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Vancouver Proposals

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Old
01-03-2004, 02:52 AM
  #1
Shane
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Vancouver Proposals

Before you read the proposals, please note: On the Canucks' forum, there was a thread that asked "If you were GM, what would you do?" I worked hard to help fill some holes in the Vancouver roster, but I feel that my obvious fan bias may have skewed some of the trades in Vancouver's favour. Though, in my defence, I did try to be as fair as possible and weigh both teams concerns/needs as I made my proposals. All I ask of you is to give me your brutally honest opinions on how you think I did. I'd specifically like to hear from San Jose, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo fans and their suggestions on how to improve these proposals. Thanks.

<hr>

To San Jose: C. Artem Chubarov, D. Jaroslav Obsut, conditional draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: C. Mike Ricci, D. Rob Davison

Why this trade works:

- Vancouver obtains a veteran grinding centre with a nose for the net. Ricci brings more leadership and experience to the Canucks' dressing room. He also has an existing relationship with winger Mike Keane, and coach Marc Crawford, having been with them on the 1996 cup winning Colorado Avalanche team. Ricci also wouldn't look out of place on the second line as an injury fill-in.

- Vancouver obtains in Davison a big, young defenseman who's not afraid to play physical. He won't hesitate to drop the gloves, and help clear the crease. Gives the team a more tougher look on the back-end.

- San Jose obtains in Chubarov a young checking centre with a respectable offensive upside. Helps give the team more youthful talent, as they enter a rebuilding phase. Obtain something in return for Ricci, who may leave as an UFA in the offseason.

- San Jose obtain an interesting project in Obsut. He has the skills to be a 5/6 defenseman, with good offensive potential. Could provide more offense from San Jose's blueline, an area they lack in.

- The conditional pick is added incentive to sweeten the deal for San Jose. Would initially be a fourth round pick, but could be upgraded to a third should Vancouver make it to the conference finals.

Why this trade doesn't work:

- With San Jose in sharp form this season, and a chance to win the division title and win a top playoff spot they may be reluctant to part with Ricci. Though unlikely to make it past the first round, a playoff berth is something the team sorely needs to help maintain fan interest after last year's train wreck.

- San Jose would be reluctant to part with a potential defensive stud in Davison for the aging Obsut who has proven nothing in the NHL (though, to his credit, Obsut hasn't been given much of a chance).

- Vancouver would have to take on a bit of salary with Mike Ricci without giving up much, though if the trade is made closer to the trade deadline, the Canucks would only have to pay a fraction of Ricci's $3M contract.

<hr>

To Pittsburgh: C. RJ Umberger

To Vancouver: Pittsburgh's second round pick in 2004

Why this trade works:

- Vancouver unloads Umberger who seems to never had the intention of playing in Vancouver anyway, and looks set to re-enter the draft in 2004. Obtain a better pick than they would have received as compensation for losing Umberger.

- Pittsburgh obtain a blue-chip offensive talent, who happens to be a hometown boy. Gives the deprived fans a reason, other than Lemieux, Fleury and Ovechkin ( ), to come out. That is if Umberger pans out to be the top offensive centre he's projected to be.

Why this trade doesn't work:

- If the Canucks are unwilling to give into Umberger's contract demands, why will the cash-strapped Penguins do so? (Though perhaps Umberger will lower his asking price for a chance to play for his hometown).

- Penguins may be reluctant to lose a second round pick on a player they'd probably be able to get in the third round if he re-enters the draft.

<hr>

To Buffalo: D. Brent Sopel, RW. Fedor Fedorov, Pittsburgh's 2nd round draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: RW. Miroslav Satan

Why this trade works:

- Buffalo gains the powerplay quaterback they so desperately need in Brent Sopel. Though the Andy Delmore experiment failed, Sopel is more than just a gorilla with a hard shot. An offensive wizard/powerplay specialist, Sopel is just what Buffalo needs. At $875k, he's a bargain too. With Ed Jovanovski, Mattias Ohlund, Sami Salo, and Jiri Slegr the Canucks have enough offense on the blueline to make up for the loss of Sopel.

- With Fedorov, Buffalo is getting arguably one of the more talented offensive prospect in the league, and should he ever fulfill his potential, could be a 70-80 point man. A change of scenery could be just what the doctor ordered for Fedorov.

- Vancouver will obtain a proven scoring winger in Satan to play on their second line and add depth to their offense. Satan can also fill in on the top line in event of injuries. Could finally be the guy that can finish the Sedin's wonderful set-up plays. Because they are in form to miss the playoffs, Buffalo may be glad to be rid of underachieving Satan's bloated salary, and could probably easily package one of their three young goaltending studs (Biron, Noronen, Miller) for a replacement for Satan.

Why this trade doesn't work:

- Vancouver will find themselves desperately missing Sopel's right-handed shot, an aspect they need more of, not less.

- Why Buffalo would want to rid themselves of one headache in Satan, for a massively larger one in Fedorov is incomprehensible. Though he has the talent, Fedorov lacks the drive needed to make the NHL. Still, 20+ teams would love to take a crack at Fedorov, in attempt to make him the player he could be and Buffalo could very well be one of them.

- Buffalo would be reluctant to part with their best offensive player, team captain, and franchise player. His improved play of late may be enough to bring him out of Lindy Ruff's doghouse (assuming he was ever there in the first place).

- Vancouver may not be able to take so much salary without giving up much in return. Though much of Satan's $4.75M contract will be eaten up by the Sabres if the trade is made near the deadline, even a little salary may be too much for the fiscally cautious Canucks. Thankfully, with a lockout looming next year, the Canucks may not have to pay Satan's reported $6M in salary for the 04-05 season.

<hr>

Vancouver's Lines after trades:

Naslund - Morrison - Bertuzzi
D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Satan
Cooke - Ricci - Linden
Arvedson - Keane - Ruutu

Extra: May, Lindgren

May and Lindgren would be rotated in and out of the line-up with Keane and Ruutu depending on the opponent.

Malik - Jovanovski
Ohlund - Slegr
Allen - Salo

Extra: Davison, Brookbank

Davison would be sent down to Manitoba, and Brookbank would act as the seventh d-man, and rotate with Slegr. Occasionally starting games as a LW depending on the opponent.


Last edited by Shane: 01-03-2004 at 02:56 AM.
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Old
01-03-2004, 03:54 AM
  #2
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Why would you want to trade Sopel now? IMO he has been your best dman for the last month.

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01-03-2004, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
Why would you want to trade Sopel now? IMO he has been your best dman for the last month.
More the reason to trade him. His stock is up, and he's a valuable commodity. If he's what it takes to obtain a guy like Satan, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

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01-03-2004, 07:11 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
Malik - Jovanovski
Ohlund - Slegr
Allen - Salo

Extra: Davison, Brookbank

Davison would be sent down to Manitoba, and Brookbank would act as the seventh d-man, and rotate with Slegr. Occasionally starting games as a LW depending on the opponent.

That defence really stinks. Sopel is a solid #3-5 dman when he plays well.. I cann't say the same for Slegr. Slegr fits in well as the 7th dman filling in when there are injuries. I think Burke has been working hard to give the Canucks some solid defence which is why you won't see Sopel traded at least not until one of Koltsov or Mojzis are 100% ready to play in the NHL. You cann't fill one hole by creating another.

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01-03-2004, 07:44 AM
  #5
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
To San Jose: C. Artem Chubarov, D. Jaroslav Obsut, conditional draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: C. Mike Ricci, D. Rob Davison
I think this trade would work, but only at or near the trade deadline and only if San Jose is out of the playoff race.



Quote:
To Pittsburgh: C. RJ Umberger

To Vancouver: Pittsburgh's second round pick in 2004
This trade definitely works for Vancouver as the conditional 2nd round pick they would receive when/if Umberger signs with another club would be a lower pick then Pittsburghs 2nd, which is really just a late 1st. Pittsburgh gets the jump on signing Umberger, but I doubt they'd trade their 2nd rounder for him as they probably have one of the best chances of signing Umberger when/if he becomes a UFA.


Quote:
- Vancouver unloads Umberger who seems to never had the intention of playing in Vancouver anyway, and looks set to re-enter the draft in 2004. Obtain a better pick than they would have received as compensation for losing Umberger.
Apparantly Umberger is willing to sign for around $950,000 base salary, which isn't bad. It's Burke that want's to low-ball him. And Umberger can't re-enter the draft, he'll become a UFA if not signed.

Quote:
- If the Canucks are unwilling to give into Umberger's contract demands, why will the cash-strapped Penguins do so? (Though perhaps Umberger will lower his asking price for a chance to play for his hometown).
According to Umberger's agent, there asking price is quite reasonable. Take it for what it's worth.

Quote:
To Buffalo: D. Brent Sopel, RW. Fedor Fedorov, Pittsburgh's 2nd round draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: RW. Miroslav Satan
Take out Fedor and the 2nd and put in the Canucks' 1st and it might work. Besides, I don't think Vancouver will trade Sopel unless they get another RH'ed shooting d-man in return. I think Carolina may be a place that Sopel get's shopped too:

To Carolina

Brent Sopel
Jason King
R.J. Umberger
3rd round pick

To Vancouver

Jeff O'Neill
Sean Hill


Last edited by Peter Griffin: 01-03-2004 at 07:58 AM.
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01-03-2004, 08:03 AM
  #6
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I like the ideas but I am not sure about Ricci. We have some good defensive players and energy guys and i am not sure ricci really addresses are needs. I think we need some more proven scoring. I have felt for more than a year now that we need a genuine scorer to put on the Sedin line not just someone who plays well with them but someone who is better than them. I like the idea of Satan, a few other guys i would like to see on that line who might be available are Jeff O'Niel, Ryan smyth, Mark Parrish, Anson Carter, Danus Zubrus. Some of these guys would be better than others. Pittsburgh might be interested in Umberger but i think if we were to get a 2nd for him it would be our 2nd back not thiers. and Buffalo i would like to get Satan but i have my doubts that Sopel, Federov, and a 2nd would be enough, and i am not sure how interested they would be in Sopel maybe a 3 way deal

Van- Satan
Buf - Tarnstrom, Van 2nd (from pit)
Pit - Sopel, Federov, Umberger

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01-03-2004, 08:09 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck Highlander
Van- Satan
Buf - Tarnstrom, Van 2nd (from pit)
Pit - Sopel, Federov, Umberger
I think Buffalo would want either Bryan Allen or Matt Cooke for Satan, perhaps both. In any case, they would probably want Sopel more then Tarnstrom(younger, cheaper, better defensively, bigger).

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01-03-2004, 08:15 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
[B]

To Buffalo: D. Brent Sopel, RW. Fedor Fedorov, Pittsburgh's 2nd round draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: RW. Miroslav Satan
No. Plenty of better offers from other teams could be made for Buffalo's franchise player. If this is the package that Vancouver offers, Buffalo should stick out their tongue and walk away.

Vancouver could not take on his salary anyways. He's too expensive for the Canucks after giving Jovocop and Bertuzzi those contract extensions.

Oh wait, why don't you throw in Umberger? Or Ruutu? Oh, how about Keane? Maybe that'll even it out.

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01-03-2004, 08:21 AM
  #9
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man
No. Plenty of better offers from other teams could be made for Buffalo's franchise player.
Really? What other teams can, A.) Afford Satan's salary, B.) Need a scoring winger., and C.) Would be willing to match or better an offer like that? Some, but not "plenty".

Quote:
Vancouver could not take on his salary anyways. He's too expensive for the Canucks after giving Jovocop and Bertuzzi those contract extensions.
Not really. Management has said they they will loosen the purse strings for certain deals, getting a guy like Satan may be one of them. Remember, Naslund has hinted at retiring at the end of his contract, and next year is the last guaranteed year(Canucks hold a $7 mil option for the 2005/06 season). Satan could be seen as a guy who can instantly improve the secondary scoring right now, thus possibly increasing revenues by helping the team go further in the playoffs. Of course if the Canucks bomb in the postseason they will be in dire straights. But if they don't, Satan's salary can be paid by increased playoff revenue, and when/if Naslund retires, his salary can be transfered to pay for Satan. The Canucks made a reported $12 mil last year, and that is just from ticket sales, merchandise, and TV rights. The owner makes a killing off concessions, parking, that sort of thing, which isn't included in the Canuck's revenues, but rather in Orca Bay, John McCaw's company that owns the team. If the Canucks want Satan, they can afford his salary.

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01-03-2004, 08:56 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I think Buffalo would want either Bryan Allen or Matt Cooke for Satan, perhaps both. In any case, they would probably want Sopel more then Tarnstrom(younger, cheaper, better defensively, bigger).
your pretty much there. there arnt many Nucks us sabres would like. but Cooke is valued VERY highly. tho some want tarnstrom, i would prefer sopel, but we have a developing work-in-progress campbell, and we need hard, goes to the net, forwards who score. or gritty players, 2 way forwards, like arvedsoon.

i dont know allen but cooke is a highly wanted player.

anyway, the nucks have 1 BIG hole. GOALTENDING! Cloutier plain sucks and hedberg wont get them a cup anytime soon, maybe trading cloutier away and getting Cujo for a true cup run.

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01-03-2004, 09:03 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
anyway, the nucks have 1 BIG hole. GOALTENDING! Cloutier plain sucks and hedberg wont get them a cup anytime soon, maybe trading cloutier away and getting Cujo for a true cup run.
wow... are you ever wrong. Cloutier has been our MVP this season. the team has played poorly for months but we've been getting the points because of stellar goaltending. Cloutier has stolen us so many points this season it's not even funny.

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01-03-2004, 09:05 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaVal575
wow... are you ever wrong. Cloutier has been our MVP this season. the team has played poorly for months but we've been getting the points because of stellar goaltending. Cloutier has stolen us so many points this season it's not even funny.
i meant postseason. regular season i dont care, nucks are playoff certain.

but in the playoffs. cloutier set the WORST GOALTENDING NUMBERS RECORD EVER. i mean cujo could help then. even a good run at hasek might be looked at.

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01-03-2004, 09:08 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
anyway, the nucks have 1 BIG hole. GOALTENDING! Cloutier plain sucks and hedberg wont get them a cup anytime soon, maybe trading cloutier away and getting Cujo for a true cup run.
Cloutier has been phenominal this year. If he can't continue this play into the playoffs, then we can talk about getting a different goalie, but not right now.

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01-03-2004, 09:09 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Cloutier has been phenominal this year. If he can't continue this play into the playoffs, then we can talk about getting a different goalie, but not right now.
Messege above yours by me:

Quote:
i meant postseason. regular season i dont care, nucks are playoff certain.

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01-03-2004, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Messege above yours by me:
And you'll notice that I said that the Canucks will use Cloutier as their #1 goalie in the playoffs. If he can't play decent hockey, then the Canucks will go looking for a goalie in the off-season, but not now.

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01-03-2004, 09:18 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
i meant postseason. regular season i dont care, nucks are playoff certain.
Cloutier was great against St Louis last postseason despite playing semi-injured, and if he can't continue his solid play which he elevated to another level this season in the postseason, that's why we have a backup who has taken his team to the conference finals, beating both Kolzig (the year after he won a Vezina), and Hasek (the year he won the Vezina trophy).

the Canucks would be crazy not to give Cloutier a shot after his play so far.

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01-03-2004, 12:19 PM
  #17
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Pens wouldn't trade their 31st overall pick for Umberger. Umberger will most likely sign with someone as a UFA this summer(or soon after CBA signed) and it will probably be with Pittsburgh based on it is his home town and there are positions up for grab on the pens young team. So to look at the proposed trade, pens trade practically a late first for someone who has not played in almost a year and whom they can sign this summer anyways. I doubt they make the move.

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01-03-2004, 01:03 PM
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Fedor

federov has 0 trade value as he was sent home by the moose i believe.

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01-03-2004, 01:52 PM
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Vancouver is not a fit for Miro.Miro is on a hot streak now, so I would take nothing less then Klesler,Koltsov and a 1st.I value him as high as Demitra, probably higher because he is cheaper and isn't injury prone.

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01-03-2004, 02:07 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
Miro is on a hot streak now, so I would take nothing less then Klesler,Koltsov and a 1st.
I didn't know Darcy Regeir posted on these boards? Cool!


Quote:
I value him as high as Demitra, probably higher because he is cheaper and isn't injury prone.
Demitra is injury prone?

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01-03-2004, 02:08 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
Vancouver is not a fit for Miro.Miro is on a hot streak now, so I would take nothing less then Klesler,Koltsov and a 1st.I value him as high as Demitra, probably higher because he is cheaper and isn't injury prone.
and that about sums up why players values are usually so way off on this board... nearly everytime a player gets moved, the value for the main player is less than what is proposed on the board... Straka and Kovalev have been examples of that...

teams don't base value on "hot streaks"... it's like saying that a couple games ago, Satan's value was a 10th of that, cause he was struggling and on pace of a 35 pt season... a hattrick later his value sky rockets?? sorry it doesn't work like that... hot streaks don't impact a players value nearly so much.

IMO chances of Miro getting moved are very slim... but if he does - if the Sabres really feel that he's not earning his paycheck and needs to be moved (it's not like his salary is a huge weight on the Sabres, rather they only would move him if they feel there are cheaper players on the team that are already contributing more, and they can afford to move him) - then his asset value won't be that high.

there are only a handful of teams that will add his salary to their payroll (and waiting for the deadline doesn't matter, as he's got another year on his salary)... out of that group, there are less that will need to add a top 6 winger at the expense of whatever youth or assets goes the other way... out of that group, there are even less that would give up that kind of value for a guy who's got another year on his contract, rather then go after one of the soon to be UFAs come deadline time who may be a lot less expensive...

in the end the market is slim, if the Sabres want to move him... therefore his value won't be as high.

this IMO though is the primary reason why Reiger won't move him... Reiger isn't a GM that makes moves when his own assets are at depreciated value.... if he wants to move him, he will wait for the market to get better, and given the CBA situation, it is unlikely to get any better until atleast the trade deadline next year (or year after whenever a new CBA is in place).

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01-03-2004, 04:40 PM
  #22
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you really think Broobank won't make another stop before the year is over, but I guess it's possible

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01-03-2004, 04:50 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by friesen12
you really think Broobank won't make another stop before the year is over, but I guess it's possible
Well, the question was "If you were GM, what would you do?", and for one thing, if I was GM I wouldn't let Brookbank go anywhere.

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01-03-2004, 04:52 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
To San Jose: C. Artem Chubarov, D. Jaroslav Obsut, conditional draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: C. Mike Ricci, D. Rob Davison
Obsut is 27 and has 7 games of NHL experience. He is a minor leaguer who helps out your AHL team. He's not the kind of guy who often gets traded.

From Van's point of view, I go after Ricci with picks and prospects but not roster players. Something like Umberger/King + 2nd. I believe this team needs to add another center not a one for one swap.

Quote:
To Buffalo: D. Brent Sopel, RW. Fedor Fedorov, Pittsburgh's 2nd round draft pick in 2004

To Vancouver: RW. Miroslav Satan
Salary wise it's a lot to add (unless Burke knows something about Nazzy's retirement plans that none of us do). And it's not the most fair value wise. Sopel is a solid player but he's not the kind of guy who lands you a player like Satan. Fedor is a complete waste of time to any team IMO. Face it, the guy just doesn't have the head or will to play in the NHL.

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01-03-2004, 06:06 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
Vancouver is not a fit for Miro. Miro is on a hot streak now, so I would take nothing less then Klesler, Koltsov and a 1st. I value him as high as Demitra, probably higher because he is cheaper and isn't injury prone.
Miroslav Satan is an excellent hockey player, but what you don't know about Pavol Demitra would fill a fleet of C-130's...

Demitra's nothing like "injury prone." Leaving aside the 2000-01 season, which he missed half of thanks to getting kicked in the leg and developing an infection (hardly an example of being "injury prone"), Demitra's missed a grand total of 14 games in the other four seasons since 1998-99, and has played the full 82-game schedule twice in that time.

As of the end of last year, Demitra has exactly one less career point than Satan (461 to 462), despite playing in 137 fewer games (485 to Satan's 622). Demitra's career points-per-game mark is much higher than Satan's.

Demitra also has seven more career playoff points (42 to 35) than Satan, but does have ten more career playoff games (61 to Satan's 51).

As I said, Satan's an excellent player... and would look just fine in a Bluenote. But don't disparage Demitra to try and build up Satan; Satan's good enough to shine without having to run down someone else to do it, and you're wrong about Demitra in any case.

--------------------

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