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OT:Vicks View in the ATL

View Poll Results: Vicks Perception
He is innocent but a bad guy 3 2.05%
He is innocent but a good guy 3 2.05%
He is guilty and a bad guy 133 91.10%
He is guilty and a good guy 7 4.79%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-19-2007, 12:48 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The Feds got involved because he committed a Federal crime. They have to get involved. He was just indicted by a Federal Grand Jury that his nothing to do with the local police who may have their own charges. Contrary to popular belief (and most 1980s cop movies), "the Feds" don't take over crime scenes/cases for the publicity. They do it because a Federal crime has been committed.

The evidence, especially due to his cousin's cooperation, is pretty damning right now. Vick threw his cousin under the bus and his cousin didn't take it very well. Witnesses have Vick transporting dogs, organizing events, placing bets, and executing dogs. Right now I am sure the FBI is going through his financial records to see where he bought/who built the necessary structures and kennels involved and if they can trace the money he bet on the fights.

Say what you will about the FBI but they are really, really great at tracing money. But I am willing to bet that Vick wasn't exactly secret about using his money for purchases and to gamble with. Vick's greatest asset right now is time. This won't be going to trial for a very long time so he should get to play the entire next season.
If this case goes to trial, even if the evidence is borderline, it will destroy Vick's public image (even moreso than it is now) and you will be seeing all of the pictures of dead dogs every night on the news. No, instead I think he takes a plea deal during the next offseason, if one is offered. If one isn't offered than he almost has to plea no contest. A no contest plea will prevent a lot of the media circus.
Good post.

Actually from what it sounds like he doesn't have the time either. This is probably going to trial within 70 days, which falls right in the middle of the season. The district this falls under has earned the nickname "Rocket Docket" for how fast cases are processed.

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During the 1960s, Judge Albert V. Bryan Jr. ran the Alexandria court, often ruled cases on the spot after motions were argued. The court earned the nickname, the "rocket docket", for the speed and efficiency for which it processes its cases. Since 1997, the court has processed civil cases the fastest of the 94 federal districts, and eighth fastest in dealing with criminal cases.
See this link for more on "rocket docket" and Vick:
http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/192448

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07-19-2007, 01:32 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The Feds got involved because he committed a Federal crime. They have to get involved.
Not true.

Take a look at the current Justice Department issues within the Bush Admin. Many of the Federal District Attorneys were removed because the Bush Admin was not happy with which cases they were pursuing and which cases they weren't.

It is quite rare for the Federal Government to get involved in a local issue like this. And I still want to know the last time this federal law regarding carrying an animal across state lines for gambling purposes was actually invoked...especially in this particular district.

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07-19-2007, 02:04 PM
  #28
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Not true.

Take a look at the current Justice Department issues within the Bush Admin. Many of the Federal District Attorneys were removed because the Bush Admin was not happy with which cases they were pursuing and which cases they weren't.

It is quite rare for the Federal Government to get involved in a local issue like this. And I still want to know the last time this federal law regarding carrying an animal across state lines for gambling purposes was actually invoked...especially in this particular district.
So, he shouldn't get charged because someone who posts in an internet hockey forum doesn't think this crime is pursued very often? And, in regards to organized crime, this is exactly the type of offense that is pursued. The law has nothing specifically to do with dogfighting or gambling... it is simply a federal offense to cross state lines while committing a felony.

He committed a federal crime which means a federal investigation must progress. The Bush Admin analogy is wrong as well since those prosecutors have a distinctly different job and jurisdiction. A crime was definitely committed on Vick's property... that fact isn't vague at all. That lead to an investigation which lead to the indictment. There's no conspiracy involved.

Also, these are just the federal charges... local charges (which are much easier to stick) will be coming as well. Between the federal trial and the local trial he will be found guilty. Whenever there is a federal trial and a local trial the defendant is in a very difficult position. Evidence can be shared by both prosecutors, witnesses who lie in one trial will be at much greater risk of perjuring themselves, resources can be shared, etc.

The feds and local authorities have at least 3 witnesses, specific dates, a crap ton of physical evidence, and Vick better hope that they don't dig up financial records to complete the paper trail. If that happens he has no defense.

He will have his day in court. It just won't be a very pretty day.

And then he gets to have another day in court. That won't be pretty either. Remember, the local charges against him (when filed) won't include charges such as crossing state lines or conspiracy. They are going to be charges that laypeople will instantly understand such as mistreatment of animals, violation of zoning ordinances, illegal gambling, and numerous others. The local charges will be a huge laundry list just to ensure that something will stick.

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Old
07-19-2007, 02:33 PM
  #29
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Michael Vick is a disgrace to the NFL and to society in general. If the Falcons and the NFL had a set of balls he would never ever step foot on another football field again. I have 3 dogs: a yellow lab, mastiff, and a pit bull. I love them to death. Anyone who tortures those poor things is a sick, sick individual. I would love to beat the **** out of that guy.

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07-19-2007, 02:56 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
Not true.

Take a look at the current Justice Department issues within the Bush Admin. Many of the Federal District Attorneys were removed because the Bush Admin was not happy with which cases they were pursuing and which cases they weren't.

It is quite rare for the Federal Government to get involved in a local issue like this. And I still want to know the last time this federal law regarding carrying an animal across state lines for gambling purposes was actually invoked...especially in this particular district.
It IS a federal crime. See link:
http://www.hsus.org/press_and_public...committee.html

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07-19-2007, 02:59 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
BTW, does anyone even know the last time the Feds got involved in a dog fighting case? It seemed strange to me they would get involved....you know federal prosecutors also like getting media attention and padding their stats.
It's also an illegal gambling operation. That's probably what tipped this to the Fed level.

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07-19-2007, 02:59 PM
  #32
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If I were the owner, I would not allow this disgrace of a human being to be on my team!

And is it me, or do the NFL and NBA have the highest number of criminals compared to the NHL and MLB? Not to sound racist, but part of it has to be a matter of colour... don't crucify me, please.

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07-19-2007, 03:10 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Alain Racette View Post
If I were the owner, I would not allow this disgrace of a human being to be on my team!

And is it me, or do the NFL and NBA have the highest number of criminals compared to the NHL and MLB? Not to sound racist, but part of it has to be a matter of colour... don't crucify me, please.
While I can't speak for baseball, the NHL benefits from being a (comparatively) very expensive sport to play meaning that most of the talent that is able to progress to a professional level was raised in a fairly well-off environment. Further, the amount of time hockey takes up during a child's youth generally guarantees that both parents are taking part in the child's life. Additionally, a large percentage of players are from countries with very, very low crime rates. They just don't have a culture of violence to begin with. And, I would like to add that hockey fans are the most well educated and affluent demographic of sports fans and I think the hockey culture is one of leaving the violence on the ice. Hockey fans just don't really care how much bling a player has or who he is banging. We care what happens on the ice.

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Old
07-19-2007, 03:18 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
So, he shouldn't get charged because someone who posts in an internet hockey forum doesn't think this crime is pursued very often? And, in regards to organized crime, this is exactly the type of offense that is pursued. The law has nothing specifically to do with dogfighting or gambling... it is simply a federal offense to cross state lines while committing a felony.
And my point still stands. Just because a crime is committed, very rarely will the Feds jump in and press charges before any local action is taken.

I am not saying a crime wasn't committed, but to see the Feds take over an investigation about dog fighting is pretty odd to say the least.

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07-19-2007, 03:31 PM
  #35
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And my point still stands. Just because a crime is committed, very rarely will the Feds jump in and press charges before any local action is taken.

I am not saying a crime wasn't committed, but to see the Feds take over an investigation about dog fighting is pretty odd to say the least.
There is a lot of money changing hands. This isn't just a local dogfighting club. And, sure, it is a high profile case but you can't gamble without giving the government its cut. Also, there are myriad reasons why the federal grand jury could indict Vick before the local grand jury. The big reason is likely due to the fact that Vick's cousin is cooperating with the feds. Sure, by extension that will help the local investigation but striking a deal with the feds is the much smarter move.

But the line of thought that goes "The Feds are competently and thoroughly investigating a crime, therefore Vick must be innocent" is idiotic.

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07-19-2007, 04:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
My girlfriend said the same thing about the Duke lacrosse players....guess who is eating crow now for prejudging people.
Federal indictment >>>>>> DA with political agenda. Plus, let's not be naive, those Duke guys aren't as innocent as people keep making them out to be. They are a bunch of bad seeds who put themselves in that position in the first place.

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Originally Posted by btn View Post
I am not saying a crime wasn't committed, but to see the Feds take over an investigation about dog fighting is pretty odd to say the least.
The story is, the local guys were inept and was hindering the investigation. So, the federal guys took over and evidently the amount of evidence that was uncovered before and after they took over is pretty damning. Dude is going to jail. The simple fact that the guy who actually lives in the house hasn't been indicted is pretty damning, too. Vick can't cop a plea on this one; his boy is. Also, if I remember correctly, if anything is happening across state lines that's the federal governments business. Michael Vick has to be the dumbest athlete I've seen in a long while. This just proves my theory: he's also the dumbest quarterback in the NFL. From a former Falcons fan to another: my sympathies.

edit: Yes, I do realize it's not really a theory, henceforth


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Old
07-19-2007, 04:51 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
Not true.

Take a look at the current Justice Department issues within the Bush Admin. Many of the Federal District Attorneys were removed because the Bush Admin was not happy with which cases they were pursuing and which cases they weren't.

It is quite rare for the Federal Government to get involved in a local issue like this. And I still want to know the last time this federal law regarding carrying an animal across state lines for gambling purposes was actually invoked...especially in this particular district.
It IS a Federal crime. The fact that it crossed state lines makes it one. Who do you think prosecutes crimes that involve illegal interstate activity? And this isn't really the right forum for a political rant. If you can show where there was a case of interstate transportation of an animal for illegal purposes that WASN'T prosecuted, that would prove your point much better. Good luck

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07-19-2007, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boognish View Post
And this isn't really the right forum for a political rant.
But since he brought it up: btn, you do realize the Clinton administration did the same thing, right? I mean, Janet Reno even said so. Why do people always look at one side of the coin when it suits their needs?

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07-19-2007, 05:23 PM
  #39
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But since he brought it up: btn, you do realize the Clinton administration did the same thing, right? I mean, Janet Reno even said so. Why do people always look at one side of the coin when it suits their needs?
Because the other side of the coin shows Vick giving herpes to his cellmate.

You don't want to know how.

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07-19-2007, 11:17 PM
  #40
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But since he brought it up: btn, you do realize the Clinton administration did the same thing, right? I mean, Janet Reno even said so. Why do people always look at one side of the coin when it suits their needs?
I was just using that as an example of how Federal Prosecutors do not have to pursue every violation of the law in their areas. They have to make decisions into which cases are the best use of their time and money.

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07-20-2007, 01:01 AM
  #41
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It is quite rare for the Federal Government to get involved in a local issue like this. And I still want to know the last time this federal law regarding carrying an animal across state lines for gambling purposes was actually invoked...especially in this particular district.

This is a good point that all of you guys are rolling over in order to try to validate your own points. The feds pursuing this case reminds me of the FCC censoring television in the name of "regulating interstate commerce" as described in the US Constitution... Just going way out there to fit the needs of public/political outcry. Dog fighting is all over the United States backwoods, you just never hear about it because the rings are typically small, and the local podunk cops usually don't care. So hearing about guy from rural Virginia getting busted for liking dog fighting really doesn't surprise me, especially when he has a history of not thinking things through.

To summarize, I think the government is going way overboard on this case because a celebrity is involved, but yes, Vick shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. Dog fighting is a cruel and unfortunate tradition that he happened to be brought up around, and now he gets to pay the price

Between Vick and Jamal Anderson Falcons fans have to had to endure a massive amount of star power taken away from them for dumb reasons in the last decade. Although Anderson's was infinitely more typical, it's a similar pain.

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07-20-2007, 01:20 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by DungeonK View Post
This is a good point that all of you guys are rolling over in order to try to validate your own points. The feds pursuing this case reminds me of the FCC censoring television in the name of "regulating interstate commerce" as described in the US Constitution... Just going way out there to fit the needs of public/political outcry. Dog fighting is all over the United States backwoods, you just never hear about it because the rings are typically small, and the local podunk cops usually don't care. So hearing about guy from rural Virginia getting busted for liking dog fighting really doesn't surprise me, especially when he has a history of not thinking things through.

To summarize, I think the government is going way overboard on this case because a celebrity is involved, but yes, Vick shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. Dog fighting is a cruel and unfortunate tradition that he happened to be brought up around, and now he gets to pay the price

Between Vick and Jamal Anderson Falcons fans have to had to endure a massive amount of star power taken away from them for dumb reasons in the last decade. Although Anderson's was infinitely more typical, it's a similar pain.
Dogfighting, very recently, has been considered a serious federal offense. Sure, the fact that Vick is involved makes the case sexier but merely the vast amounts of money that changed hands has to make Vick's run gambling ring one of the most important dog fighting groups in the country. This isn't a couple of rednecks disregarding ****** their sister for a few minutes to see some dogs fight... this is a big deal.

Anyone who defends Vick, except to say that he should have his day in court, is retarded. The man is not human and has no soul. It is like he went back in time and killed MLK himself. He is a thug, nothing more and nothing less... well maybe something less. He committed a crime that will very, very easy to prove. He is currently lying about his involvement and will not be contrite until he has to be. He adds nothing to human civilization.

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07-20-2007, 02:26 AM
  #43
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It is like he went back in time and killed MLK himself.
HOLY CRAP that's offensive and uncalled for. Comparing the loss of one of our country's great leaders to a guy that fought animals for sport? Hundreds of deer and various birds are shot daily for nothing but enjoyment, thousands of animals are slaughtered for eating (including dogs in some places), but all of those combined can't make up for the loss of such a legendary visionary. I have two dogs myself, treat them like children, and would never harm a hair on their tails, but you are out of your mind. Get a grip on reality next time you think about trying to marginalize the importance of a national hero.

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07-20-2007, 08:16 AM
  #44
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The man is not human and has no soul.
If our society cared about our fellow citizens as much as we care about our pets, what a wonderful place it would be to live.

It is quite entertaining that Nike is not releasing their new Vick shoe due to this situation. I am sure the underpaid 3rd World sweatshop workers they employ are pleased their workload might be reduced a bit.


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07-20-2007, 08:43 AM
  #45
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What he is charged with is absolutely stomach turning, and given the high profile nature of this case my guess is that the Feds have their ducks in a row. He'll prolly go down for this.

I won't say whether or not Vick is a 'bad guy', but no matter how this case ends he is guilty of being stupid:

1.Ron Mexico
2.Fliipng off the home fans
3.The water bottle incident
4.This BS

The sports question here is are the Falcons more stupid than Vick for giving up Ladanian Tomlinson+Dwight+2 draft picks to get him.
Well, clearly. On top of that, the Chargers got their QB when they ripped off the Giants in the Manning deal.

Both the Atlanta deal and the Giants deal with them got the two teams ripped the **** off.

Vick is OK, but he should stick to running. His throwing is middle of the road starting level.

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Old
07-20-2007, 08:46 AM
  #46
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Well, clearly. On top of that, the Chargers got their QB when they ripped off the Giants in the Manning deal.

Both the Atlanta deal and the Giants deal with them got the two teams ripped the **** off.
At least the Falcons got an NFL QB out of the deal, and a trip to the NFC finals to boot.

The Giants got a marginal talent with a famous last name. I think Lorenzen is the best QB on the Giants roster, and has been for the past couple of years.

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07-20-2007, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
If our society cared about our fellow citizens as much as we care about our pets, what a wonderful place it would be to live.

It is quite entertaining that Nike is not releasing their new Vick shoe due to this situation. I am sure the underpaid 3rd World sweatshop workers they employ are pleased their workload might be reduced a bit.
Uhhh, this is a pretty ****ed up allegation. It's not just the whole, "you don't treat your pet that well!"

It's the whole, "you hung your pet from a ceiling and electrocuted them to death" thing.

You know. One is a bit more ****ed up than the other. But I'll let you decide.

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07-20-2007, 09:55 AM
  #48
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Uhhh, this is a pretty ****ed up allegation. It's not just the whole, "you don't treat your pet that well!"

It's the whole, "you hung your pet from a ceiling and electrocuted them to death" thing.

You know. One is a bit more ****ed up than the other. But I'll let you decide.
I have seen more outrage over this, than when illegal immigrants are held as virtual slaves in brothels/spas in THIS country.

Sorry, but the fact of the matter is people do care more for animals than their fellow man. The reaction to this case highlights the matter quite clearly.

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07-20-2007, 09:58 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by DungeonK View Post
This is a good point that all of you guys are rolling over in order to try to validate your own points. The feds pursuing this case reminds me of the FCC censoring television in the name of "regulating interstate commerce" as described in the US Constitution... Just going way out there to fit the needs of public/political outcry. Dog fighting is all over the United States backwoods, you just never hear about it because the rings are typically small, and the local podunk cops usually don't care. So hearing about guy from rural Virginia getting busted for liking dog fighting really doesn't surprise me, especially when he has a history of not thinking things through.

To summarize, I think the government is going way overboard on this case because a celebrity is involved, but yes, Vick shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. Dog fighting is a cruel and unfortunate tradition that he happened to be brought up around, and now he gets to pay the price
What I am hearing on the talk airwaves is that the Feds are charging Vick because want him to name some much more high value targets in the dog fighting world. Apparently it is not so much his direct involvement in promoting dog fighting as much as his affluence allowed him access a higher level than your typical backwoods dog fights. The Feds know the charges applied will stick and the heat is now on to turn witness in a plea bargain type arangement. Somehow I don't see him doing his time or pulling a "Ray Ray".

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07-20-2007, 12:17 PM
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Well it's good to see abuse of English and Hyperbole have made their appearance. All we need now is a Nazi reference or racism to round this out. I'm counting on you, Valhoun. That MLK comment was out of the park.

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