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Canadiens interested in McDonald..

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Old
07-16-2007, 08:49 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by abax44 View Post
Last time you checked Bertuzzi wasn't on the team. Depth, man. Depth. Bert is a proven 1st line player. If he lives up to expectations I think there is a real possibility that he plays on the top line with McD and Selanne. That said, if Teemu retires I think Kunitz keeps his spot along side Andy and Bert stays on the right side.

Bert isn't slow, nor does he need to keep up with McDonald or Selanne (fastest player on the team according to Marchant, not half bad himself), he just has to create space and go stand in front of the net.

No way the Ducks forth line gets what you're expecting. Parros, May, Thornton, Shannon...what did those guys get last year? They avg. about 4 min in the playoffs, probably a little more during the season.

At the end of the day it's still just speculation and *gasp* my opinion. Whatever happens, happens. Carlyle has a pretty good idea what's going on out there.
Carlyle has admitted he needs to play them 10 min a game at least.

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07-17-2007, 01:24 AM
  #77
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Anyone who thinks Chris Kunitz sucks, doesn't know much about hockey.

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07-17-2007, 08:44 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
When Selanne already has awesome chemistry with McDonald?
With Koivu, Selanne is more dominating even without any chemistry (or time to create any). In international events, they've needed about one morning skate to start scoring big time. Now, imagine if they were given the opportunity to build chemistry for an entire season.

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Why do people keep talking about Selanne and Koivu?
*cough*
*cough*
*cough*
Gee, I wonder why.

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Originally Posted by luckoftheduck View Post
Koivu is no different than McDonald in terms of causing Teemu to come back. McDonald and Selanne are the 2nd best scoring combo in Ducks history behind a pretty good one in Kariya and Selanne.
Koivu and Selanne would be, no wait, ARE the best scoring combo in hockey history. I don't know about Teemu's personal feelings, but hockey-wise Selanne and Koivu would almost ruin the sport with their dominance if they played an entire season together. It would be like Lecavalier and St. Louis, only better and the other way round positionally (the midget would be at center and the sniper would be the RW).

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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
McDonald's a lot closer to a #1 center than Koivu is. McDonald has 163 points in his last 164 games. Do you know how many times Koivu has had back to back seasons where he scored points at that rate or better? ZERO. Do you know the number of times Koivu has topped McDonald's 2nd best point total? ZERO.
Do you know how many seasons Andy Mac has played in a crappy Montreal team without any skilled wingers? ZERO. Do you know how many seasons Koivu has played with a scoring legend like Teemu? ZERO.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bright Side View Post
Did you see the chemistry Selanne and McDonald have together? Did you even notice that Teemu clicks with pretty much everyone he plays with when he's healthy?
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Maybe he's just a good, smart ****ing hockey player.
Which is exactly why MacDonald is even compared to Koivu. The kid's got speed and that's all you need to be good linemates with Selanne. But if you're also a phenomenal passer, a pressure-handling machine and a gritty, penalty-drawing fireball with leadership qualities like Koivu, Selanne will be even better. Too bad this will never happen on NHL ice.

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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
You'd think if it were so important for Selanne to play with Koivu, he'd have signed with Montreal one of the several times he's been UFA.
As more of a Teemu fan than a Duck fan, I hope this will happen next season. Montreal have enough cap space to give him something close to the money he deserves. 3.75 million (or even less, as in Burke's daydreams) for an offensive magician like Teemu is the biggest joke in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Doug Wilson View Post
In an offseason where they could lose Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selanne, I don't think it's a good idea for the Ducks to be trading away offense.
Getting better offense in return (the suggested Koivu scenario) isn't actually a loss of any kind.

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Originally Posted by RallyKiller View Post
Anyone who thinks Chris Kunitz sucks, doesn't know much about hockey.
Anyone who uses that line is either full of himself or afraid of opposing views being right. Why is that "disagree with me and you know nothing about hockey" so common among hockey fans? Why do Anaheim fans also use that even though they get that crap from all the bigger hockey markets (the Canadian/Minnesotan theory: living in SoCal = no hockey knowledge)? That being said, anyone who claims that Andy MacDonald is better than Saku Koivu is either ignorant or an idiot. And doesn't know much about hockey

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07-17-2007, 09:47 AM
  #79
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wow some koivu big fan

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07-17-2007, 10:02 AM
  #80
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Ntc

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07-17-2007, 10:05 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ktulu98 View Post
wow some koivu big fan
Nice stats to back all that info up though.. I knew they were good, but I didn't know they were THAT good.

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07-17-2007, 11:58 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by luckoftheduck View Post
Carlyle has admitted he needs to play them 10 min a game at least.
Of course he needs to, but will he? That could be the 4.5 million dollar question.

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07-17-2007, 12:01 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by RallyKiller View Post
Anyone who thinks Chris Kunitz sucks, doesn't know much about hockey.
You probably would've said the same thing about Lupul before he left the Ducks too.

Let me be more clear, Kunitz doesn't suck, but on most other teams I feel he becomes more of a role player rather then a #1 LW.

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07-17-2007, 12:11 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by abax44 View Post
Of course he needs to, but will he? That could be the 4.5 million dollar question.
I think what it boils down to is having a fourth line that can be used more then the 4 minutes. I think that option is far more likely with a healthy Marchant, May for the full season and guys like Miller and maybe Carter in the mix.

That wasn't an option during the playoffs, in part due to injuries, in part due to inexperience and in part due to the fact you need your horses to be horses and be on the ice during the postseason.

Assuming everything in the top 3 lines remains the same and assuming players stay relatively healthy (which is a big leap, I know), a fourth line with a core of Marchant and May and a rotation of Parros and Miller on the other wing appears, on paper, to be much improved from the melange of Parros, Thornton, Shannon, Hartigan, Brent from last season. Marchant is really the key though, if he can't stay healthy, the rest of the line suffers.

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07-17-2007, 12:12 PM
  #85
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But Lupul was openly one-dimensional.
He could shoot. He didn't put in effort, or hitting, or defense.

Kunitz puts in effort all the time. His stats are padded by Teemu and Andy, but he also makes them better.

The thing about Saku is that he has played with some Kovalev guy, who was once allegedly one of the best players in the game. I think that the inability to make Kovalev "elite" suggests that Saku is not the player he once was. To suggest that Saku would do better with Teemu seems preposterous.

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07-17-2007, 12:19 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by abax44 View Post
You probably would've said the same thing about Lupul before he left the Ducks too.

Let me be more clear, Kunitz doesn't suck, but on most other teams I feel he becomes more of a role player rather then a #1 LW.
He's like Steve Rucchin back in the day with Kariya and Selanne or Brendan Morrison back with Naslund and Bertuzzi. Is he as elite as his linemates? Nope. Does he fit the role perfectly? Yeap. Is there other options available on the open market that could do the job better? Maybe, but why risk it when a more than adequate option exists within the organization.

Kunitz fills a role on that line, does it extremely well, does it for a more then affordable price and isn't a slug holding his linemates back. He's the perfect complementary player, not the star, but he doesn't have to be. He's got chemistry with his linemates, knows his role and doesn't look out of place.

Sure if Henrik Zetterberg lined up with McDonald and Selanne last year, maybe each player would have gotten an additional 10 points. But it's really not a huge concern, especially with Kunitz coming at almost half the price of Zetterberg. Of this year's crop of left winger UFAs, Jason Blake, Slava Kozlov, Paul Kariya, Brendan Shanahan and Ryan Smyth scored more then Kunitz. All of them signed for millions more then what the Ducks are paying Kunitz, which if they chose to replace him, would be money that they would have been unable to use elsewhere like signing Schneider and Bertuzzi or keeping Giguere.

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07-17-2007, 12:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Teukka View Post
*cough*
*cough*
*cough*
Gee, I wonder why.
I know that they play well together (it's actually better than I thought), but my question has more to do with their supposed friendship, of which I haven't found any evidence. Part of the reasoning behind the trade is that maybe Selanne would come back to play with Koivu but not McDonald. And I haven't found anything suggesting that.

The other thing is who knows if these results can translate to NHL sized ice.

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Which is exactly why MacDonald is even compared to Koivu. The kid's got speed and that's all you need to be good linemates with Selanne. But if you're also a phenomenal passer, a pressure-handling machine and a gritty, penalty-drawing fireball with leadership qualities like Koivu, Selanne will be even better.
This is what I find interesting. Apparently McDonald's become a goal scorer in the eyes of other fans. There's been mention of this in the McDonald vs Koivu thread too. McDonald is more of a playmaker, Selanne is our goalscorer. He sets up Selanne with his speed, passing, and anticipation of where Selanne will be. In fact I'd say McDonald has a pretty poor one-timer for a ~30 goal scorer. I think people have been fooled by his playoffs. That said, Koivu may be better at setting up plays.

And Kunitz is our member of the line who's the "gritty fireball." McDonald's speed probably makes that line work better as a whole, even if it may make as good as a duo as Selanne and Koivu.

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Montreal have enough cap space to give him something close to the money he deserves. 3.75 million (or even less, as in Burke's daydreams) for an offensive magician like Teemu is the biggest joke in the NHL.
Not 3.75 million. Selanne made 6 million last season, he had major incentives based on team performance in the playoffs. If you wanted to convince him it'd probably have to be around that figure guaranteed.

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07-17-2007, 12:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by abax44 View Post
You probably would've said the same thing about Lupul before he left the Ducks too.

Let me be more clear, Kunitz doesn't suck, but on most other teams I feel he becomes more of a role player rather then a #1 LW.
Actually Lupul was pretty much the board's whipping boy even in his 28 goal season. A few people still liked him but in general we thought he did suck. But that he had the talent to turn it around with some hard work.

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07-17-2007, 12:35 PM
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I never said that Kunitz didn't fit with McD and Teemu. You can't really argue that.

I said on another team he's not too likely to find himself on the first line. I think that's an accurate statement.

Just looking at TSN's website (take this with a grain of salt, obviously), they have Lupul listed as a top 6 fwd and Kunitz as a 3rd liner.

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07-17-2007, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
Marchant is really the key though, if he can't stay healthy, the rest of the line suffers.
He's a perfect 4th line center.

LOL @ me not being allowed to write queue eff tee

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07-17-2007, 01:21 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by abax44 View Post
I never said that Kunitz didn't fit with McD and Teemu. You can't really argue that.

I said on another team he's not too likely to find himself on the first line. I think that's an accurate statement.

Just looking at TSN's website (take this with a grain of salt, obviously), they have Lupul listed as a top 6 fwd and Kunitz as a 3rd liner.
Up until the lockout ended, I don't think anyone here thought that Kunitz would be much more then a 3rd liner. Since then, I think that idea is still sticking around throughout the league, just because he's underrated.

Kunitz is, without question, a top six forward in the Jason Blake mold (I actually used that comparison back when Kunitz was a prospect, and before Blake broke out, and here we are, with both players exceeding previous expectations). He might not be a star and he might not be able to carry a line offensively (who's to say though, as that chance has never presented itself), but he can score, play well on both sides of the ice and do all the little things to help his teammates out.

As for him not being top line material throughout the league, that I'm not too sure about. Everytime he's been given increased responsibility, he's risen to the challenge. Considering the depth overall throughout the league at the left wing position, I think it might be difficult to find 30 other guys who'd be better choices at that position then Kunitz. By definition, that would make him a No. 1 Left Wing.

This is the cop-out answer, but at the end of the day, he was the No. 1 LW on the Stanley Cup winning team and if anything, I think the Ducks benefited from him being in that position. I think that Kunitz (like McDonald elsewhere in this thread) doesn't get the respect he deserves, because they had a 36-year-old Finn on their wing who apparently makes third liners score like first liners.

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07-17-2007, 01:42 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
But Lupul was openly one-dimensional.
He could shoot. He didn't put in effort, or hitting, or defense.

Kunitz puts in effort all the time. His stats are padded by Teemu and Andy, but he also makes them better.

The thing about Saku is that he has played with some Kovalev guy, who was once allegedly one of the best players in the game. I think that the inability to make Kovalev "elite" suggests that Saku is not the player he once was. To suggest that Saku would do better with Teemu seems preposterous.
Koivu and Kovalev only play together on the PP .. which we were good at and Kovalev could score.

On a regular shift, Kovalev played 2nd line most of the year until he played 4th line for the last few games.

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07-17-2007, 01:46 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
McDonald's a lot closer to a #1 center than Koivu is. McDonald has 163 points in his last 164 games. Do you know how many times Koivu has had back to back seasons where he scored points at that rate or better? ZERO. Do you know the number of times Koivu has topped McDonald's 2nd best point total? ZERO.
You know how many times Koivu has played with a winger as good or as productive as Selanne? ZERO. Selanne made Steve Rucchin a 70 point player for god sake.

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07-17-2007, 01:48 PM
  #94
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You know how many times Koivu has played with a winger as good or as productive as Selanne? ZERO. Selanne made Steve Rucchin a 70 point player for god sake.
That was also 10 years ago.

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07-17-2007, 01:50 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post

This is the cop-out answer, but at the end of the day, he was the No. 1 LW on the Stanley Cup winning team and if anything, I think the Ducks benefited from him being in that position. I think that Kunitz (like McDonald elsewhere in this thread) doesn't get the respect he deserves, because they had a 36-year-old Finn on their wing who apparently makes third liners score like first liners.
I think both Kunitz and McDonald are good players. I also think playing with said 36 yr old (37 now) Finn certainly helps them though. If you can dish the puck to a guy who gets 300 shots and then proceeds to score on ~15% of them you're going to do ok.

The three of them have chemistry, no doubt. But, I think if Bert were to walk in and get his form back playing with McD and Selanne there's a lot more potential there then there is with Kunitz. I don't necessarily think Kunitz is a 3rd liner in general. I think he is with the Ducks though if he doesn't stick with McDonald and Selanne simpley because of Penner being on the 2nd line already. Who knows though, they could always push Penner down a line and have him playing with Marchant and whomever.

At the end of the day I won't be suprised if the 1st line is the same this season as last, but I think if Bert gets rolling you're going to want to give him as many minutes as possible. Who knows, last years 2nd line could very well end up being this years 1st.

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07-17-2007, 01:57 PM
  #96
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That was also 10 years ago.
Your point? Teemu almost cracked 100 points last year. Teemu and Saku have had insane chemistry playing together with the national team. Andy Mac is a nice player, but I doubt he'd get more than 50 pts/year playing with Higgins and Michael Ryder.

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07-17-2007, 02:34 PM
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Your point? Teemu almost cracked 100 points last year. Teemu and Saku have had insane chemistry playing together with the national team. Andy Mac is a nice player, but I doubt he'd get more than 50 pts/year playing with Higgins and Michael Ryder.
I can see it right now...

Carlyle: Burkey, we've gotta go trade Andy for Koivu.

Burke: Well, I don't know, McDonald's been pretty good for us. He was the number one center on a Cup winning team, after all. I don't know that it's a position we need to upgrade right now.

Carlyle: ARe you kidding Burkey??? Cmon, Koivu and Selanne have INSANE CHEMISTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! INSANE!!!!!!!!!!


Even in the best of worlds, how much better are Selanne's numbers going to be with Koivu? 5 more goals? 10 more points? He's not going to score 76 again, nor is he going to top 130 points. It's a sideways step.

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07-17-2007, 04:23 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by abax44 View Post
I never said that Kunitz didn't fit with McD and Teemu. You can't really argue that.

I said on another team he's not too likely to find himself on the first line. I think that's an accurate statement.

Just looking at TSN's website (take this with a grain of salt, obviously), they have Lupul listed as a top 6 fwd and Kunitz as a 3rd liner.
They also have Koivu as a #2 center.......

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07-17-2007, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
But Lupul was openly one-dimensional.
He could shoot. He didn't put in effort, or hitting, or defense.

Kunitz puts in effort all the time. His stats are padded by Teemu and Andy, but he also makes them better.

The thing about Saku is that he has played with some Kovalev guy, who was once allegedly one of the best players in the game. I think that the inability to make Kovalev "elite" suggests that Saku is not the player he once was. To suggest that Saku would do better with Teemu seems preposterous.
Thats speculation at best, wrong as well. Koivu cannot "make" Kovalev elite if they do not play together and he cannot make Kovalev elite if Kovalev himself is the player that has lost more then a step with the years. Koivu would do amazing things with Selanne, as always and as he did in the last olympics.

I think Koivu would be a great fit for Anaheim, but not at the expense of McDonald. Theres really nothing Anaheim can give they would want to part with. Besides, Getzlaf is most definetly ready for the prime time first line center role.

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07-17-2007, 04:29 PM
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Koivu and Selanne wouldn't be nearly as good of a combo in the NHL for a number of reasons. 1st of all in the olympics IMO, there are only a couple of teams(Canada, Sweden, Finland) who are better than the average NHL team. Also, the ice surface is much bigger which clearly favors speed.

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