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Pitkanen inks deal with Oilers

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Old
07-23-2007, 01:06 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
Sure, who wouldnt be? Any time you get a first line player out of a trade you should be happy. Is Lupul a first line player though? I highly doubt he is ready to shoulder that much responsibility and ice time. He has quite a bit to prove before he should even be seriously considered to be reliable enough to be a second line player. He has the talent, but the guy screams Pavel Brendl to me.
to compare Lupul to a fat, lazy sack of **** like Pavel Brendl is just wrong. Lupul had 1 tough season up in Edmonton. There was alot of pressure on him up there, he is going to come here and get a fresh start and just expect to be one of the pieces to get this franchise back to where it needs to be.

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07-23-2007, 01:08 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
I remember 2003-2004. It was the first half or third of the season where they went some insane percentage, and then started to disappear through the second half and in the playoffs. I remember because we were talking about it not clicking like it was earlier that season.

They went 13.1% in the playoffs that year, and then from then on in following seasons, it was mediocre at best.

Averages make things like that look better than it was. That first half of 03/04 was when Forsberg was leading the league in points and Gagne was leading in goals (by a large margin). Our powerplay died after their respective hot streaks ended.
ah, you can poke holes in statistics however you want, but that's how they judge these things dude... and the same criticism can be leveled at any statistical average if you want to attack sample sizes.

our 13.1% in the playoffs was the product of TB playing out of their mind in the Conf. Finals on the PK, as they did throughout the entire playoffs... it was also a product of us not having ANY defenseman left to play the point and Kim Johnsson playing with one hand.

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07-23-2007, 01:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
ah, you can poke holes in statistics however you want, but that's how they judge these things dude... and the same criticism can be leveled at any statistical average if you want to attack sample sizes.

our 13.1% in the playoffs was the product of TB playing out of their mind in the Conf. Finals on the PK, as they did throughout the entire playoffs... it was also a product of us not having ANY defenseman left to play the point and Kim Johnsson playing with one hand.
So you can discredit my argument of the 20% being a fluke, and then proceed to "poke holes" in my assessment of an abysmal 13.1% point with a myriad of excuses, so it's not a fluke.

I get it. The stats I use to back up my claims are invalid, but the ones you use are perfectly fine. Noted. Besides, you didn't mention the seasons after those, as well, where we were still terrible. Also, if that's how they judge it, then even still my point stands - as we were 16th, then last. It's been a downard spiral for a while.

There's no poking holes, Jester. Our powerplay has been bad. For a while. There's no other way to look at it.

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07-23-2007, 01:24 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
So you can discredit my argument of the 20% being a fluke, and then proceed to "poke holes" in my assessment of an abysmal 13.1% point with a myriad of excuses, so it's not a fluke.

I get it. The stats I use to back up my claims are invalid, but the ones you use are perfectly fine. Noted. Besides, you didn't mention the seasons after those, as well, where we were still terrible. Also, if that's how they judge it, then even still my point stands - as we were 16th, then last. It's been a downard spiral for a while.

There's no poking holes, Jester. Our powerplay has been bad. For a while. There's no other way to look at it.
ah, i used the same statistical analysis you used man.

you want to use sample sizes... lets use samples and not averges. over 82 games they were 2nd in the league in PP... and went to game 7 of the Conf. Finals.

the next year they came out smoking hot and finished right in the middle of the pack in a year that was plagued by injuries.

that isn't 'bad' any way you want to qualify it.

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07-23-2007, 01:35 PM
  #105
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If he plays well.
what do you mean "if" he plays well? He will be alongside Souray on the PP, he will have the best season so far if he stays healthy. We are going to get sheered on this deal.

I just can't believe that so many people can't look back and say, "Oh well, it sux that we had to trade Joni." Honestly who in their right mind would want to trade him? Good Luck Joni, and enjoy freezin your @## off in Edmonton

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07-23-2007, 01:40 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
what do you mean "if" he plays well? He will be alongside Souray on the PP, he will have the best season so far if he stays healthy. We are going to get sheered on this deal.

I just can't believe that so many people can't look back and say, "Oh well, it sux that we had to trade Joni." Honestly who in their right mind would want to trade him? Good Luck Joni, and enjoy freezin your @## off in Edmonton
we r not going to get "sheered" IF joni plays well is correct. Goals are not the only category to look at. Joni is supposed to be a number 1 d -man not just a PP QB. It seems pretty obvious Joni didnt want to play for us.

i was all for the trade.

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07-23-2007, 01:47 PM
  #107
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I completely agree with what flyersfan97 said. I don't want a guy in the locker room who cries about getting booed and by some accounts, can't learn how to play proper defense. Like FF97 said, guys like Gagne, Upshall, Hartnell, etc., they want to be here. I have to say that even during the 1st part of the 05-06 season, I never got the impression that Pitkanen wanted to be a Flyer more than he wanted to be a Devil or a Ranger. That passion for the crest is something that guys like Gagne and Upshall have that Pitkanen didn't have and that passion for the crest wins Cups. I mean Gagne could have easily signed with another team last offseason, but he chose to stay here and he kept playing hard even when this team was truly awful.

And I mean, I don't see how Homer was supposed to trade Pitkanen for another offensive d-man, who would have done that deal? I also don't see why everyone is crying so hard about the PP.

---Gagne---Carter---Knuble
------Briere-------Coburn

Briere basically controls the puck and feeds Gagne, Carter, and Coburn for shots while Knuble screens the net.

------Upshall---Richards---Lupul
-------Timonen--------Picard------

Timmonen and Richie act as passers feeding Lupul and Picard for shots.

I mean, our PP isn't going to be the best in the league, but it will be solid and I'd personally rather have Briere on the point instead of fighting for space along the boards.

Also keep in mind that with the addition of Smith, our PK is going to be scary good. I mean, asking for both special teams units to be exceptional is going to be hard. We're adding J. Smith to a PK that was top 5 in the league for much of the year I believe. I mean if we can have a top-5 PK and an average to above average PP, I think we should be alright.

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07-23-2007, 02:49 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I completely agree with what flyersfan97 said. I don't want a guy in the locker room who cries about getting booed and by some accounts, can't learn how to play proper defense. Like FF97 said, guys like Gagne, Upshall, Hartnell, etc., they want to be here. I have to say that even during the 1st part of the 05-06 season, I never got the impression that Pitkanen wanted to be a Flyer more than he wanted to be a Devil or a Ranger. That passion for the crest is something that guys like Gagne and Upshall have that Pitkanen didn't have and that passion for the crest wins Cups. I mean Gagne could have easily signed with another team last offseason, but he chose to stay here and he kept playing hard even when this team was truly awful.

And I mean, I don't see how Homer was supposed to trade Pitkanen for another offensive d-man, who would have done that deal? I also don't see why everyone is crying so hard about the PP.

---Gagne---Carter---Knuble
------Briere-------Coburn

Briere basically controls the puck and feeds Gagne, Carter, and Coburn for shots while Knuble screens the net.

------Upshall---Richards---Lupul
-------Timonen--------Picard------

Timmonen and Richie act as passers feeding Lupul and Picard for shots.

I mean, our PP isn't going to be the best in the league, but it will be solid and I'd personally rather have Briere on the point instead of fighting for space along the boards.

Also keep in mind that with the addition of Smith, our PK is going to be scary good. I mean, asking for both special teams units to be exceptional is going to be hard. We're adding J. Smith to a PK that was top 5 in the league for much of the year I believe. I mean if we can have a top-5 PK and an average to above average PP, I think we should be alright.
1. No player wants to be anything more than a NHL player before they get wherever... and most of them are fighting just to keep that dream alive. The loyalty to the crest doesn't exist nearly as much as you seem to think. Upshall would be happy to be a Ranger or Devil tomorrow, just as much as a Flyer.

2. Gagne was getting BUTCHERED on this board a year ago today for negotiating a fair contract as RFA... so I find it humorous he's getting commended now.

3. I love this argument: "And I mean, I don't see how Homer was supposed to trade Pitkanen for another offensive d-man, who would have done that deal?" If I offered you 60 cents, would you give me 40 cents? I'm not asking for a Pitkanen level offensive player back on the blueline, I'm asking for 40 cents... someone who could play the PP with some competence, which Smith simply can't.

4. Timonen is our best offensive D and will be running the first unit. Briere might be back there with him, but you're not putting a 2nd year defenseman and a forward on top of the 1st unit unless you want to lead the league in SHG against.

5. PK is about more than individual parts... it's about coaching and positioning. the PK was already fine, we weakened the already weak to add to an established strength. Smith's greatest influence is going to be tightening up the unit at even strength, something we already saw following the moves last spring that stabilized the roster beneath Pitkanen and his admitted deficiencies.

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07-23-2007, 03:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
2. Gagne was getting BUTCHERED on this board a year ago today for negotiating a fair contract as RFA... so I find it humorous he's getting commended now.

3. I love this argument: "And I mean, I don't see how Homer was supposed to trade Pitkanen for another offensive d-man, who would have done that deal?" If I offered you 60 cents, would you give me 40 cents? I'm not asking for a Pitkanen level offensive player back on the blueline, I'm asking for 40 cents... someone who could play the PP with some competence, which Smith simply can't.

4. Timonen is our best offensive D and will be running the first unit. Briere might be back there with him, but you're not putting a 2nd year defenseman and a forward on top of the 1st unit unless you want to lead the league in SHG against.
2. Pretty amazing how quickly people flip, eh? I couldn't believe my eyes at some of the stuff that was being said about Gagne on this board a year ago; people were actually against locking up a premier goal scorer and sound two-way forward for $5 million/season. It's embarrassing how fickle some fans can be.

3. I'm still beyond pissed at Homer for not at least getting back an offensive defenseman prospect from Edmonton. Do you mean to tell me he couldn't have pried away Tom Gilbert from Kevin Lowe as part of the deal for Pitkanen? Come on. Ridiculous.

4. I'm hoping Kukkonen gets some PP time here like he did in Chicago. I really think he'd be a great asset to have back there, as both a point man and steadying defensive/veteran presence. Maybe he could be paired with Coburn or Picard on the second unit?

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07-23-2007, 04:22 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
ah, i used the same statistical analysis you used man.

you want to use sample sizes... lets use samples and not averges. over 82 games they were 2nd in the league in PP... and went to game 7 of the Conf. Finals.

the next year they came out smoking hot and finished right in the middle of the pack in a year that was plagued by injuries.

that isn't 'bad' any way you want to qualify it.
I didn't use sample sizes. Do you even read what I said? I said the PP was good for a while, then ever since it has been poor. I didn't mention sample sizes until you brought it up. The point is, after it was good for a bit, there's a MUCH MUCH larger sample size where it was BAD. And it's *still* BAD.

When I used a small sample size in the playoffs, you disqualified it by saying "Tampa played out of their minds, we had injuries, etc." Who cares? The point is, it didn't perform. And the season after the playoffs, it was worse. Then the season after that, it was STILL worse. What don't you get about this? Excuses are valid to you, aren't they? I'm calling the good percentage powerplay a hot streak - they maintained a high percentage that started to dwindle, but because of it, their "overall percentage" was still high. That's what you don't see when you take an average. It hasn't been high ever since that first half of the season when Forsberg first got here. And last year we were even worse, and ordinarily I'd be fine with that considering the season - but we have to go back nearly 3 seasons to the point where it was even 'decent.' And you consider it not a problem?

Starting good, then becoming bad, then becoming worse, to me is BAD, anyway "you" want to slice it.

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07-23-2007, 04:30 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
1. No player wants to be anything more than a NHL player before they get wherever... and most of them are fighting just to keep that dream alive. The loyalty to the crest doesn't exist nearly as much as you seem to think. Upshall would be happy to be a Ranger or Devil tomorrow, just as much as a Flyer.

2. Gagne was getting BUTCHERED on this board a year ago today for negotiating a fair contract as RFA... so I find it humorous he's getting commended now.

3. I love this argument: "And I mean, I don't see how Homer was supposed to trade Pitkanen for another offensive d-man, who would have done that deal?" If I offered you 60 cents, would you give me 40 cents? I'm not asking for a Pitkanen level offensive player back on the blueline, I'm asking for 40 cents... someone who could play the PP with some competence, which Smith simply can't.

4. Timonen is our best offensive D and will be running the first unit. Briere might be back there with him, but you're not putting a 2nd year defenseman and a forward on top of the 1st unit unless you want to lead the league in SHG against.

5. PK is about more than individual parts... it's about coaching and positioning. the PK was already fine, we weakened the already weak to add to an established strength. Smith's greatest influence is going to be tightening up the unit at even strength, something we already saw following the moves last spring that stabilized the roster beneath Pitkanen and his admitted deficiencies.
1. I disagree with you to be honest. I'm not just talking about loyalty to a certain team. I'm talking about the "team before everything attitude" which Upshall has and which Pitkanen doesn't seem to have. Also, Pitkanen has to be seriously brain-deficient to want to leave a team like the Flyers for Edmonton. That in and of itself worries me. Pitkanen doesn't want to be with a team with loads of young talent which will be a playoff contender, but he wants to be with a mediocre team with an outside shot at the postseason. If he wanted to win, he would have wanted to stay here.

2. Did I butcher him? No. I believe I said that I wanted Gagne at 5.25-5.5 million, not at 6 which is about what he ended up signing at. Just because this board has a lot of Eagles fans who immediately turn on their best players doesn't mean I'm one of them.

3. Names?

4. My pairings were probably off. Maybe more like Timonen-Picard and Coburn-Briere. My point is that we have 2 guys who play a really good point on the PP and 2 d-man with good shots. Our PP was weakened with the Pitkanen trade, but it hasn't become a disaster like some here like to think.

5. Smith adds another experienced head to the PK and another person who plays smart hockey. Incidentally, Smith's addition makes it a lot easier to dump Gauthier. If we still had Pitkanen, we'd dump Goats, who was pretty good on the PK which would mean that Pitkanen and/or Picard would get more PK time, something I don't really want to happen.

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07-23-2007, 04:48 PM
  #112
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Pitkanen didn't want to be in Philly... where he ended up was up to Holmgren... he could have been in Philly. this team was last in the league last year, just because everyone is kneeling down at the alter of Holmgren doesn't mean we're not going to have another Boston here. we're still coached by a guy who looked completely out of his depth last year and the lineup relies heavily on depth from a bunch of young UNPROVEN players to provide competitve play below the 1st units.

this team isn't a homerun yet... it's not a SC competitor yet... it's probably the 3rd best team in this division on paper as of today.

the character assassination is mind-blowing... he's "brain dead" because he isn't thrilled to deal with this BS. nice. he's a brain dead, moronic foreigner who was such a panzy not to take the spite that Philly has thrown at him the past 6 months with good graces and may have (as there's no real proof of any of the claims about a trade demand) asked to move somewhere else. christ, what an idiot. if you had people giving you **** every day you went to class, writing crap about you in the papers, would you really not think about moving on to a different school?

Upshall, Hartnell, Gagne, etc. are playing for a check and the right to stick in this league. No more, no less. The difference between being a NHL player and an AHL star is all that's in Upshall's mind at this point in his career. Like other places, you're taking politically obvious quotes (what else do you expect Upshall to say in that position?) and turning them into some grand statement about his character. These guys will be thrown to the curb tomorrow if they don't produce... they ALL are aware of it and they will switch clubs the moment they get placed on a different roster.

you want names of young offensively-capable defenseman that play on the 20+ teams that were potential trade partners for Pitkanen? that's a long list.

from Edmonton, someone like Gilbert jumps out as someone they maybe should have looked into snagging off of them. however, Edmonton doesn't necessarily need to be the trade partner... or you can work a three-way deal that gets you the piece you want. this deal wasn't written in stone until Holmgren cut it... he chose to get a veteran D who we probably can't realistically hold past next year and a wing who may or may not be a one-hit wonder.


Last edited by Jester: 07-23-2007 at 04:56 PM.
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07-23-2007, 04:51 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
I didn't use sample sizes. Do you even read what I said? I said the PP was good for a while, then ever since it has been poor. I didn't mention sample sizes until you brought it up. The point is, after it was good for a bit, there's a MUCH MUCH larger sample size where it was BAD. And it's *still* BAD.

When I used a small sample size in the playoffs, you disqualified it by saying "Tampa played out of their minds, we had injuries, etc." Who cares? The point is, it didn't perform. And the season after the playoffs, it was worse. Then the season after that, it was STILL worse. What don't you get about this? Excuses are valid to you, aren't they? I'm calling the good percentage powerplay a hot streak - they maintained a high percentage that started to dwindle, but because of it, their "overall percentage" was still high. That's what you don't see when you take an average. It hasn't been high ever since that first half of the season when Forsberg first got here. And last year we were even worse, and ordinarily I'd be fine with that considering the season - but we have to go back nearly 3 seasons to the point where it was even 'decent.' And you consider it not a problem?

Starting good, then becoming bad, then becoming worse, to me is BAD, anyway "you" want to slice it.

sample 1: we were great the first half.

sampe 2: we sucked the second half.

our PP sucked.

that's using sample sizes to make your argument. you disqualified me pointing out how good we were based upon the totality of an 82 game schedule based upon use of sample sizes, but then have a problem when i argue from the ground you chose for the playoffs.

cute.

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07-23-2007, 05:09 PM
  #114
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I agree. I'm just saying that it's going to get very old, if it hasn't already, hearing about Pitkanen this and Pitkanen that. I almost wish the kid would come out in an interview saying he didn't want to play here and asked to be traded. That might put a muzzle on the choir.
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Beautiful. Now you expect Joni to come forward to verify the campaign of complete and utter bullcrap that is being posted about him on boards like this.

You seriously couldn't tell I was being less than serious there?

There is NO evidence that Pitkanen demanded a trade, threatened to hold out etc. There is NO evidence of what his agent may or may not have even got around to asking for in a contract before the Flyers filed for arbitration. Term or dollars.

I could have sworn that I read he had problems being boo'd by all the fans and his agent noted he didn't want to play here.

Although he is widely decried as 'stupid' and 'dumb' etc. by people who have never met him, he was smart enough to realize he would probably be traded in the off season. He was also smart enough to come halfway around the world and make millions playing hockey while we slug around at our jobs. What an idiot, er, millionaire.

I guess you can make up anything you want to assassinate someone's character - it doesn't matter if it's true. Somewhere in hell, Richard Nixon is smiling.

I guess you woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and decided to take it out on my post. Good job.

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07-23-2007, 05:50 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Pitkanen didn't want to be in Philly... where he ended up was up to Holmgren... he could have been in Philly. this team was last in the league last year, just because everyone is kneeling down at the alter of Holmgren doesn't mean we're not going to have another Boston here. we're still coached by a guy who looked completely out of his depth last year and the lineup relies heavily on depth from a bunch of young UNPROVEN players to provide competitve play below the 1st units.

this team isn't a homerun yet... it's not a SC competitor yet... it's probably the 3rd best team in this division on paper as of today.

the character assassination is mind-blowing... he's "brain dead" because he isn't thrilled to deal with this BS. nice. he's a brain dead, moronic foreigner who was such a panzy not to take the spite that Philly has thrown at him the past 6 months with good graces and may have (as there's no real proof of any of the claims about a trade demand) asked to move somewhere else. christ, what an idiot. if you had people giving you **** every day you went to class, writing crap about you in the papers, would you really not think about moving on to a different school?

Upshall, Hartnell, Gagne, etc. are playing for a check and the right to stick in this league. No more, no less. The difference between being a NHL player and an AHL star is all that's in Upshall's mind at this point in his career. Like other places, you're taking politically obvious quotes (what else do you expect Upshall to say in that position?) and turning them into some grand statement about his character. These guys will be thrown to the curb tomorrow if they don't produce... they ALL are aware of it and they will switch clubs the moment they get placed on a different roster.

you want names of young offensively-capable defenseman that play on the 20+ teams that were potential trade partners for Pitkanen? that's a long list.

from Edmonton, someone like Gilbert jumps out as someone they maybe should have looked into snagging off of them. however, Edmonton doesn't necessarily need to be the trade partner... or you can work a three-way deal that gets you the piece you want. this deal wasn't written in stone until Holmgren cut it... he chose to get a veteran D who we probably can't realistically hold past next year and a wing who may or may not be a one-hit wonder.
Time to settle down here. I never called Pitkanen brain-dead or moronic I don't think.

But seriously, after the money, most players want to win. I never called us a Cup contender and I expect us to finish 3rd in the division. However, we are certainly a playoff contender and we do have a lot of young talent. We are definitely in a better situation than Edmonton. But Pitkanen didn't want to stay with a team that's in a better situation? Why?

I don't get the school example? Joni was being lazy in the defensive end, wasn't showing any passion on the ice, and was making stupid mistakes. Now if I wasn't showing any passion or desire in school, not studying, and choosing stupid answers on the tests, I'd expect my critics (teachers) to get angry at me.

I was and am a Joni fan. He has an exceptional package of skills. But I think it's becoming clear that he didn't have the mental toughness to be here. I mean, this is Philadelphia and at the beginning of the year, Joni was making a lot of stupid mistakes. Now he was put into an extremely difficult situation. However, no one was expecting him to be +40 with 70 points. But we were expecting him to work hard and not be lazy. We weren't expecting lazy, stupid mistakes. And don't act like this part isn't true because it is.

At the end of the year, I held out a lot of hope for Joni because his play definitely improved over the last 20 games. But I do think it's pretty clear that he wasn't happy here. And that's not character assassination, it's a fact.

Also, let's look at Homer's moves.

1) Robitaille for York. Justifiable risk IMO. York had shown some potential in the past, the team was already sucking, the risk didn't work out.

2) Meyer for Zhitnik. At the time pretty good, bringing in a stabilizing d-man.

3) Zhitnik for Coburn. Clear that the Zhitnik experiment failed, dealt him for a stud prospect.

4) Foppa for 1st, 3rd, Upshall, Parent. 2 great prospects and 2 high draft picks for an injury-prone star who was UFA at the end of the year anyways.

5) 2nd rounder for Biron. A goalie for the next 4-5 years to give the scouts some time to find a good prospect for us.

6) 1st for Hartnell, Timonen. After seeing some of the FA contracts that got handed out, 6 mill ain't bad for Kimmo. 4.2 is high for Hartnell, but he does have potential to be a really good player in our system.

7) Signing Daniel Briere for 6.5 mill cap hit. Really good piece of business. Gets a us our pivot which had been our biggest weakness.

Now that's 7 pretty good moves. I'm not worshiping the guy, but the rationale behind each move is pretty good. Now you say he goes off the wall and makes an absolutely horrific move.

I personally still think that other GMs around the league got scared off by Pitkanen. I mean when someone is offering around a young d-man who skates well, has good size, and can put up 70 points, it should start a bidding war. I mean there was no real evidence of a bidding war for Pitkanen and if there was a bidding war, we should have gotten a lot more than a hit or miss prospect and an aging defenseman.

Something just does not make sense here and I personally would guess that it was something to do with Joni. I mean, why wasn't there a greater return? I'm talking about the overall value of the assets we got back? It's quite reasonable that teams with their own young offensive d-men decided that they'd rather stick with what they have instead of taking Joni.

I mean we have 4 guys (Timmonen, Coburn, Picard, Kukkonen) that can all skate well and pass the puck pretty well. While Joni would have made the PP better, we definitely got better in the defensive end and if Lupul pans out, we got better offensively as well. So we're sacrificing the PP for improved defensive end play and improved scoring from our forwards in the best case scenario of this deal. Worst case, we are more solid defensively and lose some cap space when we let J. Smith walk.

I still think that Lupul has the talent to be a legit goalscorer though. He's still really young and he does have the potential.

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07-23-2007, 06:59 PM
  #116
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'brain-deficient' is really a lovely way to be described, i think. a complement really... not impugning someone at all.

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1) Robitaille for York. Justifiable risk IMO. York had shown some potential in the past, the team was already sucking, the risk didn't work out.
Robitaille was one of the few players that was actually playing well for this club... but at the end of the day, those were two one-year deals getting swaped, and thus not consequential.

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2) Meyer for Zhitnik. At the time pretty good, bringing in a stabilizing d-man.
solid move... not flashy. he traded youth without a ton of ceiling for a veteran to help out the team.

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3) Zhitnik for Coburn. Clear that the Zhitnik experiment failed, dealt him for a stud prospect.
not sure the Zhitnik experiment failed, the team simply sucked. what was good about this deal was that Holmgren took advantage of a desperate GM and a coach who is notoriously tough on young players... this is easily the best and smartest deal that Holmgren made.

it's also a crappy team trading a veteran for the future... not exactly rocket science.

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4) Foppa for 1st, 3rd, Upshall, Parent. 2 great prospects and 2 high draft picks for an injury-prone star who was UFA at the end of the year anyways.
if you poke around this board there were multiple posters, including yours truly, Storm, and a few others predicting that exact type of return. he traded Forsberg for his value... again, this wasn't genius work. what St. Louis got for Tkachuk was genius work.

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5) 2nd rounder for Biron. A goalie for the next 4-5 years to give the scouts some time to find a good prospect for us.
i'm an advocate of this deal as well... and was at the time. you know my thoughts on Nitty, this deal was necessary and well done. it also displayed the aggressiveness that we're about to come to with Holmgren.

however, to some of us it was blatantly obvious that some kind of move needed to be made to secure a goalie... good on Holmgren for being of that opinion as well.

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6) 1st for Hartnell, Timonen. After seeing some of the FA contracts that got handed out, 6 mill ain't bad for Kimmo. 4.2 is high for Hartnell, but he does have potential to be a really good player in our system.
i don't mind the draft pick, but the Hartnell deal is potentially devestating at 6 years. the problem with both these deals isn't the money (it was what Timonen was going to get) it's the length of those cap hits... they're MASSIVE. i would have been fine overpaying to get Hartnell for a couple of years, but overpaying for production that hasn't been shown yet and potentially tying yourself to that number for 6 years is entirely too aggressive.

however, again, there's nothing genius here... other than the aggressiveness to go out and get them with a pick (which had been done before by Clarke to get Roenick, let us remember). Timonen had been identified by many... and Hartnell had been mentioned previously as well as a potential plug on the 2nd line. these aren't diamonds in the rough or anything, which is where GMs earn their laurels.

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7) Signing Daniel Briere for 6.5 mill cap hit. Really good piece of business. Gets a us our pivot which had been our biggest weakness.
i'm fine with the cap hit, but 8 years is a potential snag if he starts to slide.

these deals all look potentially good short-term, but Holmgren has sacrificed almost all of this organizations flexibility for the next 5-6 years this offseason, he BETTER be right or the next guy to come in is going to have an impossible job.

and Lupul's protection may come at the cost of someone like Upshall who could have produced effectively if given the ice... we had a plethora of young wings, have a LW and RW from our last two first rounds... a RW who will probably be with the Phantoms this coming year and is a 1st rounder as well. not huge problems, they simply necessitate future moves to make everyone fit in the best configuration... Lupul is a part that didn't really answer to any needs, which is why it doesn't make a ton of sense... i would have been happy with a pick and a prospect, but, of course, Edmonton wasn't going to give up any picks when they go about RFA hunting.


Last edited by Jester: 07-23-2007 at 07:05 PM.
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07-23-2007, 07:11 PM
  #117
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these deals all look potentially good short-term, but Holmgren has sacrificed almost all of this organizations flexibility for the next 5-6 years this offseason, he BETTER be right or the next guy to come in is going to have an impossible job.
There's a difference though between proposing moves on a message board and actually pulling them off in real life. Plus look at the deals at the same. Upshall had been shunted aside because Nashville didn't think he was good enough, same thing with Coburn. Upshall was a real wild-card when he came in here, but he really showed a lot in the last part of the season.

It was blatantly obvious that we needed a goalie, but Holmgren traded for one so we didn't have to face a bidding war, traded for the right goalie for this team, and traded for someone that quite possibly was the tipping point in the Briere sweepstakes. There's a difference between just doing a job and doing very well and Holmgren did it very well.

Also, remember that he's been director of scouting for a long time and that the Flyers have drafted pretty well over the past few years, so I think he definitely has shown that he has a decent eye for talent.

Again, if all of these moves were this easy, why isn't every GM pulling them off? The fact is that Holmgren has turned this franchise from a doormat last year to a possible playoff team this year. There's risk involved of course, but I think that most of it is pretty justifiable and remember that Hartnell and Kimmo will come off the books just as JVR, Downie, Giroux, and Nodl start to demand the big money if they ever get that far.

About Pitkanen, I'm sorry to see him go as well, but there is something weird going on here. There should have been a bidding war and we should have gotten better assets for him. After Holmgren has pretty much shown himself to be someone who won't get fleeced in a trade too easily, so I really don't think he would have taken this deal unless he really felt he had to. I mean, I still don't understand why there wasn't a bidding war over Joni and I wonder if his mental make-up had something to do with it.

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07-23-2007, 07:43 PM
  #118
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You can't make claims like that - every single one of Holmgren's moves seemed to have been calculated with an underlying vision. Without knowing what that vision is, we claim as if we're the only ones that see weaknesses in the team and conclude that only the ones we see matter.
I agree. I remember myself, and others here, being less than thrilled at trading Meyer (youth) for Zhitnik (old), but then Zhitnik turned into Coburn and everything now looks OK.

I don't think it's a fluke that we haven't seen a press conference from Lupul yet.

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i'll crack the mystery of Holmgren's moves this summer: make the playoffs next year.
And you disagree with this philosophy?

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in the seasons ahead we're fine with some guys with pop offensively... but not this coming year really... nor are any of those guys offensively dynamic defenseman, which is frustrating to lack... once again. the defense will be very solid this upcoming year... but we're going to NEED our forwards to run the show offensively, they won't be getting much help.

the issue of bottle-neck is a good one to have, but we're now setup with a non-trivial salary cap problem that could present itself next season. that's troublesome... we also gave a TON of cash out this summer on very long deals, which could create problems... Hartnell has a flat out SCARY contract given what he's produced thus far in the league... it could work out great, but he hasn't earned that annual number yet, so it could come back to bite us badly.

Holmgren did an excellent job in the season... but he may have done exactly what i feared he would do when he hit the UFA market... blow his load trying to win next year and creating problems in the long run, when this team was setting up to be excellent in 2-3 years.
Are you saying that the Flyers now have no chance at being "excellent in 2-3 years" because we traded Pitkanen? I sure hope not, becaue that is just plain laughable.

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Beautiful. Now you expect Joni to come forward to verify the campaign of complete and utter bullcrap that is being posted about him on boards like this.

There is NO evidence that Pitkanen demanded a trade, threatened to hold out etc. There is NO evidence of what his agent may or may not have even got around to asking for in a contract before the Flyers filed for arbitration. Term or dollars.
There is also no evidence that he didn't. What we do know is that he sold or gave away just about everything he owned in Philly. I don't think it's going out on a limb, as an outside observer, to conclude that the boy had no intention of playing another game for the Flyers.


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1. No player wants to be anything more than a NHL player before they get wherever... and most of them are fighting just to keep that dream alive. The loyalty to the crest doesn't exist nearly as much as you seem to think. Upshall would be happy to be a Ranger or Devil tomorrow, just as much as a Flyer.

2. Gagne was getting BUTCHERED on this board a year ago today for negotiating a fair contract as RFA... so I find it humorous he's getting commended now.
1-Oh boy, here we go again. I will agree that most young men want to play NHL anywhere, but I truly hope you re-think "the loyalty to the crest doesn't exist..." comment you made. Because if you stand by it, I will lose all respect for your hockey knowledge. Don't the Flyers have something in the dressing room that says something like, "The crest on the front means more than the name on the back"? You have seriously got to be kidding me about this one, Jester. Players should play for the crest on the front of the jersey, when they don't, your team $ucks, no two ways about it. Research what players like Clarke and Barber, and yes, even Fedoruk say about the crest on the front of the jersey. You think Briere wanted to play here for the name on the back of his jersey? 'Cause I hate to tell ya, but that name stays the same no matter what city/team you play for. Briere chose to play here because it is a team that is rich in history....winning history. No matter how bad we $ucked this past season, the Flyers' crest holds a certain mystique and aura to it. When that crest means nothing to you as a player....then it's time to move on.

2-If you are referring to me with your Gagne comment, than you are mistaken. My only problem with Simon last summer was when the rumors were saying he/they were squabbling over a few hundred thousand dollars. At that time, he did not deserve more than Forsberg....I'll stand by that comment any day of the week and twice on Sunday. He is getting "commended" now because he has earned the respect. The best thing that may have happened to him was surviving this crappy season and the 10,000 centers he had to endure throughout the season. And PS-Simon didn't earn that respect by whining about how he was treated by the fans, or in the press, last summer. He went out and proved he deserved every dime of that contract--and then some.

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07-23-2007, 07:53 PM
  #119
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i don't mind the draft pick, but the Hartnell deal is potentially devestating at 6 years. the problem with both these deals isn't the money (it was what Timonen was going to get) it's the length of those cap hits... they're MASSIVE. i would have been fine overpaying to get Hartnell for a couple of years, but overpaying for production that hasn't been shown yet and potentially tying yourself to that number for 6 years is entirely too aggressive.

i'm fine with the cap hit, but 8 years is a potential snag if he starts to slide.

these deals all look potentially good short-term, but Holmgren has sacrificed almost all of this organizations flexibility for the next 5-6 years this offseason, he BETTER be right or the next guy to come in is going to have an impossible job.

I understand your concern at the length of these contracts, unfortuntately, sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get the player your team needs. I also am not the least bit concerned about the organization's flexibility. The cap will go up, and do not underestimate the moves a GM looking to get his team to the playoffs will make at the trade deadline.

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07-23-2007, 08:05 PM
  #120
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I agree. I remember myself, and others here, being less than thrilled at trading Meyer (youth) for Zhitnik (old), but then Zhitnik turned into Coburn and everything now looks OK.
we gave up mediocre talent to get a decent vet... there was nothing bad about that deal. the Zhitnik flip was ingenious.

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And you disagree with this philosophy?
In the salary cap environment? yes, i do have a problem with that philosophy. the fact that you don't merely proves that you don't follow sports with salary caps.

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Are you saying that the Flyers now have no chance at being "excellent in 2-3 years" because we traded Pitkanen? I sure hope not, becaue that is just plain laughable.
The Pitkanen deal has nothing to do with 2-3 years being problematic, though he would have been entering his prime at that point. The deals that could cause massive headaches in 2-3 years are Briere, Timonen, and most especially Hartnell. Holmgren has dumped a giant cap figure on this roster for the next 6 years that if it doesn't work out, will be hard to manage.

Hartnell, if he doesn't rise to his contract, is untradeable.

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There is also no evidence that he didn't. What we do know is that he sold or gave away just about everything he owned in Philly. I don't think it's going out on a limb, as an outside observer, to conclude that the boy had no intention of playing another game for the Flyers.
Again, it's one thing to threaten... it's another thing to walk away from 2.5M dollars to play hockey. I agree, he wasn't pleased here... doesn't mean he HAD to be traded, and if he was going to be traded it doesn't mean Lupul and Smith had to be the return. The fact that organization gets carte blanche because he sold his crap is stupid.

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1-Oh boy, here we go again. I will agree that most young men want to play NHL anywhere, but I truly hope you re-think "the loyalty to the crest doesn't exist..." comment you made. Because if you stand by it, I will lose all respect for your hockey knowledge. Don't the Flyers have something in the dressing room that says something like, "The crest on the front means more than the name on the back"? You have seriously got to be kidding me about this one, Jester. Players should play for the crest on the front of the jersey, when they don't, your team $ucks, no two ways about it. Research what players like Clarke and Barber, and yes, even Fedoruk say about the crest on the front of the jersey. You think Briere wanted to play here for the name on the back of his jersey? 'Cause I hate to tell ya, but that name stays the same no matter what city/team you play for. Briere chose to play here because it is a team that is rich in history....winning history. No matter how bad we $ucked this past season, the Flyers' crest holds a certain mystique and aura to it. When that crest means nothing to you as a player....then it's time to move on.
the quote on the Flyers dressing room is "we supply everything but the guts". you're quoting the movie miracle.

i'm so sad that you'll lose all respect for my hockey knowledge, because all you're proving is your complete lack of knowledge for how sports work in the modern world. the environment that Clarke and Barber operated in were completely different... and Fedoruk had no problems moving on from the Flyers when they didn't meet his contractual demands, how are his quotes looking now? funny how money changes things in the summer.

how did loyalty to the crest work out for Ryan Smyth? he ended up in the Isle... then showed so much loyalty to the crest to sign with the Avs in the offseason.

look at the last 10 offseasons... how much loyalty to the crest have you seen in UFAs on the open markets in the NHL? they go where the contracts are. Briere chose to play here because it was a combination of good situation and much lower taxes than Montreal... the man signed an 8 year contract that will give him 8 million next season, lets not make it out like he came here for peanuts.

however, beyond the AMPLE evidence the past 15 years to contradict your opinion that players have some deep desire to play for one specific team born in them that allows them to overlook compensation, lets deal with the fact that the actions of the organization prove the stupidity of this view... as they continually display the fact that at the end of the day they're about themselves when it comes to winning.

how about Jeremy Roenick, who was an absolute warrior for this team... who i watched puking his guts out because of post-concussion syndrome on the bench during OT of game 6 against Tampa Bay... the next offseason that mattered they had a chance to sign Peter Forsberg and asked Roenick to wave his NTC so they could swap him out.

nice loyalty there.

John Leclair... his contract would have been an albatross here... goodbye.

it's a JOB. it's a BUSINESS. they're loyal to the crest until the day their contract is up... they're employees. wake up. most of these players could get traded tomorrow and know it, which is why they ask for NTC and NMC in their contracts. that's not because of loyalty to the crest, that's because they understand it's a business and don't feel like moving their families because their employer decides where they should live in order to improve their respective team.

they play for their themselves. they play for their teammates. they play for the coaches, and whomever else. they do, in fact, play for the jersey they're wearing that moment. however, that jersey could be different the next day and they'd accept that.

go read Smith's quotes to prove my point.

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2-If you are referring to me with your Gagne comment, than you are mistaken. My only problem with Simon last summer was when the rumors were saying he/they were squabbling over a few hundred thousand dollars. At that time, he did not deserve more than Forsberg....I'll stand by that comment any day of the week and twice on Sunday. He is getting "commended" now because he has earned the respect. The best thing that may have happened to him was surviving this crappy season and the 10,000 centers he had to endure throughout the season. And PS-Simon didn't earn that respect by whining about how he was treated by the fans, or in the press, last summer. He went out and proved he deserved every dime of that contract--and then some.
your problem with Gagne extended into the season with continual harping about how he wasn't producing to your level of expectation. when me and mike proved you wrong at the time you blathered on about how he needed to prove, and then you apologized after the season that you were wrong about him.

he earned it the year before, people were simply blind to it.

however, you weren't alone... it's life. Gagne did what was best for him, and organization did what was best for itself, and they settled on a fair compensation number. it's what happens in every other employment situation in the world.

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07-23-2007, 08:07 PM
  #121
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I understand your concern at the length of these contracts, unfortuntately, sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get the player your team needs. I also am not the least bit concerned about the organization's flexibility. The cap will go up, and do not underestimate the moves a GM looking to get his team to the playoffs will make at the trade deadline.
the cap isn't going to go up too much more... they're about to balance out. they went into Escrow this past season for about a 3% clip on the players salaries. it'll stabilize considerably from here on out most likely... you might see a bump with the new jerseys and whatnot, but the cap isn't going to rise forever at the rate it has been.

deadline deals to improve playoff teams are not going to be picking up huge long-term contracts unless they have a ton of flexibility, or the player is earning the money (in which case you don't want to deal them anyway).

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07-23-2007, 08:12 PM
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you're quoting the movie miracle.
the flyers have that miracle quote in their dressing room

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07-23-2007, 08:13 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Nicto10 View Post
the flyers have that miracle quote in their dressing room
ugh, that's such a cliche. the guts one is much better.

doesn't change the fact that it doesn't translate into reality when push comes to shove in either direction of the relationship.

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07-23-2007, 08:40 PM
  #124
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Jester, Jester, Jester, let me give you a little history on me. I am the youngest of four and I have been teaching learning disabled children for 18 years, your attempts at personal insults mean absolutely nothing to me. I have thicker skin than probably anyone you've met in your life.

You claim I know nothing about sports for the last 15 years, but yet you claim to know more than Holmgren. Righty-o there.

Because you cite examples of when management screwed the players does not mean that players shouldn't be playing for the crest. I'm fairly certain that both sides are fully aware that it's a business, but my point was and is, when that crest means nothing to you....when the sight of it makes you sick to your stomach....then it's time to move on.

You use JR as an example and while he was a warrior for this team (why I always did and always will love him) as he himself said, "I'd trade me for Forsberg too." You say you know that this is a business, then you can't get mad when management makes moves you disagree with. If it's OK for a player to leave for money (as you claim time and time again) then it has to be OK for management to remove the albatross from the team. You can't have it both ways, and that's how you seem to want it.

Ryan Smith is the perfect example of how one player's loyalty meant absolutely nothing to an overzealous GM, but are you saying Smith was wrong to feel the way he did? stupid? When these players hit the ice, that crest should be the most important thing in their lives, and because of those hours spent feeling that way, that crest should become a part of their lives...a part of them if you will.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that Joni didn't want to be here? Personally, I think forcing him to stay where he didn't want to be would've been the biggest injustice of them all. I hope he thrives in Edmonton and I wish him all the best in the world, as long as he isn't scoring that GW goal against us in game 7 of the Cup Finals.

I still see absolutely nothing wrong with Holmgren attempting to put together a team to make it to the playoffs next year. You tried to turn that into a personal attack against me, but I will ask, what kind of fan of a team doesn't want their GM to field (or attempt to field) a playoff worthy team? We should continue to suck because there's now a salary cap in place? I disagree 100%. At the end of the season we had $20 million in salary cap space--we used it, end of story. It's not like we were some team on the bubble that needed to tweak a position or two. We were the worst team in hockey, we needed to upgrade A LOT in A LOT of areas. Would you have been happier if we left $5-$10 million on the table for the future?

As for Gagne, again it is you who is mistaken. You said he'd be a PPG player, when he wasn't I merely pointed it out to you. It wasn't my expectations I was referring to, it was yours. You said he'd finish with 40+ goals and for a good, long time it didn't look like he would, but he did and I gave you props for that. You see Jester, unlike you, I can admit when I am wrong. My fear with Gagne was the possibility of him sitting out over a few hundred thousand/year, and that's the type of crap I cannot tolerate from a player. Simon proved himself to me, and others I'm sure. They'll still be games when I want to string him up I'm certain, but that is what being a sports fan is all about. Ya gotta take the good with the bad.

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07-23-2007, 08:43 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Nicto10 View Post
the flyers have that miracle quote in their dressing room
Thank you. For a minute I thought I was losing my mind, but I knew I just saw it in some youtube video or something. Actually, it was probably in something someone posted here.

I know it would cause a virtual riot with the jersey manufacturers, but I think everyone should adopt the Joe Paterno philosophy--no names on the backs of jerseys.

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