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Why Albany sticks in the AHL....

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Old
09-22-2011, 12:53 PM
  #1
RFA
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Why Albany sticks in the AHL....

Almost 10,000 for a Wednesday night NHL preseason game......

http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/de...-9420/9375/375

In the mid-90s this wasn't rare for a Rats' Saturday game.......

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09-22-2011, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RFA View Post
Almost 10,000 for a Wednesday night NHL preseason game......

http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/de...-9420/9375/375

In the mid-90s this wasn't rare for a Rats' Saturday game.......
So you are saying that because an NHL preseason game in Albany that drew almost 10,000 and that the Rats used to draw close to this in the 90's is the reason why there is currently an AHL team in Albany?

Sorry, but the reality is that an AHL team in Albany hasn't averaged over 4000 fans since the 05-06 season and, imo, the only reason why there is a team there is because the Devils were offered a cheaper lease there than Lowell was willing to offer.

I get it that you may live in the area and are happy to have an AHL team there, but there's no need to overstate the interest in AHL hockey in Albany. Albany has consistently finished in the bottom quarter of AHL attendance for the last decade or so. 1 preseason game and attendance 15 years ago is irrelevant.

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09-22-2011, 03:26 PM
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And for how much of that decade or so was the Albany team in the bottom quarter of the standings? Like it or not, such extended awfulness takes it's toll on a fanbase.

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09-22-2011, 05:21 PM
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And for how much of that decade or so was the Albany team in the bottom quarter of the standings? Like it or not, such extended awfulness takes it's toll on a fanbase.
I'd buy that argument if they managed to draw well in the 09-10 season when they finished the regular season in 2nd place, but even then they drew only 3700 per game.

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09-22-2011, 05:36 PM
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Nobody is "entitled" to a team. I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. Nothing really IMO. I think Albany might be a DECENT market for the ECHL to explore. Infact soon after this experiment in Adirondack with the Phantoms is over I could see both being ECHL bound. Not sure that isn't a better option now. Both leagues get raided by the callups but checkout that article I recently posted in the ECHL section about the differences between the ECHL, AHL and NHL. The difference between the ECHL and AHL is that the ECHL teams try to make money and by doing so they field the best roster possible. In the AHL with all the NHL involvement you have very little say on how things are done. Now please don't say i'm saying the ECHL is better skilled or anything(though I think it's arguable that the players/play within the 2 leagues are as close as it's ever been)

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09-22-2011, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Green Men Rule View Post
Nobody is "entitled" to a team. I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. Nothing really IMO. I think Albany might be a DECENT market for the ECHL to explore. Infact soon after this experiment in Adirondack with the Phantoms is over I could see both being ECHL bound. Not sure that isn't a better option now. Both leagues get raided by the callups but checkout that article I recently posted in the ECHL section about the differences between the ECHL, AHL and NHL. The difference between the ECHL and AHL is that the ECHL teams try to make money and by doing so they field the best roster possible. In the AHL with all the NHL involvement you have very little say on how things are done. Now please don't say i'm saying the ECHL is better skilled or anything(though I think it's arguable that the players/play within the 2 leagues are as close as it's ever been)
As long as the devils owns the ahl team in albany, how the team draws is irrelevant. Once their lease is up, then we'll see what happens with the ahl and Albany. That said I don't see the echl going to either city you have mentioned. The fans of glens falls already showed that they won't support AA hockey and I don't see albany drawing much better at that level (much like bingo rejecting AA hockey there).

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09-22-2011, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
As long as the devils owns the ahl team in albany, how the team draws is irrelevant. Once their lease is up, then we'll see what happens with the ahl and Albany. That said I don't see the echl going to either city you have mentioned. The fans of glens falls already showed that they won't support AA hockey and I don't see albany drawing much better at that level (much like bingo rejecting AA hockey there).
Good points pelts. The thing I will never understand is why people who have had AAA Hockey can't take AA Hockey. The difference is minimal. The difference is a lot more mental than anything. Yes it's faster each level you go, I won't deny that but because of that more thinking is required. Guys that dominate AA have the skills to play in the AHL, it's partially a numbers game that shuffles them out and of course the mental ability. Some of them just can't get that part down.

It's a shame for Adirondack. I think a team there in any league sounds good. I just don't think a long term idea would be the AHL. I think they need a new arena personally but good luck with that happening in this economy.

As for Albany I just think it's a worn out market with nothing left.

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09-22-2011, 06:24 PM
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All this shows is the potential to draw big crowds for pro hockey is still here. Nothing more. That hope, in my opinion, is why a team has remained (since about 2003 or 4).

It shows that Albany's not a worn out market really, there were close to 10,000 in the barn on a weeknight for what averaged out to an AHL level game.

There's a clause in the county's (who owns the building) contract with the management company that stipulates there must be an AHL tenant. I guess that's the real reason, and it could lead to some interesting times if the Devils do jump ship.

The Devils actual attendance in the second half of the season was acceptable, there were many crowds in the 5-6,000 range. Not bad for a last-place team.



As always seems to be the case, an involved party ruined the night for the fans.....

http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/ar...o-belber/9414/

The reports were correct, the lines were inexcusable. It was a very thirsty crowd, which should not have been a shock.


Last edited by RFA: 09-22-2011 at 06:33 PM. Reason: clarity
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09-22-2011, 07:00 PM
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All this shows is the potential to draw big crowds for pro hockey is still here. Nothing more. That hope, in my opinion, is why a team has remained (since about 2003 or 4).

It shows that Albany's not a worn out market really, there were close to 10,000 in the barn on a weeknight for what averaged out to an AHL level game.

There's a clause in the county's (who owns the building) contract with the management company that stipulates there must be an AHL tenant. I guess that's the real reason, and it could lead to some interesting times if the Devils do jump ship.

The Devils actual attendance in the second half of the season was acceptable, there were many crowds in the 5-6,000 range. Not bad for a last-place team.



As always seems to be the case, an involved party ruined the night for the fans.....

http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/ar...o-belber/9414/

The reports were correct, the lines were inexcusable. It was a very thirsty crowd, which should not have been a shock.
Ahh, I love these people who write these ridiculous clauses. "There must be a team period" "There must be a team in certain league" and what happens if neither is possible? Albany is lucky the Devils decided to stroll into town and paint the town Red.

I wasn't there(nor did I care to watch said game)but WHAT IF the people attending were a lot of people who wouldn't reguarly attend Albany Devils Games? Probably a fair amount. Maybe you even had out of towners attending. But it IS the NHL. It's a better watch than the AHL. That may have been an even bigger reason people showed. IMO it doesn't show anything, not comparable. It's the NHL. It's two geographical teams within the area that the locals root for. Not sure the Rangers fans who showed would support a devils product(kinda like the Flyers nonsense that existed in Trenton) You had better hoped people would show for that game. But it means nothing about the narket as a whole.

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09-22-2011, 07:50 PM
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Oh boy, I'm sure Aramark have driven more fans away than the terrible hockey. Atrocious quality and sevice.

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09-22-2011, 07:51 PM
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If there's not an AHL team, they'd have to re-negotiate the lease somehow, obviously at the county's favor. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, and I do think it could be interesting.

Again, it's pretty obvious that most of the people at the game last night didn't go to a lot of Albany games last year, or the Devils reported and actual attendance would be higher. It doesn't really matter where they're from- 9,600 on a Wednesday night in Albany for hockey is just that, and an AHL team would be happy to get 1/3 of that.


I'm not saying that the Devils are going to sell that many seats now, I'm just showing that Albany, under the correct conditions, can be a successful market.

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09-22-2011, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFA View Post
If there's not an AHL team, they'd have to re-negotiate the lease somehow, obviously at the county's favor. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, and I do think it could be interesting.

Again, it's pretty obvious that most of the people at the game last night didn't go to a lot of Albany games last year, or the Devils reported and actual attendance would be higher. It doesn't really matter where they're from- 9,600 on a Wednesday night in Albany for hockey is just that, and an AHL team would be happy to get 1/3 of that.


I'm not saying that the Devils are going to sell that many seats now, I'm just showing that Albany, under the correct conditions, can be a successful market.
One game a successful market does not make.

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09-23-2011, 08:15 AM
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10,000 fans go to see Zach Parise, Ilya Kovalchuk and Henrik Lundquist. 4,000 fans go to see Brad Mills, Steve Zalewski and Peter Harrold.

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09-23-2011, 11:53 AM
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10,000 fans go to see Zach Parise, Ilya Kovalchuk and Henrik Lundquist. 4,000 fans go to see Brad Mills, Steve Zalewski and Peter Harrold.
Not even.

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09-23-2011, 12:01 PM
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I haven't said it's successful now. The POTENTIAL is there. That's it, nothing more. I know most of you guys haven't followed this league that long, but in the 90's that kind of crowd was common in Albany. Wednesday showed the POTENTIAL is still there, nothing more. Yes, it has been a while. NO, I do not expect it this year, if ever again. But these flashes of hope are why teams have stuck around.

Here's the list of past NHL games in Albany:

http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/9342/9342/

10 seasons since the last one, those numbers weren't very good as most people in the area felt they were Rats games at higher prices. The only difference being they wore NJ jerseys.

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09-23-2011, 01:47 PM
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I haven't said it's successful now. The POTENTIAL is there. That's it, nothing more. I know most of you guys haven't followed this league that long, but in the 90's that kind of crowd was common in Albany. Wednesday showed the POTENTIAL is still there, nothing more. Yes, it has been a while. NO, I do not expect it this year, if ever again. But these flashes of hope are why teams have stuck around.

Here's the list of past NHL games in Albany:

http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/9342/9342/

10 seasons since the last one, those numbers weren't very good as most people in the area felt they were Rats games at higher prices. The only difference being they wore NJ jerseys.
The thing is thats minor league hockey for you. it was a different ball game in the late 90's/very early 2000's. Good economy and the game was different. Now the focus has become far too much on catering the higher ups than playing for the fans in that city. It's just not as enjoyable.

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09-23-2011, 02:29 PM
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The thing is thats minor league hockey for you. it was a different ball game in the late 90's/very early 2000's. Good economy and the game was different. Now the focus has become far too much on catering the higher ups than playing for the fans in that city. It's just not as enjoyable.
I agree with you. Just because 1 NHL preseason game drew well doesn't mean anything with regards to how well a minor league team can potentially draw.

Where I will disagree with you is your comment about how the game has changed. IMO that has little to nothing to do with the lack of attendance in Albany. The economy has had much more of an impact on attendance across the league more than anything else.

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09-23-2011, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
I agree with you. Just because 1 NHL preseason game drew well doesn't mean anything with regards to how well a minor league team can potentially draw.

Where I will disagree with you is your comment about how the game has changed. IMO that has little to nothing to do with the lack of attendance in Albany. The economy has had much more of an impact on attendance across the league more than anything else.
I could agree with that. The economy in Upstate NY blows. But I would say the game at the minor league level has gotten progressively worse. More and more spare parts every year from the ECHL and for the ECHL the FHL/SPHL. Maybe it wouldn't be so much of a difference, but the fact is when guys are called up they come up in a different role(almost 3rd to 4th line)they are almost setup to not be noticed/a factor. I do think the emphasis on winning has decreased(especially with NHL Ownership)Albany would fit in this description. Some would say it would inspire to win and I agree it could but also the desire decreases when you know you can do whatever you want and have full control and for that you can play guys where you want in the lineup and such. I know the logic seems flawed why if you owned an AHL team that you wouldn't care but minor league sports isn't a money maker, your almost destined to automatically lose money.

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09-23-2011, 06:24 PM
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I don't think you can use a NHL pre-season game to show that a market has 'potential'. It a one time novelty event that will bring out a few folks, but a sample size of one doesn't prove anything.

Good for Albany, but I wouldn't get too hyped up about anything.

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09-24-2011, 09:06 AM
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The reasons the attendace in Albany went down:

1. The team stunk.
2. The team stunk.
3. The team stunk.
4. Front office/Arena incompetence.

The attendance went down around 2000-01, had nothing to do with the economy. It has been basically level for 10+ years after that, and I would bet that the Devils SOLD more tickets than the Rats had in 10 years, no matter what they announced.

I have worked for one of the minor league baseball teams in the area, and they looked at the Albany Yankees averaging 5,000 plus in the 80's (yes 80's) and use it as a goal. The Devils front office last year used the huge crowds back in 94-98 as a goal. They asked some of our friends to move their seats next to each other (they had a "coat seat" in between so when they have 10,000+ the row will be easier to sell.

I'm not saying that personally I expect this to happen, I doubt it will. I don't think there is any logic either. That's probably part of the reason I'm no longer in that business. It is how the front offices think though.

If the team ends up having multiple NHL All-Stars like the Rats used to, and wins 25 in a row in a relatively new arena, with a family paying about $40 to get in- then who knows.

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09-24-2011, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RFA View Post
The reasons the attendace in Albany went down:

1. The team stunk.
2. The team stunk.
3. The team stunk.
4. Front office/Arena incompetence.

The attendance went down around 2000-01, had nothing to do with the economy. It has been basically level for 10+ years after that, and I would bet that the Devils SOLD more tickets than the Rats had in 10 years, no matter what they announced.

I have worked for one of the minor league baseball teams in the area, and they looked at the Albany Yankees averaging 5,000 plus in the 80's (yes 80's) and use it as a goal. The Devils front office last year used the huge crowds back in 94-98 as a goal. They asked some of our friends to move their seats next to each other (they had a "coat seat" in between so when they have 10,000+ the row will be easier to sell.

I'm not saying that personally I expect this to happen, I doubt it will. I don't think there is any logic either. That's probably part of the reason I'm no longer in that business. It is how the front offices think though.

If the team ends up having multiple NHL All-Stars like the Rats used to, and wins 25 in a row in a relatively new arena, with a family paying about $40 to get in- then who knows.
If you know the Devils track record #4 on your list should only get worse.

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09-24-2011, 10:27 AM
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1-3 can't get worse.

In fairness though, the office has done a great job getting coporate support in the area. Everything they promised STH last year, they delivered, and it was beyond what I expected. Very classy parties, nice pint glass as a year end gift (I was expecting someting cheap and plastic in a white cardboard box, imported from China). They just didn't deliver many wins......

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09-24-2011, 12:18 PM
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1-3 can't get worse.

In fairness though, the office has done a great job getting coporate support in the area. Everything they promised STH last year, they delivered, and it was beyond what I expected. Very classy parties, nice pint glass as a year end gift (I was expecting someting cheap and plastic in a white cardboard box, imported from China). They just didn't deliver many wins......
And when was the last time a devils ahl club did that?

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09-24-2011, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Men Rule View Post
If you know the Devils track record #4 on your list should only get worse.
ABSOLUTELY, false, GMR, May I ask you HOW MANY AHL games you have seen, because you think way more than you post it's so factually inaccurate why you are in a position of power on this forum is INEXCUSEABLE.....

Do you understand, that it was the Islanders franchise that was playing @ RPI, that was bought by Michael Catenucci, then sold to Al Lawrence, then to Walter Robb/CDS (NJ sold their franchise to Calgary, after the ill-fated attempt of the IHL Choppers, which started the rivalry in the Cap District between Albany & Adirondack, until, the ill-fated proposal of Rossford, Ohio, which essentially ended Detroit's stay in Glens Falls, as the ARW, were suspended, then sold to SSE to become the SA Rampage.... the Devils were in Utica, and is now the Abbotsford Heat, after stints in Saint John, Omaha, and QC.... Lowell has been a central franchise in much of this, since it was their franchise the Devils bought, even the Islanders went there, before Bridgeport was even considered, that also helped create Manchester in a way...

where were you when Lowell was under turmoil and U-Mass Lowell wanted more control and wanted the pro franchise gone, which was achieved as a result of this transfer of the Devils back to the Cap District without the local tie of CDS.... no one knew that Trenton was a part of the Devil master plan, and we've seen how that blew up when no one wanted to buy that franchise.... If New Jersey hadn't seen Lowell was available and Carolina hadn't been interested in Albany, would there be a team in Charlotte, for MHK Holdings, to acquire said license, so how does #4 translate

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09-24-2011, 02:18 PM
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ABSOLUTELY, false, GMR, May I ask you HOW MANY AHL games you have seen, because you think way more than you post it's so factually inaccurate why you are in a position of power on this forum is INEXCUSEABLE.....

Do you understand, that it was the Islanders franchise that was playing @ RPI, that was bought by Michael Catenucci, then sold to Al Lawrence, then to Walter Robb/CDS (NJ sold their franchise to Calgary, after the ill-fated attempt of the IHL Choppers, which started the rivalry in the Cap District between Albany & Adirondack, until, the ill-fated proposal of Rossford, Ohio, which essentially ended Detroit's stay in Glens Falls, as the ARW, were suspended, then sold to SSE to become the SA Rampage.... the Devils were in Utica, and is now the Abbotsford Heat, after stints in Saint John, Omaha, and QC.... Lowell has been a central franchise in much of this, since it was their franchise the Devils bought, even the Islanders went there, before Bridgeport was even considered, that also helped create Manchester in a way...

where were you when Lowell was under turmoil and U-Mass Lowell wanted more control and wanted the pro franchise gone, which was achieved as a result of this transfer of the Devils back to the Cap District without the local tie of CDS.... no one knew that Trenton was a part of the Devil master plan, and we've seen how that blew up when no one wanted to buy that franchise.... If New Jersey hadn't seen Lowell was available and Carolina hadn't been interested in Albany, would there be a team in Charlotte, for MHK Holdings, to acquire said license, so how does #4 translate
To translate this drival it goes something like this:
I don't like you because you actually make sense and that is something i don't do nor do i like. So everytime you post I'm going to try my best to confuse the sjit out of you with what i say, in fact most of the time i don't even know what it is that I'm saying, but don't worry that doesn't and won't stop me.I am also the king of the run on sentence on this foreum and i shall be treated with all the dignity that my position is warrented.
Now to answer what you actually said it is very easy...you see the study that was done back in the 1880's on this very subject has proven that the cintrifical motion of the cylineric object on the ice is in direct conflict with the actual motion that we see, therefore this causes the mind to see what is not there thus causing tremendous headaches to the average person thus rendering them unable and incapable of attending said events that use this cylinderic object....I myself being of superior intellect of course am totally immune to this phenom that occurs when a round object is sent in the other direction by a semi-flat enlonged object.

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