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Old
08-15-2007, 10:17 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
give the kid a chance.
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
Yep.

And I fully agree with your lines.
Me too. I've been on the 'try Knuble at 3rd line' boat since day 1. It makes plenty of sense

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Old
08-15-2007, 10:23 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
give the kid a chance.
He should earn his spot on the top line. If he plays soft and just floats around waiting for others to create chances for him, coughs up the puck when pressured, is useless along the boards, and is a liability in his own end, why should he be getting among the top minutes on the team? This is what he's known for, that and his great shot. We shouldnt be trying to maximize Lupul's production, we should be trying to maximize Gagne-Briere's.

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08-15-2007, 10:28 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
He should earn his spot on the top line. If he plays soft and just floats around waiting for others to create chances for him, coughs up the puck when pressured, is useless along the boards, and is a liability in his own end, why should he be getting among the top minutes on the team? This is what he's known for, that and his great shot. We shouldnt be trying to maximize Lupul's production, we should be trying to maximize Gagne-Briere's.
no, we should be trying to maximize the team's production. i think Lupul playing with those two will maximize his production, and you'll only see a minor dip in Knuble's production playing with Richards... whereas i think you're likely to get decidedly less from Lupul with Carter (who doesn't like to pass so much) and Lupul on a 'defensive' line is somewhat scary to me.

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08-15-2007, 11:07 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
no, we should be trying to maximize the team's production. i think Lupul playing with those two will maximize his production, and you'll only see a minor dip in Knuble's production playing with Richards... whereas i think you're likely to get decidedly less from Lupul with Carter (who doesn't like to pass so much) and Lupul on a 'defensive' line is somewhat scary to me.
How about maximize the teams production, while minimizing goals against? Lupul might well be one of those guys that hurts you more than he helps you on the ice, even if he scores 30.

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08-15-2007, 11:15 AM
  #80
Jester
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
How about maximize the teams production, while minimizing goals against? Lupul might well be one of those guys that hurts you more than he helps you on the ice, even if he scores 30.
then he'll be on the ice with the best defensive forward we got... on a line that should be spending the majority of its time in the offensive zone.

you really telling me you'd rather have him on a line with Carter (who has a lot of work to do on his defensive game) or with Richards who will be in a much more 'defensive' role on this club next year? part of the reason i'm not a fan of the Lupul acquisition is that i just don't think our roster fits together all that well as far as roles. we'll see what happens.


Last edited by Jester: 08-15-2007 at 11:22 AM.
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08-15-2007, 11:47 AM
  #81
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[QUOTE=Jester;10187075]then he'll be on the ice with the best defensive forward we got... on a line that should be spending the majority of its time in the offensive zone.[quote]

The point is that without a guy like Knuble who can dig for pucks, the line wont be in the offensive zone as much. He doesnt turn the puck over in the offensive zone, and can creat turnovers and break up plays in the defensive zone so Gagne doesnt have to. Knuble is the first line support player that keeps the stars producing. You are saying you would rather have Gagne all the way back in his zone playing defense to cover for Lupul and Briere (who also doesn play D)? No. Lupul has no business on the top line getting huge minutes unless he can show some good fundamentals.

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you really telling me you'd rather have him on a line with Carter (who has a lot of work to do on his defensive game) or with Richards who will be in a much more 'defensive' role on this club next year? part of the reason i'm not a fan of the Lupul acquisition is that i just don't think our roster fits together all that well as far as roles. we'll see what happens.
No, I really think he will be on the fourth line, getting low minutes 5 on 5 + some PP time.

Also, not sure why you think Richards role will be purely defensive. 3rd line does not mean shut down line, and its entirely possible we could try to roll out 3 or even 4 balanced scoring lines. I think Richards is not the shut down defensive center people think he is. He is better offensively and not as good on D as people think. It was Richards who looked to be the better offensive player than Carter at the end of last season, so why limit him to a purely defensive role? Actually I can see Richards working with Lupul, since Richards is a playmaker that can feed the puck while Sami is a good worker. Throw in a shooter like Lupul and they could be a productive two way threat.

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08-15-2007, 12:00 PM
  #82
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Holmgren or Stevens is on record saying they want Richards to focus on developing his two-way, 'shutdown' skill-set this upcoming year. So, he should be matching up and all that jazz... Therefore, he'll have some non-trivial defensive responsibilities.

I highly doubt Lupul plays on the 4th line, as that makes very little sense as far as use of talent... you're clearly very down on the kid, but he has popped a few goals in this league and is very young. If he gets chances, he'll bury 'em.

Personally, I don't think Knuble fits well on a line with Gagne and Briere. Knuble found significant success in this league playing with Joe Thornton, and Forsberg. Those are two players who play very much alike... they play strong on the puck, like to control it down low, and neither likes to rush the puck at that quick a speed. Knuble is by no means a poor skater, but if Gagne and Briere want to turn on the jets and start making neutral zone rushes... he won't be keeping up. That's a pairing that, unlike with Forsberg at center, should be playing above the goal line a fair bit more... away from Knuble's strengths.

I will also note that the defensive zone responsibility of wings is up the boards on the point, so I'm not sure why you think Knuble helps out so much about getting the puck off the opponents... Gagne and Briere should play much different than any line we've had in Philly since I've been paying close attention... this isn't going to be a bang and cycle down low line, they're going to be able to play the puck through the neutral zone and take advantage of teams with speed as a pair, as opposed to just Gagne being a burner.

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Old
08-15-2007, 12:09 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post

The point is that without a guy like Knuble who can dig for pucks, the line wont be in the offensive zone as much. He doesnt turn the puck over in the offensive zone, and can creat turnovers and break up plays in the defensive zone so Gagne doesnt have to. Knuble is the first line support player that keeps the stars producing. You are saying you would rather have Gagne all the way back in his zone playing defense to cover for Lupul and Briere (who also doesn play D)? No. Lupul has no business on the top line getting huge minutes unless he can show some good fundamentals.



No, I really think he will be on the fourth line, getting low minutes 5 on 5 + some PP time.

Also, not sure why you think Richards role will be purely defensive. 3rd line does not mean shut down line, and its entirely possible we could try to roll out 3 or even 4 balanced scoring lines. I think Richards is not the shut down defensive center people think he is. He is better offensively and not as good on D as people think. It was Richards who looked to be the better offensive player than Carter at the end of last season, so why limit him to a purely defensive role? Actually I can see Richards working with Lupul, since Richards is a playmaker that can feed the puck while Sami is a good worker. Throw in a shooter like Lupul and they could be a productive two way threat.
Sorry but youre wrong. Lupul on t he 4th line? Whether you like it or not Holmgren didn't aqcuire Lupul to play on our 4th line. Fact of the matter is that the only place Lupul has a chance of working are on one of the top 2 lines. Makes perfect sense to try him on line 1.

And what's really laughable about your crusade to bury Lupul in the lineup is that you think he is too much of a defensive liability for our top line (WHOSE JOB IS TO SCORE), yet you think he's a good fit on a line with Richardsand Kapanen who will be playing consistently against other team's top lines. Hello? Anyone home?

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Old
08-15-2007, 12:30 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by exlund View Post
Prediction in 3-4 years

Gagne Briere Upshall
JVR Carter Giroux
Nodl Richards Kempe
Eager Hartnell Downie

Coburn Timonen
Parent Picard
Bartulis Smith
Ratchuk

Biron
Nitty
Hartnell on 4th line? Is that why we gave him 4M a year?

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Old
08-15-2007, 12:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Hartnell on 4th line? Is that why we gave him 4M a year?
the money doesn't really matter... Hartnell is playing center and we're planning on Kempe being over Downie? lotta issues with that lineup prediction...

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08-15-2007, 01:16 PM
  #86
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i can see kempe being over downie, since kempe is an offensive forward. however, i really dont see him making the flyers, since he has hardly impressed in the q. i'd say keep downie on the 4th line and put hartnell as RW on the 3rd line. i saw we'll probably have a new 4th line center by that time.

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Old
08-15-2007, 01:49 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by kz View Post
Sorry but youre wrong. Lupul on t he 4th line? Whether you like it or not Holmgren didn't aqcuire Lupul to play on our 4th line. Fact of the matter is that the only place Lupul has a chance of working are on one of the top 2 lines. Makes perfect sense to try him on line 1.
My prediction: they try him there, he stinks, gets demoted. Ever hear of Peter Nedved or Mike York? Were they acquired to be fourth line players too? If he plays like he did last season, Stevens would be a fool to keep him on the top line, whatever Holgren might have thought when they acquired him.

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And what's really laughable about your crusade to bury Lupul in the lineup
Its a thread about line predictions. I am not on a "crusade", because none of us can influence the lines (duh).

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is that you think he is too much of a defensive liability for our top line (WHOSE JOB IS TO SCORE), yet you think he's a good fit on a line with Richardsand Kapanen who will be playing consistently against other team's top lines.

And did you actually read my post? RICHARDS IS NOT A SHUT DOWN CENTER. He is responsible, he hits, but is not nearly good enough on face offs or as tight a checker as you seem to think. He can score, and started to score at a very rapid clip the second half of last season. He is a two way threat, and adding Lupul to that line up would make it a balanced scoring line. You seem to be stuck in this idea that 1st line = pure scoring with no responsibility, 2nd line = a slightly less talented version of line 1, 3rd = pure shut down that never sores and 4th = crap or another shutdown line. Lupul needs a good centerman who can dish the puck because he doesnt create his own chances, and he needs to someone to cover for him on D when he makes turnovers and floats.

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Hello? Anyone home?
Get a grip.

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Old
08-15-2007, 02:00 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
i can see kempe being over downie, since kempe is an offensive forward. however, i really dont see him making the flyers, since he has hardly impressed in the q. i'd say keep downie on the 4th line and put hartnell as RW on the 3rd line. i saw we'll probably have a new 4th line center by that time.
3-4 years from now, i'll be very disappointed if all Downie has become is a 4th liner.

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08-15-2007, 02:01 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
My prediction: they try him there, he stinks, gets demoted. Ever hear of Peter Nedved or Mike York? Were they acquired to be fourth line players too? If he plays like he did last season, Stevens would be a fool to keep him on the top line, whatever Holgren might have thought when they acquired him.
Um, yes? Nedved and York were washed up busts brought in praying for a rebound. Lupul is a 23 year old player drafted 6 overall 3 years ago and who scored 30 goals 2 years ago. These scenarios aren't similar. Bad comparison


Quote:
Its a thread about line predictions. I am not on a "crusade", because none of us can influence the lines (duh).
Your predicting Lupul to play on the 4th line. It's asinine and sounds like a crusade to me.

Quote:
And did you actually read my post? RICHARDS IS NOT A SHUT DOWN CENTER. He is responsible, he hits, but is not nearly good enough on face offs or as tight a checker as you seem to think. He can score, and started to score at a very rapid clip the second half of last season. He is a two way threat, and adding Lupul to that line up would make it a balanced scoring line. You seem to be stuck in this idea that 1st line = pure scoring with no responsibility, 2nd line = a slightly less talented version of line 1, 3rd = pure shut down that never sores and 4th = crap or another shutdown line. Lupul needs a good centerman who can dish the puck because he doesnt create his own chances, and he needs to someone to cover for him on D when he makes turnovers and floats.
Richards is centering the top defensive line on this team. They want him to be a checking line center who has 2-way pop. Theres no refuting this... at all

I'm not saying Lupul will not end up playing with Richards, but from a purely logical stance it makes little sense to slot him there instead of the top 2 lines.

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Get a grip.
Ok?

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Old
08-15-2007, 02:02 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
i can see kempe being over downie, since kempe is an offensive forward. however, i really dont see him making the flyers, since he has hardly impressed in the q. i'd say keep downie on the 4th line and put hartnell as RW on the 3rd line. i saw we'll probably have a new 4th line center by that time.
Kempe is nowhere near the prospect Downie is. He's a project, simple as that. Slotting him in any lineup ahead of Downie is laughable

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08-15-2007, 02:03 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
And did you actually read my post? RICHARDS IS NOT A SHUT DOWN CENTER. He is responsible, he hits, but is not nearly good enough on face offs or as tight a checker as you seem to think. He can score, and started to score at a very rapid clip the second half of last season. He is a two way threat, and adding Lupul to that line up would make it a balanced scoring line. You seem to be stuck in this idea that 1st line = pure scoring with no responsibility, 2nd line = a slightly less talented version of line 1, 3rd = pure shut down that never sores and 4th = crap or another shutdown line. Lupul needs a good centerman who can dish the puck because he doesnt create his own chances, and he needs to someone to cover for him on D when he makes turnovers and floats.
I question Richards as a 'shutdown' center as well, but that's the role he seems to be destined for here... whether you want to call it 'shutdown' or just 'matchup' is up to you, but at the end of the day Richards is going to be seeing a ton of time against the opponents top lines.

Lupul has better talent than 4th line... he needs to find the back of the net with consistency to take advantage of it, but he's better than what you're making him out to be. there are plenty of shooting wingers that have been less than defensively responsible in this league while being productive.

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08-15-2007, 02:33 PM
  #92
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Lupul will not fall to the 4th line he will be 2nd or 3rd winger depending on how well he can gel with Carter and Hartnell.

Personally I would like to see him on Richard's wing. Richards being more of a "pass first" player than Carter I think that Lupul would fit best there.

I also agree w/ Mojo, there is NO WAY that Lupul makes it onto the top line unless we are decimated by injuries. We absolutely need someone like Knuble to dig out pucks from the corners and put away rebounds. Lupul is not that sort of player. The top line Gagne-Briere-Knuble should stay intact.

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08-15-2007, 02:36 PM
  #93
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It's a nice problem to have, isn't it? Lupul fits on the 3rd line, since Kapanen can switch to LW and Richards is a good passer, but he might find chemistry with Gagne and Briere. He'd be wasted on the 4th line, and I think that the 2nd line would be way to shoot-happy with Hartnell and Carter already. Carter and Upshall have chemistry, too.

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08-15-2007, 02:52 PM
  #94
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It's a nice problem to have, isn't it? Lupul fits on the 3rd line, since Kapanen can switch to LW and Richards is a good passer, but he might find chemistry with Gagne and Briere. He'd be wasted on the 4th line, and I think that the 2nd line would be way to shoot-happy with Hartnell and Carter already. Carter and Upshall have chemistry, too.
if he's as much of a defensive mess as some say (i admit, i haven't watched him closely enough), then he's a problem at the 3rd line level given who Richards will be playing against... i don't want a known defensive liability on the ice with a line that we are saying is going to be playing against Crosby... Gomez and Jagr, etc.

one of the compelling reasons to put Richards/Knuble together is that Knuble is very solid defensively, while also having the finishing ability to not leave Richards with a hole on his wing.... which Kapanen is. Kapanen is only going to get 10ish goals next season, but Knuble could easily pop 20+ on that line, while being a two-way anchor for Richards to play with.

we'll see.

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08-15-2007, 04:28 PM
  #95
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Gagne - Briere - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Upshall
Downie - Richards - Knuble
Kapanen - Potulny/Umberger - Umberger/Eager

Timonen - Smith
Coburn - Hatcher
Picard - Kukkonen

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08-15-2007, 05:07 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Shaun_W_W View Post
Gagne - Briere - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Upshall
Downie - Richards - Knuble
Kapanen - Potulny/Umberger - Umberger/Eager

Timonen - Smith
Coburn - Hatcher
Picard - Kukkonen
No, No, No

Gagne- Briere- Knuble/Upshall
Hartnell- Carter- Lupul
Umberger- Richards- Upshall/Knuble
Eager- Potulny- Kapenen

Timonen- Smith
Picard- Kukkonen
Coburn-Hatcher

As far as offense, Lupul can work on the second line if Timonen or Picard is on the ice. Carter needs to work on passing and the chemistry here needs to be worked on in camp. If any changes are to be made, Hartnell should be moved to first line before Lupul, at all costs. I think Knuble would be best served on the first line anyway (with Gagne- Briere he brings some balance and defense to a unit that will also see Timonen passing the puck up ice.) If Lupul is as bad in so many areas of his game as everyone says, WHY WOULD YOU PUT HIM ON THE TOP LINE TO GET THE MOST MINUTES??? In my mind its second line or fourth for Lupul.

I want Picard to be on the ice with Hartnell, Carter, and Lupul because he is an offensive defensemen and he could help move the puck into the offensive zone. Hatcher and Coburn are third pairing because Hatcher needs to get less working time to work the PK.

Lines 1-3 should use the top 2 pairing defensemen as much as they can. The last pairing (Hatcher and Coburn) should work with the 4th line and PK as well as see limited time with the other lines.

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08-15-2007, 11:47 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Shaun_W_W View Post
Gagne - Briere - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Upshall
Downie - Richards - Knuble
Kapanen - Potulny/Umberger - Umberger/Eager

Timonen - Smith
Coburn - Hatcher
Picard - Kukkonen
I think it is unlikely that Downie will even get a call up this year.

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08-16-2007, 12:24 AM
  #98
Jester
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I think it is unlikely that Downie will even get a call up this year.
right now... he has an outside shot at making the roster as the 4th line RW. wouldn't be shocked to see him surpass Ruzicka as the first call up for the wing with a quickness.

i'll be pretty shocked if he doesn't get a game or two at some point this coming season, unless he falls flat in the AHL... which will be a bad sign.

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08-16-2007, 12:51 AM
  #99
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I think it is unlikely that Downie will even get a call up this year.
It would require a downright pathetic AHL start for him to not get a single call up.

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Old
08-16-2007, 06:31 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Nicto10 View Post
Gagne - Briere - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Upshall
Kapanen - Richards - Knuble
Eager - Potulny - Umberger

Timonen - Smith
Coburn - Hatcher
Picard - Kukkonen
would love to see this

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