improve during the prime development age of 19. Thats bad.
That wasn't our 4th line. Our 4th line anchor was Marchant, and May/Thornton/Shannon/Parros. All except Shannon are better than Ryan at their assigned roles of playing a simple, hard hitting, forechecking game. Why waste a year of development, RFA salary, and an accrued season when he'll only play a few minutes, won't provide what we want from that line, and won't be able to improve on the scoring/skating/strength that we want him to provide in the future? And in the OHL he got time with heavy minutes, being double shifted and playing on the PK and PP. Which should help him in all areas.

By the way, welcome to 2007, where Moen was a valuable 3rd liner, an important part of the checking line that shut down all the top scorers we faced. Not to mention his being our 6th highest scoring forward in the playoffs.

And why do you keep saying that he didn't improve in this past year? In the AHL he got 9 points in 8 games versus 8 points in 19 games the year before. Not to mention Portland fans saying his skating was much improved and his decision making was much improved. And what does he need to work on to make it in the NHL? Skating, defense, and decision making. So I'd say that's progress.


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Old
07-13-2007, 09:22 PM
  #65
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It's not like he's good enough to come into the league and put up 50 points, so you're gonna have to waste "year of development, RFA salary, and an accrued season" eventually. Might as well do it helping him earlier rather than later and not another useless year in the OHL.

The AHL improvement was due to playing in the playoffs then in the regular season.

Face it; it was a bad pick.
Jack Johnson or Marc Staal, future Norris winner?
Carey Price, Vezina?
Anze Kopitar, Art Ross?
All four, Hart?

Bobby Ryan, ????

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07-13-2007, 10:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Rapid_i_movemenT View Post
Well we signed one of, if not THE, best players in the NHL to a killer deal. We didn't over spend in the UFA market so we can resign some of our young talent next season, and hopefully resign Marleau. Hell we didn't spend at all, but its still mid-july - still plenty of time to trade. We're WAY under the cap, so there's still room for possibilities.

So actually, after coming to terms with it all, I am ok with how things have panned out. Of course it could have been better.

But whats with you anyway, did I pinch a nerve?
No, but I recognize smugness, being a huge proponent of it myself. I just wonder where a fan of a perennial playoff failure of a team found the temerity to be smug towards the defending champions.

Giggle and chuckle at our defense group all you like, but until that group of bumbling kids on your blueline grows up, you'll never reach the promised land, Joe "playoff hero" thornton or no.

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07-13-2007, 10:50 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
It's not like he's good enough to come into the league and put up 50 points, so you're gonna have to waste "year of development, RFA salary, and an accrued season" eventually. Might as well do it helping him earlier rather than later and not another useless year in the OHL.

The AHL improvement was due to playing in the playoffs then in the regular season.

Face it; it was a bad pick.
Jack Johnson or Marc Staal, future Norris winner?
Carey Price, Vezina?
Anze Kopitar, Art Ross?
All four, Hart?

Bobby Ryan, ????
This is so stupid. You use words as if you're not stupid, but then you say stupid things with them, which may actually be even more stupid, because it's deliberate stupidity, whereas stupid people can't help themselves. For shame.

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Old
07-13-2007, 10:54 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
It's not like he's good enough to come into the league and put up 50 points, so you're gonna have to waste "year of development, RFA salary, and an accrued season" eventually. Might as well do it helping him earlier rather than later and not another useless year in the OHL.
This doesn't make any sense. Why would we have to use a year eventually? If he plays in the NHL this year he gets all milestones such as UFA a year early. The CBA is set up so players play 2 years in the CHL then play professionally. If he's not good enough to contribute to our team now so we can win a cup, why lose a year in his prime or pay extra when we don't have to?

And however little you think of Ryan, it's still way to early to claim him a bust yet. Getzlaf scored 21 fewer points in his 19 year old season than his 18 year old season. Was he a bad pick? Players mature at different rates. He may still end up better than anyone you mentioned. Hell, it's likely that someone else ends up better than all of them. That's how drafts go.

And all of which is totally irrelevant to the thread. Short of Crosby, none of the players picked in 2005 would make a big difference to us for next season. Not even Kopitar. McDonald and Getzlaf are better now, Pahlsson is a better checker, and Marchant is a better fit for the fourth line.

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07-13-2007, 11:57 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
So what happens next season? And the one after that? Is he gonna have his first season when he's ready to fully contribute?
Yes. His first season will be when he's ready to contribute. It'll likely be 08-09.

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If you consider a "lost RFA season" as one where he doesn't contribute enough but plays enough games to take away that year, then he's gonna have a season like that eventually.
Nope, next season is not a lost RFA season. His seasons start accruing no matter what league he plays in after 20. He'll be an UFA at 27 whether he's in the NHL or the AHL.

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There's not gonna be a year where all-of-a-sudden he comes in scoring 60 points. He's no Anze. There's gonna be a year where he's gonna have to learn the ropes and have a bad season. It happened to the Kings this season with Patrick O'Sullivan. So I don't get your point about not wanting to waste a year of free agency. It'll happen eventually so it might as well have happened this past season.
There's 2 issues here. Putting them in a level so they improve and not using up unnecessary RFA years. O'Sullivan had 93 points last year in the AHL, there's not much he can learn there. And the Kings have more room for him, they didn't have a strong team. So he can develop in the NHL. And he's past 20, so it makes no difference in terms of RFA years. Last season Ryan would lose an RFA year and the team's scoring RW positions were taken up. Ideally he would be in the AHL, but he couldn't so he was in the OHL. And it isn't inevitable that have a bad season. That's what proper development is for. And to see what happens when you bring a kid up too early, see your own Jokinen. He was over his head, and it slowed his development.

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I'm not saying he's a bust, but don't tell me you wouldn't have any of those players instead of him.
Long term I only take Kopitar ahead of Ryan. None of the others have proven themselves in the NHL either, and Ryan has huge potential as a big guy with incredible hands. The others are looking good too, but it's too early to say and I'll give our scouts the benefit of the doubt.

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*** are you talking about? You wouldn't take Anze on your team next season? And since when are McDonald and baldy Getzlaugh better?
I like Kopitar a lot. He's got a lot of potential, he may be better than Getzlaf eventually. But for a Cup run for next season, yes I do prefer our centers to Kopitar. One's an All-Star, the other was probably our best forward in the playoffs. "I mean, I know there's homerism, but lets not be silly."

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07-14-2007, 12:40 AM
  #70
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Two words in response to anyone who thinks you can judge a recently drafted player by the early returns: Jimmy Carson.

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07-14-2007, 01:04 AM
  #71
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I remember seeing the Jack Johnson get creamed. He was sitting on the ground. Waiting to get up. Wishing he had a better team.
This might be the post of the off-season. You just used lyrics from a Jack Johnson song in an argument about Jack Johnson the player. I never thought of the day Jack Johnson's lyrics would be used in a hockey discussion.

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07-14-2007, 01:05 AM
  #72
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Two words in response to anyone who thinks you can judge a recently drafted player by the early returns: Jimmy Carson.
Nice. King related too. Although I'm not sure if the kind of people who judge players early are old enough to know who he is.

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07-14-2007, 01:18 AM
  #73
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Are you sure playing in the A counts as a year of the contract? That sounds odd. You're probably wrong.

And I actually agree with you about Ryan not being ready. That was actually the basis of my entire point - Bobby Ryan was a ****** draft pick. When he plays his first game in 08/09, its likely that 7 of the 10 people drafted directly after him will already have played their first game. And several of them a full season.

I think its funny that this entire discussion of Bobby Ryan started with a throwaway comment I made. A comment which would be agreed upon by 99.5% of hockey fans, with the remaining .5% made up of delusional Ducks fans.

Quote:
Ryan has huge potential as a big guy with incredible hands.
So his potential is to be an inferior version of Anze Kopitar? So why didn't you guys just draft Kopitar?

Quote:
I like Kopitar a lot. He's got a lot of potential, he may be better than Getzlaf eventually. But for a Cup run for next season, yes I do prefer our centers to Kopitar. One's an All-Star, the other was probably our best forward in the playoffs. "I mean, I know there's homerism, but lets not be silly."
Jaroslav Modry is also an All-Star. Kings offer Jaroslav Modry and a 3rd Rd pick for Andy McDonald. Deal?

And your best forward in the playoffs scored less pts/gm than Anze Kopitar. Its kind of funny; throughout the season, whenever the Kopitar/Getzlaf arguement would come up, Ducks fans would always point to Getzlaf getting less icetime (which is a terrible argument in the first place). But then when the playoffs roll around, Getzlaf does get the icetime. Ryan's playoff average was 21.75 minutes. Anze's season average was 20.5 minutes. And Kopitar still outscored Getzlaf in points/game and even moreso in points/minute.

So Anze is already better. The only question is whether in the 2.25 years age difference, Anze will make the gap even bigger.

Kopitar is also not an arrogant ***** nor does he piss & moan about every call. Nor is he balding.

Quote:
Jimmy Carson stuff
Actually, I know full well who Jimmy Carson is. He was a great player who was ruined by the Edmonton fans because they expected him to be Gretzky. There was a nice article about him in the LA Times around the time of Luc's retirement. You guys should check it out.

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early returns
A 19-year-old with a 61 point season (in 72 games)
A 21-year-old with a 58 point season (in 81 games)

I'll take my early returns, thank-you-very-much.


Whatever our differences, I think we can all agree that Anaheim is a glorified suburb that doesn't even deserve pro teams.


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Old
07-14-2007, 01:25 AM
  #74
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I get it now. You just hate on us because your team sucks.

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07-14-2007, 01:29 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by KiteKiteKite View Post
A 19-year-old with a 61 point season (in 72 games)
A 21-year-old with a 58 point season (in 81 games)

I'll take my early returns, thank-you-very-much.
I'll take my Stanley Cup, thank YOU very much. Loser Kings fans, its just sad how you have to find something to make yourself feel better.

But we tied the season series.
But, but we have Anze Kopitar.

BFD. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

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