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Old
01-02-2004, 07:27 PM
  #51
DaleHunter
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Hate to interrupt the Carney vs. Zhitnik debate, but I have to respond to some of the Gonchar offers... (btw, i think a lot of you are underrating Carney. While he maybe a #5 in Detroit, he's definitely a #3/4 in NYI, NJ... and a #2/3 in Washington... because our defense is horrid!)

Anyways....

If Washington decides to move him at the deadline for picks/prospects,
then something centered around Carlo Colaicovo with an NHL d-man going to other way.


It will most DEFINITELY not be picks/prospects. It will be a legit top 4 defenseman in his prime or just entering it, plus a #1, plus a top prospect. Anything less would be a dramatic steal on par with Clarke's Oates for Ouellet and a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Coliacavo and something; Colo could be changed to Bell or Hedin if surounding package was upped

If "something" is a #1 and Aki Berg and another pick or three... then maybe. Bell or Hedin plus some stuff ain't gonna do it. Like I said, the Caps will want a defenseman to step right in plus a highly touted prospect (preferably a defenseman as well) and picks before we even begin to negotiate.

Tucker, harrison, pick for gonchar
ok maybe you could get a few of our AHL defensman and/or a couple of our "organizational players" at the forward position for this package. Otherwise this offer is simply a bad joke.

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01-02-2004, 07:31 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islandermaniac
i hope you're not suggesting that kenny is weak defensively as he is one of the most cerebral defensive players in the league.
No, but Carney is easily better defensively. I assumed, wrong actually, that Hammer was paired with Aucoin. With the combinations there are, Hammer-Jonsson, Aucoin-Niinimaa, I wouldn't place Carney anywhere as Hammer and Aucoin are more solid both ways than Carney, as are Niinimaa and Jonsson. I still would put Carney in over Jonsson if Hamrlik was less defensive minded, even by the littlest bit. It's the two-way presence that solidifies the Isles' d.

BTW, MLF, just to let you know, Baron isn't exactly too good. With Vancouver, I think he was #5 or 6 on the depth charts. I'd assume #6, with Allen at the time being #7.

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01-02-2004, 07:43 PM
  #53
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i believe that the ducks guy here (fighting for his life, btw) is correct in saying that carney could crack most top fours in the league.

st. louis - yes. first of all, i don't expect macinnis to play again. even with macinnis in the lineup he easily slides into the fourth slot behind pronger, macinnis, and jackman.

ottawa - yes. he slides in behind chara and redden ahead of phillips, rachunek, volchenkov, etc. ottawa's d is the second best in the league (behind the wings, imo) not necessarily in terms of top talent, but in terms of overall talent depth (positions 1 through 6) that only detroit can match.

new jersey - yes. easily ahead of colin white.

detroit - sketchy. they have the best d corps in the league. he could play a top four role on this team and not look out of place but he would have to be fighting for ice time on this squad, imo. could you imagine a d-corps with lidstrom, hatcher, schneider, fischer, chelios, and carney? in the end, i will say he wouldn't crack this top four.

islanders - sketchy. i really hope i don't sound like a homer here. carney could outplay one of the isles top four, but then again, they could outplay him, too. the problem with trying to slot him ahead of any of the isles top four is that they have one of the best top fours in the league, if not the second best (again behind detroit). the problem with the isles d is that they have virtually NOTHING behind these four to get too excited about. they don't have anywhere's near ottawa's depth for me to rank them ahead of the sens overall. however, the point from above was concerning carney's ability to break top fours. in the end, i will say he wouldn't crack this top four.

perhaps i overrate carney, too. but, at least its not because of any bias i might have.

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Old
01-02-2004, 07:45 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
No, but Carney is easily better defensively.
don't throw the word "easily" around so easily.

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Old
01-02-2004, 07:56 PM
  #55
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To DaleHunter: Washington absolutely stole the deal for Oates. Philly got a UFA Oates who had minimal impact on the team and was only there for 13 games. You got possibly the BEST goalie prospect in the game along with doubling your draft picks in the first three rounds. You weren't going into the playoffs, so Oates would just be playing a few pointless games for you. The fact he signed with Anaheim and not you has little to do with the trade. So assuming Oates would've signed somewhere else anyway, Washington lost a few pointless games of Oates (since there was no chance of the Caps getting into the playoffs) and gained a huge prospect and the chance of 3 others.

And thanks for the Baron info DFT, being an Eastern team, you don't see many St.Louis games played.

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01-02-2004, 08:42 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
yea... I'm a moron for thinking that Carney is a #4 dman... and you're saying he's a #2 on most teams in the NHL

been following hockey long??

In yo face! IN YO FACE!!!

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01-02-2004, 08:47 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
It's because of people like you that he's underrated. Fact is, I still can't believe all he cost us was a 2nd round pick(in one of the wierdest trades I've ever seen).

And one of the first you've seen I take it.

Add San Jose to that list. Stuart, Rathje, McLaren, and Hannan...no room for Carney there.

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01-02-2004, 08:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Patty Ice XXX
Add San Jose to that list. Stuart, Rathje, McLaren, and Hannan...no room for Carney there.
I wouldn't call San Jose a top defensive team, and Carney could definitely make it past Hannon.

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01-02-2004, 09:10 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple_Leafs_Forever
I wouldn't call San Jose a top defensive team, and Carney could definitely make it past Hannon.
Prolly past Hannon but definitely not past Hannan. He was the best Sharks defender for much of '03. I'll agree that Carney is underrated but theres quite a few teams top 4 he'd have trouble cracking.

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01-02-2004, 09:15 PM
  #60
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If HannAn is as good as you say he is, Carney's at least as good as McLaren if the guy plays the same as he did in B-Town.

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01-02-2004, 09:37 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
yea... I'm a moron for thinking that Carney is a #4 dman... and you're saying he's a #2 on most teams in the NHL

been following hockey long??
Yeah, I have been following it long.

Also, I didn't say he's a #2 on most teams. He's just a #2 d-man. He's been Anaheim's #1 for quite a while, and last I checked, without injuries, they're very solid.

Your basis of him being a #4 would make you a bit moronic. Mainly because Carney would likely be #3 on your own team, the Vancouver Canucks. Last year, he could've been around #2, as Ohlund didn't have the best of years. Now Ohlund's better, and Jovo's Jovo, but no one else for Vancouver on the blueline is better than Carney.


Quote:
And one of the first you've seen I take it.

Add San Jose to that list. Stuart, Rathje, McLaren, and Hannan...no room for Carney there.
The first weird trade I've seen? Well, it's only weird because it was Calgary's 2nd rounder we acquired, for Leopold, that we traded to Phoenix for Carney, and then Phoenix shipped it back to Calgary. That's the only reason it's weird.

As for San Jose, that was one of the most biased things(I'm taking it that you're a Sharks fan) that I've ever heard. Carney's better than Hannan, McLaren and Rathje, possibly Stuart if his production just declines and he doesn't develop(which likely won't happen). Don't even flatter yourself by claiming Carney's not better than those guys.

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01-02-2004, 09:53 PM
  #62
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BTW can we get this thread back on track. What does Toronto need to give up for a good defenseman.

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01-02-2004, 09:55 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
As for San Jose, that was one of the most biased things(I'm taking it that you're a Sharks fan) that I've ever heard. Carney's better than Hannan, McLaren and Rathje, possibly Stuart if his production just declines and he doesn't develop(which likely won't happen). Don't even flatter yourself by claiming Carney's not better than those guys.
IMO

Is Carney better than....
Stuart? No
Hannan? No
Rathje? debateable but I'll give Carney the edge
McLaren? Yes

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01-02-2004, 09:55 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
As for San Jose, that was one of the most biased things(I'm taking it that you're a Sharks fan) that I've ever heard. Carney's better than Hannan, McLaren and Rathje, possibly Stuart if his production just declines and he doesn't develop(which likely won't happen). Don't even flatter yourself by claiming Carney's not better than those guys.
Actually I wouldnt be flatterin myself but Stuart, Rathje, McLaren, and Hannan, no?

Kid, ya need to get over yourself...yes Carney is underrated but just because you consider him the Ducks no. 2 doesn't mean he's crackin damn near every team's top 4. Better than Rat? No, Rat is one of the top neutralizers in the game. Better than McLaren? Kyle has that Hatcher-like intimidation that very few possess (none are better than Derian himself tho) and is makin his mark finally in the Western Conference. Hannan? Hannan's upside is like Carney...a solid no.4 guy but Hannan is younger...so I'll take him. Better than Stuart? Don't make me laugh. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind Carney on my team but at the expense of any of those 4...I say no thanks. He's not an improvement over any of those guys.

I know the Ducks had their nice lil hot playoff streak riding their hot goaltender (more than the Sharks ever done) but dont confuse the Ducks with an elite team. At best, they can contend for a playoff spot. Carney is good but he is no where near no. 2 good.

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01-02-2004, 10:03 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islandermaniac
i believe that the ducks guy here (fighting for his life, btw) is correct in saying that carney could crack most top fours in the league.

st. louis - yes. first of all, i don't expect macinnis to play again. even with macinnis in the lineup he easily slides into the fourth slot behind pronger, macinnis, and jackman.

ottawa - yes. he slides in behind chara and redden ahead of phillips, rachunek, volchenkov, etc. ottawa's d is the second best in the league (behind the wings, imo) not necessarily in terms of top talent, but in terms of overall talent depth (positions 1 through 6) that only detroit can match.

new jersey - yes. easily ahead of colin white.

detroit - sketchy. they have the best d corps in the league. he could play a top four role on this team and not look out of place but he would have to be fighting for ice time on this squad, imo. could you imagine a d-corps with lidstrom, hatcher, schneider, fischer, chelios, and carney? in the end, i will say he wouldn't crack this top four.

islanders - sketchy. i really hope i don't sound like a homer here. carney could outplay one of the isles top four, but then again, they could outplay him, too. the problem with trying to slot him ahead of any of the isles top four is that they have one of the best top fours in the league, if not the second best (again behind detroit). the problem with the isles d is that they have virtually NOTHING behind these four to get too excited about. they don't have anywhere's near ottawa's depth for me to rank them ahead of the sens overall. however, the point from above was concerning carney's ability to break top fours. in the end, i will say he wouldn't crack this top four.

perhaps i overrate carney, too. but, at least its not because of any bias i might have.

I can't agree. Carney does not crackthe top four on the SENS. No way he is better than than phillips, rachunek, volchenkov.

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01-02-2004, 10:23 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I can't agree. Carney does not crackthe top four on the SENS. No way he is better than than phillips, rachunek, volchenkov.
I'm sure there are 30 GMs who would disagree. You would be kidding yourself if you think Philips, Rachunek, and Volchenkov are better players than Carney.

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01-02-2004, 11:15 PM
  #67
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Carney better then Zhitnik?Riggggggght.


Carney's offense doesn't come close to Z's and is unable to log as much time and Zhitnik.Zhitnik has been solid this year, and I think he could fetch a team like Toronto's first rounder if Ferguson think Zhitnik puts them over the top.He's no gonchar, but he's definitely worth more then a 2nd.

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01-03-2004, 06:28 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sir Ozzie X
Second rounder for Sydor. Deal could be expanded if the Leafs wanted someone like Sanderson or Cassels to help the depth for the playoffs.
Columbus got Sydor in a salary dump for a 2nd and Sillinger. I think they can (and would) do better than a 2nd in return if they trade Sydor.

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01-03-2004, 07:07 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
I'm sure there are 30 GMs who would disagree. You would be kidding yourself if you think Philips, Rachunek, and Volchenkov are better players than Carney.
Yeah, 30 GM's like him so much they wouldnt pony up any more than a 2nd rounder for him.
And yes, those 3 Sens are much, much better than Carney.

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01-03-2004, 12:34 PM
  #70
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I'm convinced... Carney is now overrated IMO!!!

He's a solid #4 dman... never thought of him as a bad dman at all... but he's not a #2 in any way...

when you mention Vancouver, Ohlund is MILES ahead of Carney... he's playing better this season, but not by a huge amount - he's just getting more recognition... Ohlund is overall a better dman right now than Jovo is (although Jovo does have more upside) and has been better and our actual #1 dman every year till now...

Carney would be a top 4 on our team, but wouldn't be ahead of Jovo or Ohlund... it's also very doubtful he plays ahead of Sopel in the rotation for the sheer fact that Sopel and Ohlund click so well that they won't be split up, with those two playing on the top pairing (they've played together now for 3 straight years)...

so then Carney plays on the #2 pairing with Jovo - that is if he's a left side dman, since Jovo has to play the right side.... if not that Carney finds himself on another pairing.

these "intangibles" are part of reality in hockey... Salo is currently our 3rd best dman, but Sopel plays a higher role that him just because of the matchup he has with Ohlund, and the fact that Salo, like Jovo are both right side dmen (they tried to move Jovo to the left side when Salo was first acquired, but the experiment failed in training camp).

Carney is solid - but whether he plays on the top 4 of another team depends on the makeup of that particular team... you just don't insert a player where you feel he fits, without taking other factors into account!

on the Isles, I don't know if he does fit the top 4 - but IMO Jonnson is a much more underrated player than Carney is.

On the Sens, I don't see how he's playing ahead of Redden, Chara, Phillips or Rachunek (didn't mention Volcenkov cause he is injured right now, and is still only in his 2nd season)....

On the Wings, he's behind Lidstrom, Hatcher and Schnedier... likely Fischer (who's having a solid season) and Chelios because again of the matchups.

On the Avs, do you play Carney ahead of Blake, Foote or Morris??

bottom line - he's solid, not an allstar, and with the teams in the league that have 1 or 2 allstar types already in their lineup, Carney falls down the depth chart... when you match up other factors and intangibles, or where he plays, his style of play, etc... on 5 on 5 play he could fall further down the depth chart...

on the Canucks, he'd be our #2 PK dman (behind Ohlund, but ahead of all others)... wouldn't get any PP icetime (Jovo, Sopel, Salo, Ohlund in that order are our PP dmen)... and wouldn't find himself on the top 2 units (because of the Ohlund-Sopel match up, and because he plays the right side like Jovo, so wouldn't partner with him).... like Salo (who's our #3) he'd be higher on the depth chart (possibly even #3) without being one of our top 4 dmen in the rotation.

but since you've indicated you've followed hockey for a long time, I'm sure you already realize all this!

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01-03-2004, 07:00 PM
  #71
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I'd like to chip in that he doesn't even make the Leafs top 3 with Klee playing the way he is. He also wouldn't get put in the top four pairings as well because Berg and Klee go so well together. The Ducks have a good defense because they play the trap, not because they have amazing defensemen.

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01-03-2004, 07:35 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
Yeah, 30 GM's like him so much they wouldnt pony up any more than a 2nd rounder for him.
And yes, those 3 Sens are much, much better than Carney.



Exactly. Well said.

SENS are ridiculoulsy deep on defense, and their #5 guy could play on the top paring of many teams.

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01-03-2004, 08:08 PM
  #73
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There's times when I miss the roll-eyes smilie

The way I see Carney on the Ducks is he is one of those players who are more valuable to the Ducks then he would be on the open market. For Anaheim, he is a rock on defense, he is the cornerstone of what the Ducks rode to the finals in the playoffs. When Carney is injured or out of the lineup, the Ducks are very bad defensively.
That being said, Carney is not comparable in the NHL with players like Zhitnik or Leetch. But also, the Ducks aren't likely to get rid of Keith Carney. He has another year in his contract after this season is up, I believe. And the Ducks would be foolish to trade such an important cog when they are half geared for a win-in the semi-close future sort of attitude.
I agree, comparing Carney to a lot of the players mentioned here is laughable. But I believe what the Ducks fans are trying to say is that's how valuable he is to Anaheim and that's why he would be hard to move out. Sure, he was acquired for a 2nd rounder, but it would be very foolish to assume he could be pryed out of Orange County for anything similar to that.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion....

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01-03-2004, 09:10 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forbesy
There's times when I miss the roll-eyes smilie

The way I see Carney on the Ducks is he is one of those players who are more valuable to the Ducks then he would be on the open market. For Anaheim, he is a rock on defense, he is the cornerstone of what the Ducks rode to the finals in the playoffs. When Carney is injured or out of the lineup, the Ducks are very bad defensively.
That being said, Carney is not comparable in the NHL with players like Zhitnik or Leetch. But also, the Ducks aren't likely to get rid of Keith Carney. He has another year in his contract after this season is up, I believe. And the Ducks would be foolish to trade such an important cog when they are half geared for a win-in the semi-close future sort of attitude.
I agree, comparing Carney to a lot of the players mentioned here is laughable. But I believe what the Ducks fans are trying to say is that's how valuable he is to Anaheim and that's why he would be hard to move out. Sure, he was acquired for a 2nd rounder, but it would be very foolish to assume he could be pryed out of Orange County for anything similar to that.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion....

Typical Forbesy post. Balanced and thoughtful, and cuts right through the BS and gest to the heart of the matter.

I agree with every word your wrote and you make a ton of sense.

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01-03-2004, 09:19 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forbesy
There's times when I miss the roll-eyes smilie

The way I see Carney on the Ducks is he is one of those players who are more valuable to the Ducks then he would be on the open market. For Anaheim, he is a rock on defense, he is the cornerstone of what the Ducks rode to the finals in the playoffs. When Carney is injured or out of the lineup, the Ducks are very bad defensively.
That being said, Carney is not comparable in the NHL with players like Zhitnik or Leetch. But also, the Ducks aren't likely to get rid of Keith Carney. He has another year in his contract after this season is up, I believe. And the Ducks would be foolish to trade such an important cog when they are half geared for a win-in the semi-close future sort of attitude.
I agree, comparing Carney to a lot of the players mentioned here is laughable. But I believe what the Ducks fans are trying to say is that's how valuable he is to Anaheim and that's why he would be hard to move out. Sure, he was acquired for a 2nd rounder, but it would be very foolish to assume he could be pryed out of Orange County for anything similar to that.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion....
This is the logical argument I expected from one defending Carney. He's a big part of the Ducks defense and I don't see the Ducks startin a rebuild anytime soon. The guy is the rock that holds the defense together in Anaheim. Carney is what he is...a good reliable defenseman, not exactly a top blueliner but a guy that you win with.

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