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Old
07-18-2007, 10:41 AM
  #176
mabus
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Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
Can't it be said that the coach used Souray to perfection. That he was good with young players like Halak. That he recognized Streit's utility player potential. That he made Plekanec flourish. That he got Higgins and Koivu firing on all cylinders?
You're clutching a straw man, let me say this again more clearly, no one is saying Carbonneau did nothing right ... no one is saying he is incompetent. We're simply pointing out that he did a lot of things wrong. But since you asked whether he did certain things right, let me address that, Carbonneau was great with young players. He played Sourray perfectly. He did a great job with Streit and helped Plekanec and Higgins shine.

Along with all those great things, he needs to learn not to play musical chairs with the lines and give players like Samsonov and Kovalev time to gel with a center. He also needs to stop playing goal scorers like Kovalev on the fourth line.

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As I said before, Carbonneau was no genius, but, imo, so far, he's been better than Julien and Therrien.
If you're going to do drugs the least you can do is offer us some

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07-18-2007, 10:49 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
You're clutching a straw man, let me say this again more clearly, no one is saying Carbonneau did nothing right ... no one is saying he is incompetent. We're simply pointing out that he did a lot of things wrong. But since you asked whether he did certain things right, let me address that, Carbonneau was great with young players. He played Sourray perfectly. He did a great job with Streit and helped Plekanec and Higgins shine. :
Stop telling me what people in this thread are saying or not saying. I can read. In this very thread it was written black on white (or blue or whatever hell colour this site uses) that Carbonneau was incompetent and that he has shown very little promise for the future.

In addition, I recognize the things he did wrong and have repeated them many times. On 100%, I give Carbonneau a 65% grade. Passable but mediocre.

What irks me is putting the blame on his shoulders and giving Gainey and the players a free pass.

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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Along with all those great things, he needs to learn not to play musical chairs with the lines and give players like Samsonov and Kovalev time to gel with a center. He also needs to stop playing goal scorers like Kovalev on the fourth line.
:
So you want him to stop playing musical chairs with the lines while Yukoner wants him to stop being so patient with the lines.

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07-18-2007, 10:51 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I don't think Carbo asked Sammy to get the puck in the corner, work his way to the high slot then lose the puck, sending the opponent down to our end with big smiles on their faces. He didn't ask him to botch outlet passes while standing timidly at the blueline.

I think you highly overate the personel on the team. If they were as good as you believe, then Carbo shoulders more blame, I think the team had flaws and it became more apparent as the year wore on. A suspect d core. No real stud up front who the offesne revolves around, lack of grit. I suspect that some players weren't told not to forecheck but might have been reluctant to do so. The team had a checking line that was effective but very passive. Of the top 6 that you speak of, Kovalev and Ryder had scored 30 in the league. I'm a big fan of both Koivu and Higgins, but no one's confusing their play with Lemaire Lafleaur just yet. The team had some offensive talent but no ppg guys, or rather no one who has shown over a career that you could expect that from them.

In late January, benching a player was hardly an option. Who was stepping up to take up more space ?
you too can't resist to single out samsonov. sammy's overall play was decent given the minimal minutes he was allowed.

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07-18-2007, 11:09 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
On 100%, I give Carbonneau a 65% grade. Passable but mediocre.

What irks me is putting the blame on his shoulders and giving Gainey and the players a free pass.
I'd completely agree with you here. I think Gainey has been disappointing thusfar.

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07-18-2007, 11:11 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
To sum it up, we were winning early on in the season because we have a good offensive and defensive team. We have balance and skill. We floundered in the second half of the season due to poor coaching.
Well said man, well said.

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07-18-2007, 11:25 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
"Carbo has not shown me he's capable of being anywhere near an NHL calibre coach." - yukoner
I stand by that statement. What has he proven? There's still a big "?" with regards to his skill as a coach.

I didn't called him incompetent though, so learn how to read.

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Hmm. I think you mean he has never been an NHL head coach before, as you stated above. Just out of curiosity... have you ever been an NHL head coach before? Or a coach at any level?
No, I mean a head coach, ever, anywhere. He has literally NO experience at the job.

Yet, you guys continue to argue that most coaches in teh league woudn't have done any better, despite Carbo never having done this before in his life.

Ridiculous argument really.

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07-18-2007, 12:20 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by habn8r View Post
you too can't resist to single out samsonov. sammy's overall play was decent given the minimal minutes he was allowed.
I can resist, I just chose not to. I made excuses for him until he decided to point the finger rather than look in the mirror.

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07-18-2007, 01:39 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Well thank God you're here to tell us that!

I've been reading a couple of your enlightening posts and must say your eloquence goes hand-in-hand with your nickname.

You have convinced me! I had never thought about it this way but I am now 100% certain that with another coach, this team WOULD have made the playoffs. I was deluded into thinking hockey was a lot more complicated than that.

Heck, if we had a good coach, I'll go as far as to say anything but the Stanley Cup would have been "ludacris".

It also really makes sense to compare Carbonneau to a manager. It's probably dumb on my part, but I always thought that was Gainey's role. Now I know better, thanks to you Kriss! Represent, man!



****in' A! Teach us, brother. Cuz I wanna be informed!

Thats you're answer??...wow..all you do is try to make fun of my post..God Job buddy!!

And what is so wrong with my Name???...Kriss my first name and E the abreviation of my last name...What???..
You make fun of my name yet yours is Vlad The Impaler??...how old are you??

I thought you were smart enough to be able to think and understand a post instead of just reading through it..just so you can attack it..with nothing btw!..

I cant believe how hard it is for you to acknowledge all the mistakes any veteran coach would not have done..
Carbo comes into the season with a Plan...great..he tries to implement his system...it doesnt really work right fromt the start but we're still able to steal plenty of games..mostly thx to our great goaltending...so his system..to a lot of people eyes..like yourself im sure...seemed to be just great..when it wasnt and started showing as soon as our goaltending started to worsen

Im really starting to wonder about your hockey knowledge..cuz it seems every time someone said there was a problem with the system..you asked them to explain what was wrong with it in details..So im guessing you didnt see anything wrong with it..and that makes me wonder why im even responding to your idiotic post


You further on keep backing up the fact that you know absolutly nothing when you say it is Gainey's job...
Gainey's job is to BUILD the team..not LEAD the team..
Hell..why dont you say its Gillett's job..he's the one with the ultimate power and could fire anybody or everybody tomorrow..

Gainey's job is to bring in players that will fit on our team..
CArbo's job is to lead that group of players to the Playoffs and Cup
If you still cant tell the difference between Carbo and Gainey's job..then you are clueless

And the comparaison to a business manager was made for your simple mind and even that was too complicated for it..
I can give you other comparaisons...but you'll probably just want to make fun of it cuz your head has no reason in it

Bottom line is Carbo did a horrible job..
-Implementing a defensive system on one of the worst defensive team in the league
-Half a season to realise Kovy-Sammy-Plek didnt work well togheter
-Misusing Sammy and then bluntly blaming him in the media for it
-Creating a disturbance more than anything when talking about his players to the Media
-Never being able to call a Timeout(wonder if he even know those exists)
-Having no flexibility for his line changes
-Putting a cold goalie str8 out of an injury in nets for the biggest game of the year instead of keeping the young hot goalie that brought you there
-Scratching Samsonov when he actually started playing well with Bonk and Johnson
-Benching Kovalev..Perez..Rivet..Sammy..when the rest of the team deserves to be benched just as much..when your whole team isnt performing..you dont choose a few and make an example out of them..you show favoritism..and start losing players in the room..that dont want to play for you anymore
-not be able to communicate to his players(even he said that)
-Chosing a rookie assistant coach(1year as coach in OUA) to help him..a rookie coach as well

ANd the list goes on and on..and if we were able to fire Julien..Therrien..Vigneault for their mishaps...that werent even worst then Carbo's..then i dont see why Carbo would get a free pass

Our team was better than the previous year..i think we can all agree on that..and we made it in..i doubt there was 9teams in the East that were better than us last year..so bottom line..with a good coach and the same team..chances are we would have made it

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Old
07-18-2007, 01:48 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by cwbank View Post
well a coachs job is to get the most out of his players. Right or wrong he got less from Samsanov, Kovalev,Perezahogin,Johnson, and likely irked the entire team at some point. Did anybody feel last year we might be better off with first place coach Julian or Vineault. How about former coach Therrian or Lemaire. Not sure Carbo is the man. any thoughts.
Carbo is neither a hero, nor a zero: just a rookie NHL coach.

I thought he would better prepared for the job after having spend some time as an assistant with Therrien and Gainey. I am a bit disappointed. Especially by his "lack of communication" with some of his key players.

Carbo (and Muller, Gainey, Jarvis) all all parts of a great winning tradition. They know what it takes to win, but seem unable to communicate it (fire up) their players. I think that they don't have the horses yet to play that brand of hockey (that they all like: defence first and strong forechecking).

Carbo must stay. Enough of the one-year coach carousel behind the bench. So far, the impatience costs the Habs 3 professional coaches - Vigneault, Julien and Therrien.

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Old
07-18-2007, 02:00 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I can resist, I just chose not to. I made excuses for him until he decided to point the finger rather than look in the mirror.
there was nothing wrong with samsonov defending himself. specificaly when carbo would not speak a word to him. i don't blame him at all for wanting a fresh start. for all that was said his teamates still liked him.

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Old
07-18-2007, 02:05 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Having read through this entire thread I have to agree with Yukoner's assessment and the majority of your replies made no sense other than to engage in a pissing contest.
If it makes you feel better to ascribe motives to me because you don't agree, go ahead. But you'd be wrong. I've just been explaining the way I see things. I certainly am not going to pretend you or yukoner are replying to me simply because you wanna participate in a pissing contest. I think you two really believe the stuff you say and you are entitled to your opinions.

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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Koivu and Ryder EARNED the right to underperform at times and play without consequence and Sammy and Perez didn't? What kind of stupidity is that?
I'm kind of surprised (again) at the strong resistance against this. What is so difficult to comprehend? Koivu has a history as the best Hab forward for something like a decade. He's not going to be judged by the same standards as other players and that's a damn good thing. Ryder is a proven goalscorer for this team, something the Habs are starving for.

Samsonov is a mercenary who was brought in with high dollars. He's going to be on a slightly shorter leash. Perez is a complete non-factor and other than a few people, nobody actually cares about this guy, who has been overrated for years on this board.

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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Ryder played the first line all season, if you put Perez there he may have done as well offensively and not been such a liability the other way.
You believe Perez could have posted Ryder-numbers while playing better two-way hockey? Have we been watching the same player?

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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Kovy didn't EARN the right to be on the first line because he's slow but Johnson, Streit and in particualr Lats did?
Hang on a second. Kovy's issue has nothing to do with speed but rather with his complete and utter lack of effort and involvement. Johnson, Streit and Latendresse were stop-gap measures. Of those, Latendresse would make sense as he brings many of the qualities needed for such a line with his grit and size. Think of it as schooling for the future.

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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Instead he played him in the 4th line with such greats as Lats and Lapierre and expected him to perform. When he didn't it was Kovy who couldn't make the players around him better when everybody agrees that Kovy is a comlimentary player. Bowman said Kovy is a great complimentary player and we saw that when he played with Koivu but somehow he couldn't get a single game with Koivu out of 82. Great coaching decision.
Kovalev was lethargic. Putting him there makes sense because:

A: He needed to work more to get better icetime
B: These two guys brought a lot of energy, so there was a chance they might wake him up

It didn't work. Kovalev simply didn't care except in rare occasions where he actually played better. Could something different have been tried? Yeah. Would it have worked? I don't know, but Kovalev was put in all sorts of situations and didn't respond.

I'll say it again: his performance this past season was abyssmal! At what point in time will you hold this guy responsible exactly? When he completely stops skating and stands near the faceoff circle? How do you promote such a guy to top minutes? In fact, he didn't even deserve his PP time.

So Scotty Bowman thinks Kovalev is a great complementary player? And?

Scotty Bowman was the first to use manipulation mindgames with his player. If you think Scotty Bowman never put skilled players with 4th line pluggers, you are dearly mistaken.

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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
You are arguing that Carbo is not the cause but he is.
It seems that in this thread, several people are under the impression that I think Carbo is without blame, or a wonderful coach, or whatever. That's not the case. I'm just saying he's one guy. I'm not ready to give all the credit or blame on a single person in a hockey game, ever. I don't believe in absolutism or oversimplification. It just doesn't work that way.

I am arguing in this thread that Carbonneau was just part of a losing team last season. A team that didn't make it. I think the Habs could have made the playoffs. They were a borderline team. They didn't, for a variety of reasons. Carbo and every player on this team deserves part of the blame. Some probably more than others.

Personally, I don't think Carbo is remotely near being the worse culprit.


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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Defense my ass...with all the skills some of our forwards are capable of they should be allowed to score goals.
1-They are allowed to score goals

2-What's "all the skills" you are refering to? This was a fairly non-threatening group of forwards. Again, maybe you are expecting too much.

Why is it that every time a team doesn't score in Montreal, it's the coach's fault? When are people going to wake up and realize that when a franchise's top forward is "God" Koivu, surrounded with a mediocre support crew, that team is in trouble offensively?

The Habs cannot win on offense with the players they dress yearly. If this team wants to ice an offense dynamo, they need to draft offensively gifted players and trade for offensively gifted players. And no, not just one guy (Kovalev) but several.

Otherwise, they need to play smart two-way hockey. Regardless, each strategy can work. The Habs were able to win hockey games and make the playoffs with conservative teams in the past.

Anyway, as I have been saying, they aren't nearly as conservative as some of you people are making it to be.

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07-18-2007, 02:06 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Thats you're answer??...wow..all you do is try to make fun of my post..God Job buddy!!

And what is so wrong with my Name???...Kriss my first name and E the abreviation of my last name...What???..
You make fun of my name yet yours is Vlad The Impaler??...how old are you??

I thought you were smart enough to be able to think and understand a post instead of just reading through it..just so you can attack it..with nothing btw!..

I cant believe how hard it is for you to acknowledge all the mistakes any veteran coach would not have done..
Carbo comes into the season with a Plan...great..he tries to implement his system...it doesnt really work right fromt the start but we're still able to steal plenty of games..mostly thx to our great goaltending...so his system..to a lot of people eyes..like yourself im sure...seemed to be just great..when it wasnt and started showing as soon as our goaltending started to worsen

Im really starting to wonder about your hockey knowledge..cuz it seems every time someone said there was a problem with the system..you asked them to explain what was wrong with it in details..So im guessing you didnt see anything wrong with it..and that makes me wonder why im even responding to your idiotic post


You further on keep backing up the fact that you know absolutly nothing when you say it is Gainey's job...
Gainey's job is to BUILD the team..not LEAD the team..
Hell..why dont you say its Gillett's job..he's the one with the ultimate power and could fire anybody or everybody tomorrow..

Gainey's job is to bring in players that will fit on our team..
CArbo's job is to lead that group of players to the Playoffs and Cup
If you still cant tell the difference between Carbo and Gainey's job..then you are clueless

And the comparaison to a business manager was made for your simple mind and even that was too complicated for it..
I can give you other comparaisons...but you'll probably just want to make fun of it cuz your head has no reason in it

Bottom line is Carbo did a horrible job..
-Implementing a defensive system on one of the worst defensive team in the league
-Half a season to realise Kovy-Sammy-Plek didnt work well togheter
-Misusing Sammy and then bluntly blaming him in the media for it
-Creating a disturbance more than anything when talking about his players to the Media
-Never being able to call a Timeout(wonder if he even know those exists)
-Having no flexibility for his line changes
-Putting a cold goalie str8 out of an injury in nets for the biggest game of the year instead of keeping the young hot goalie that brought you there
-Scratching Samsonov when he actually started playing well with Bonk and Johnson
-Benching Kovalev..Perez..Rivet..Sammy..when the rest of the team deserves to be benched just as much..when your whole team isnt performing..you dont choose a few and make an example out of them..you show favoritism..and start losing players in the room..that dont want to play for you anymore
-not be able to communicate to his players(even he said that)
-Chosing a rookie assistant coach(1year as coach in OUA) to help him..a rookie coach as well

ANd the list goes on and on..and if we were able to fire Julien..Therrien..Vigneault for their mishaps...that werent even worst then Carbo's..then i dont see why Carbo would get a free pass

Our team was better than the previous year..i think we can all agree on that..and we made it in..i doubt there was 9teams in the East that were better than us last year..so bottom line..with a good coach and the same team..chances are we would have made it
Kriss,E

You're replying to Vlad as I didn't respond to your original post. I didn't because frankly, the whole, 'give your head a shake if you don't agree with me' attitude gets old. There's been good points pro and con throughout the thread, remarkably civil in fact. Mainly from those who don't need to ridicule those with different opinions.

A few points, we didn't fire Julien,Therrien or Vigneault, their boss did. Bob Gainey selected Carbo to be his coach. It may or may not work out, but Gainey will live or die with that one. A GM will often go down with a poor coaching choice, but it's his to make. Don't underestimate the man's patience. Both men don't need these jobs, they want these jobs, and both would walk out the front door with heads held high.

Some of your points.

-Did Carbo lose the room by benching Kovalev and Samsonov ? I don't know. You can argue that both players lost the respect of their teammates by their reactions. Sammy went to the press before GC said a word about him. Samsonov quit on plays in a particular game in Atlanta, just quit on them. When he got benched for it, he whined. It was over at that point. Higgins spoke publically about the enigma that is Kovalev. I don't think players are begging to be on his line. Plekanec was pretty obvious in his disdain for playing with him, imo.

-Please tell me what system was implemented that didn't suit the players. I don't see where the shackles are. Refer to lack of knowledge if you like but tell me where Carbo limits offense.

-Muller was chosen to be the primary contact with the players. Often you need a personable asst. coach as there's a buffer zone to the head coach. Jarvis' presence made this possible, though frankly, I'd like to see a slightly different coaching structure.

- As to line combos, I have some opinion as to the why's and the when's, but they sound like excuses and I don't 'know' why some lines were kept intact.

-The goalie in g82 ? My choice was Halak, but I wasn't sure whether it was fair to Halak, esp. after a tough game in NY. I don't remember reading much noise about it before the game, so it's a coin flip imo. No penalty to Koivu,maybe Mtl wins and we never talk about this.


I agree with AymanD. Carbo did plenty wrong, no more or less than Gainey, and about a dozen players on the team.

It seems you don't want discussion, you want everyone to adopt your opinion.

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07-18-2007, 02:07 PM
  #188
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Right now he's a zero... or a below zero. Next year will be very telling but I feel it'll be more of the same crap with Carbo.

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07-18-2007, 02:11 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by habn8r View Post
there was nothing wrong with samsonov defending himself. specificaly when carbo would not speak a word to him. i don't blame him at all for wanting a fresh start. for all that was said his teamates still liked him.
but he stared talking after game 7. If it's March and you feel that you can't win despite your best efforts and you react out of frustration, well, ok. But October ?

AS for not speaking a word to him, well there's a few things that could mean. It could mean he was never pulled aside and had a heart to heart with, or it could mean that Carbo ignored him. I'd supect that Carbo didn't chat much, something he's admitted as a fault, or weakness.

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07-18-2007, 02:34 PM
  #190
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
If it wouldn't have resulted in more points, maybe it would have resulted in less bruised egos, better morale and also more opportunities for young players to develop their potential offensively and build confidence in their offensive abilities.
Hey E! Always a pleasure reading you, man!

Personally, I must say this was one of the best year for rookies and young players so I disagree.

I think there has been a real conscious effort to go forward and mold this team over the long term, not just what will work in a single season. Efforts are being rewarded. Young players are slowly worked in the system. Some weeding is also taking place with players who have/had a doubtful future with this organization.

I thought there were lots of positives in the cases of Plekanec, Higgins, Latendresse, Kostitsyn and Lapierre. People who grow impatient and wish Kost had been used consistently on a scoring line because of the flashes of skills he showed should also recognize he perfected that same game in the AHL, sometimes not even being a top 6 forward.

These things take time but it's definitly being handled better than the previous crop (Hossa, Hainsey, etc..) IMO.

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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Personally I hated the way Carbonneau started using the medias to pass his messages around december when the team started not doing so well anymore. No matter what he did as a player and how much he loves the habs and I don't doubt that for a moment.. I don't think he had the credibility with certain veterans to pull that off. I'm sure he was hoping for better reactions. He was hoping to lit a fire under the ass of his troops but I think he misjudged a lot of the players he tried his mind games on. Most notably veterans like Samsonov, Kovalev and Rivet.

Psychology 101, motivation and communication didn't appear to be his forte which is fine if you're making up for it in other areas but I am hard pressed to find areas where he excelled, altough maybe he did and I never noticed.
It was a bit awkward at times. Personally, I fail to see how much more credibility a guy could have. There's the lack of experience that is an issue, I guess. But other than that, this guy has done it all and has a background most players should be able to relate to.

I suppose his bluntness might be question. I truly believe this is aesthetical concerns. Some of my favorite coaches include Scotty Bowman, Jacques Demers and John Tortorella and they all come from vastly different backgrounds and used drastically different approaches.

If there was a problem with Carbo's coaching, it went far beyond the surface. It was the message itself or its timing. Not the way it was formulated.

Of course, in hindsight, he could have done better. No argument there. My main point here is: so could have some players and the GM. There was no miracle to expect from this crew.

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07-18-2007, 02:48 PM
  #191
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Well Mister McPhee..
I actually do respect other people's opinions...but i am a strong-opinion minded person..and maybe thats why i come across as ''agressive''..but hey..what do you want..thats just the way i am
If some take it bad..well thats too bad..

And note that its not like everyone here is nice and peacefull...calm and collected...and im the madman raging...lets not push it ok..
Some answer differently..but make fun of posts just as much as i do..

As to our system...Yukoner explained it again and again in the past 5pages...and i couldnt have said it better..so..you can go back and read..
And like you say..Maybe Kovalev and Sammy lost the respect from their teammates..and maybe thats true..but it doesnt mean Carbo didnt lose any respect from his team as well...and i think Carbo lost more of the team by coaching Rivet then Kovalev or Sammy..
Koivu also admitted he didnt see eye to eye with Carbo.

Im not dissing Muller..im just saying..you're a rookie coach...maybe a veteran assistant coach would be a better idea than another none exp one..dont you think?..

As for the last game..maybe you dont remember..but i do..it was THE debate..Halak or Huet?..people were wondering until game time..and my pic was also Halak...does that mean we would have won that game?..we'll never know..
But he should have known that putting in a cold goalie coming out of a groin injury is a bad move...to him it seemed like the most logical one..for some reason...

And i also agree..Carbo did bad..so did Gainey(but he lost his daughter..so..we can cut him some slack)..and so did a bunch of players..
Nobody is denying that

But when a team starts with such a great begining like we did...and then just goes straight into a 3-4months horrible slump...im gonna question management more than the players

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07-18-2007, 02:52 PM
  #192
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And also..we did fire Julien last year..

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Old
07-18-2007, 03:35 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Vlad
I'm kind of surprised (again) at the strong resistance against this. What is so difficult to comprehend? Koivu has a history as the best Hab forward for something like a decade. He's not going to be judged by the same standards as other players and that's a damn good thing. Ryder is a proven goalscorer for this team, something the Habs are starving for.

Samsonov is a mercenary who was brought in with high dollars. He's going to be on a slightly shorter leash. Perez is a complete non-factor and other than a few people, nobody actually cares about this guy, who has been overrated for years on this board.
This is absolute nonsense.

Samsonov is an 8 year proven NHL veteran. Ryder has played only 3 years in the NHL.

If anyone deserves a little extra breathing room it's the veteran free agent who is still getting acclimated to the team.

Instead Carbo has him practicing on Line 4...less than 2 weeks into the year. WHich in turn causes the MTL media to blow it up intoa huge story...just the first in a long series of stupid rookie mistakes from Carbo that lasted all year long.

In the end, our only real disagreement is about HOW crappy Carbo coached. You say he was kinda crappy, I say he was horrible.

Since imo he was so horrible, I feel he was the main reason we missed the playoffs. If I felt he had performed adequately, or even a little below-average I would agree with you, but I felt he was much worse than below average, he was downright brutal.


Last edited by yukoner: 07-18-2007 at 03:43 PM.
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07-18-2007, 03:59 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukoner View Post
This is absolute nonsense.

Samsonov is an 8 year proven NHL veteran. Ryder has played only 3 years in the NHL.

If anyone deserves a little extra breathing room it's the veteran free agent who is still getting acclimated to the team.

Instead Carbo has him practicing on Line 4...less than 2 weeks into the year. WHich in turn causes the MTL media to blow it up intoa huge story...just the first in a long series of stupid rookie mistakes from Carbo that lasted all year long.
No way. Mercenary veteran free agents with 8 years of experience and fat new contracts are and should be expected to come in, do what they've been asked, and do it from game 1 onward. Samsonsov was sent a message *in practice* and then whines to his agent about it, making it a public issue all by himself.

You can blame Carbo for not communicating effectively to Samsonov what his role is and what the team expects of him, but to say he deserves more leeway than Ryder doesn't seem sensible.

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07-18-2007, 04:03 PM
  #195
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Also this thread's gone on long enough without the following OT post:

(this should need no introduction...)

Accept the fact that you're second rate, life is easy for you
It's all served up on a gold plated plate
and we don't even have to talk to you
Your face is normal, that's the way you're bred
and that's the way you're going to stay
Your head is firmly nailed to your TV channel
But someone else's finger's on the control panel

What you gonna be, what you gonna be brother
Zero the Hero
Don't you wanna be, don't you wanna be brother
Zero the Hero
When you gonna be, when you gonna be brother
Zero the Hero
Impossibility impissibolity mother
We'll need a Hero

You sit there watch it all burn down
it's easy and breezy for you
You play your life to a different sound
No edge no edge you got no knife have you
Your life is a six-lane highway to nowhere
You're going so fast you're never ever gonna get down there
Where the heroes sit by the river
with a magic in their music as they eat raw liver

What you gonna be, what you gonna be brother
Zero the Hero
Don't you wanna be, don't you wanna be brother
Zero the Hero
When you gonna be, when you gonna be brother
Zero the Hero
Impossibility impissibolity mother
We'll need a Hero

You stand there captain and we all look, you really are mediocre
You are the champion in the Acme form book
But I think you're just a joker
Your facedown life ain't so much of a pity
But the luv-a-duckin' way you're walkin' around the city
with your balls and your head full of nothing
it's easy for you sucker but you really need stuffing

What you gonna be, what you gonna be brother
Zero the Hero
Don't you wanna be, don't you wanna be brother
Zero the Hero
When you gonna be, when you gonna be brother
Zero the Hero
Impossibility impissibolity mother
We'll need a Hero


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07-18-2007, 04:08 PM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukoner View Post
This is absolute nonsense.

Samsonov is an 8 year proven NHL veteran. Ryder has played only 3 years in the NHL.

If anyone deserves a little extra breathing room it's the veteran free agent who is still getting acclimated to the team.
Sammy is a veteran of questionnable character. Even back in his Boston days he used to take too much time off and be way too frisky. We're not talking about Steve Yzerman here.

Ryder is a proven Hab and he serves his purpose well here. I don't care if you think it doesn't make sense. The disparity of treatment between players is absolutely not exceptional. You might not think it is the right call, but plenty of coaches (including winners) use those exact same methods.

There are proven combinations that work. Like Ryder-Koivu. Then there is a guy who brings much the same as other Habs forward. A smallish guy with some offense in him and a crappy attitude.

They tested what he was made of and he didn't respond. Which, BTW, Ryder has had to gone through in his career. Nothing exceptional there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yukoner View Post
In the end, our only real disagreement is about HOW crappy Carbo coached. You say he was kinda crappy, I say he was horrible.

Since imo he was so horrible, I feel he was the main reason we missed the playoffs. If I felt he had performed adequately, or even a little below-average I would agree with you, but I felt he was much worse than below average, he was downright brutal.
I didn't think he was crappy. This is a very difficult job at an elite level. I think he was ok. Definitly not great butoverall, I felt he belonged as a head coach and I am confident he can do a lot better.

Our two real disagreements, IMO, are as follow:

1-Carbo's performance as a coach. You think he's brutal. I think he was fine.

2-Our respective assessments how much this affects actual team performances.

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07-18-2007, 04:17 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
No way. Mercenary veteran free agents with 8 years of experience and fat new contracts are and should be expected to come in, do what they've been asked, and do it from game 1 onward. Samsonsov was sent a message *in practice* and then whines to his agent about it, making it a public issue all by himself.

You can blame Carbo for not communicating effectively to Samsonov what his role is and what the team expects of him, but to say he deserves more leeway than Ryder doesn't seem sensible.
Ryder has been playing 3seasons with Koivu..and 2 seasons with Higgins...
When the season started last year..Ryder was already comfortable on his line..and CArbo had already seen them play so he knew what that line could do..

Samsonov comes into a new system..new teammates..new linemates..new city..
It takes time to get comfortable..so its normal that he should be given more time to adapt..
Although i agree that since he's a veteran..he should be adapting quicker than if it was a youngster coming in to a new team..but you cant ask any player to change teams and just be phenominal from Game 1...gotta be realistic..

And well..Carbo refused to change Plek-Sam-Kovy untill halfway thru season..and at that point..well..the damage was already done

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07-18-2007, 04:37 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Samsonov comes into a new system..new teammates..new linemates..new city..
It takes time to get comfortable..so its normal that he should be given more time to adapt..
Although i agree that since he's a veteran..he should be adapting quicker than if it was a youngster coming in to a new team..but you cant ask any player to change teams and just be phenominal from Game 1...gotta be realistic..

And well..Carbo refused to change Plek-Sam-Kovy untill halfway thru season..and at that point..well..the damage was already done
Ok, maybe so. It took Bonk a while too. But he wasn't brought in to score.

Since Samsonov was crap on a line with his countryman Kovalev for so long, what's his excuse 2 months into the season? Again, I agree that was a mistake by Carbo to keep them together, but Samsonov is getting a free pass here in order to slag the coach ?? C'mon man, that's still disingenuous.

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07-18-2007, 04:47 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
-Benching Kovalev..Perez..Rivet..Sammy..
And don't forget when he benched KOIVU of all players ... during his BEST SEASON EVER.

I'm still scratching my head over that one

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07-18-2007, 04:59 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
Ok, maybe so. It took Bonk a while too. But he wasn't brought in to score.

Since Samsonov was crap on a line with his countryman Kovalev for so long, what's his excuse 2 months into the season? Again, I agree that was a mistake by Carbo to keep them together, but Samsonov is getting a free pass here in order to slag the coach ?? C'mon man, that's still disingenuous.

No i never said Samsonov got a free pass...he still came into training camp 30lbs overweight..he still could have played better and give a lot more than he did..
I was just saying that you cant expect a player to perform well right off the bat..it takes time to adapt..and well..by the time Carbo decided to change the lines..Sammy already wanted out of MTL..

I blame Carbo more bcuz i feel that if Sammy would have been used differently..he could have played better..
But it doesnt excuse the fact that he didnt come to camp healthy

Both did bad..and both are responsible..but like i said..i feel Sammy could have had a much better season if he'd been used differently

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