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What does Penner mean for us?

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Old
07-27-2007, 08:40 AM
  #76
MojoJojo
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
And who's the young C in our system waiting to take over the 2nd spot? Oh yea, we don't have any.
Richards. Hell, I preferr Richards of the two and think he's even the better offensive player. Umberger takes over as 3rd line C. We still have Downie and Potulny. Seriously, losing a center is not the end of the world. At over 4 mil we could even dip into free agency and get a proven, perhaps even more consistent player than Carter. Why pay inflated UFA prices for RFA's?

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07-27-2007, 08:51 AM
  #77
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RFA offer sheets make far too much sense to remain an unused aspect of the CBA. In the non-salary cap world they had the accusation of raising salary to scare them off... they didn't want to be the 'bad guy'. Salary is guaranteed now, so they can't screw that up... so that removes one block. Beyond that, the ability to poach players off of teams with cap problems is an added benefity of the salary cap to making these types of moves.

Just because GMs haven't caught onto this rational approach to the salary cap just yet doesn't mean they will. The asinine reactions whenever an offer sheet comes out merely proves the point that half of these guys haven't really thought this crap through. If Buffalo had approached their offseason with even an iota of common sense they would have had Vanek and one of Briere/Drury taken care of before it got to the point where they lost two and got screwed on the other.

Learn from their mistakes.
And offer sheets aren't anything new and yet the floodgates haven't opened. Maybe they will, but all this chicken little talk (by everybody, not you in particular) is thoroughly annoying. Am I the only person bringing up that A) you're all assuming that none of them sign contracts before the season is up and B) Holmgren won't take them, or at least one of them, to arbitration?

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This isn't about loyaly, or lack of loyalty. It's about a JOB and being compensated for your job. If someone offers you a raise, do you turn it down? As I argued in the other thread, this is the simple fact of how these players and organizations approach this situation: Employee and Employer. People can get huffy about it if they want, but all of these players would be STUPID not to sign this type of offer and it isn't a negative aspect of their character in the slightest.
It depends on how much, and where. Personally I'd take a nice raise in a better place to live. But a small raise over what my current employer is offering in a place I have no real intention of working? I'll pass.

This doomsday scenario **** has got to stop. The Flyers will pay their players if they're worth it.

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Holmgren should stay away from arbitration if possible... deals in-season are the best way to go about getting these things done as arbitration is a scary thing.
Arbitration prevents a team from offering a RFA an offer sheet. So if the thing you fear is an offer sheet, then arbitration should be anything but scary.


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07-27-2007, 08:53 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Potulny is still a huge wild-card at this point. I'd be very hesitant about penciling him in as our 2nd line C next year.
He's more likely to be a career AHLer at this point than a 2C next season.

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07-27-2007, 09:39 AM
  #79
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He's more likely to be a career AHLer at this point than a 2C next season.
Who said anything about him being a 2C?

if Richards or Carter are signed to offer sheets, rather than panick and try to dump salary to keep them both, we let one walk and take the compensation, sign the other, and then promote someone from within like Potulny or Downie to take over on the fourth line.

BTW, Potulny is NOT a career AHLer. At worst he is a fourth line player in the NHL with top line potential, and should see at least a good five seasons in the big leagues.

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07-27-2007, 10:37 AM
  #80
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I have to agree with Dr. Love, the negativity here is ridiculous. We haven't even played this season yet and we're already panicing over who may or may not be garnered an offer sheet next summer? If this team comes together, like we all hope they will, this season, neither Carter or Richards will want to leave. They will understand that they are on the brink of something great, and because of their awesome play, they will have a big part in it.

The simple fact is that a player has to want to sign an offer sheet. Many here are ASSuming that they're both going to jump at the chance to, and I disagree. They understand the game of hockey and they also have to be smart enough to understand that all these moves we made this spring and summer had their development in mind--they are both fully expected to play a big part in our future. They're not going anywhere.

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07-27-2007, 10:50 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
Once again, here is my point, argue this or you agree with me. Perry and Carter both get an offer sheet tomorrow, Perry's would be for more. That is damn near a fact.
Wow, total speculation is a now 'fact.'

It's damn near fact that every team in the league would take Carter over Perry at this point, straight up - including Anaheim.

Disprove that 'fact'.

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07-27-2007, 11:07 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
Who said anything about him being a 2C?

if Richards or Carter are signed to offer sheets, rather than panick and try to dump salary to keep them both, we let one walk and take the compensation, sign the other, and then promote someone from within like Potulny or Downie to take over on the fourth line.

BTW, Potulny is NOT a career AHLer. At worst he is a fourth line player in the NHL with top line potential, and should see at least a good five seasons in the big leagues.
Downie is not a centre. Never has been. He's a RW - mostly because he doesn't skate well enough to play centre in Jr., let alone the NHL.

Roger's Pancreas did mention that he'd take the picks and 'play Potulny over Carter' - that's what I was referring to.

We'll see if Potulny is a regular NHL player - this year or ever. Provided he signs a contract with the Flyers, he still has to have a very impressive training camp to even make the team as the 13th forward, never mind a starter.

The team thought so highly of him and Ruzicka they made them go to rookie conditioning camp again - and by all the accounts I've read on here and elsewhere, Potulny wasn't a stand out at rookie camp (anyone who was there could help clarify this).

I'm not against Potulny, but he's typical of the kind of player who ends up being a career AHLer:

- lots of talent and good hands in college/Jr
- not very big
- not very fast
- not particularly skilled defensively

He showed promise last year, picked a couple corners nice, handles the puck in traffic well, has good offensive instincts.

Unfortunately for him, there are a lot of guys like that in the world of hockey - and a lot of them end up giving up on the NHL after 5 yrs in the AHL and head to Europe.

As always with our prospects, I hope he blossoms and wins the Rocket, Ross and Hart trophies this year. We'll see.

If Potulny and his agent are too demanding in terms of contract, or insist on a one-way deal, Holmgren might have to let him walk.

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07-27-2007, 11:08 AM
  #83
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Derek Roy signs for 6 years - $24 million

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=214795&hubname=

This pretty well sets the minimum market for Carter and Richards next year - $4 million a season.

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07-27-2007, 11:23 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=214795&hubname=

This pretty well sets the minimum market for Carter and Richards next year - $4 million a season.
I think that the Hartnell & Penner deals set that bar. Roy and Horton make close to the same amounts, but at least have a 60+ pnt season.

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07-27-2007, 11:54 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=214795&hubname=

This pretty well sets the minimum market for Carter and Richards next year - $4 million a season.
Not unless they have a huge break out season this year. They have the potential, but so far they havent actually done anything to warrant that kind of a contract.

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07-27-2007, 03:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Corey Perry had 25 points in 2005-2006 (.446 PPG) which put him at 11th for the Ducks top point getters. He had 44 points in 2006-2007 (.536 PPG) which put him at 8th for the Ducks top point getters. 56% of his points came at even strength in 2005-2006, and 54.5% of his points came at even strength in 2006-2007.
Jeff Carter had 42 points in 2005-2006 (.519 PPG) which put him at 6th for the Flyers top point getters. Then, in 2006-2007, he scored 37 points in (.597 PPG), good for 4th for the Flyers top point getters. 64.3% of his points came at even strength in 2005-2006, and 73.0% of his points came at even strength in 2006-2007.

Perry doesn't have **** on Carter. He's totally outclassed in every statistical category. And if statistics determine paychecks, which they have a tendency to do, Carter could be looking at a higher offer-sheet than Corey "the fairy" Perry. But we can't actually definitively prove that until both players sign an offer-sheet during the same offseason.First of all, I don't want to call them prospects because they aren't. The two are NHL regulars at this point. Second, Perry's accomplishments ended at the junior level. At the NHL level, he's just a one-dimensional forward who's being spoon fed prime minutes by Carlyle, and one that had the good fortune of playing with two of the top three defensemen in the NHL, and a former Conn Smythe goaltender. At the NHL level, neither of them have accomplished dick. And I can say that because, if either of them retired in the offseason, no one would remember them in fifty years. They haven't broken any records. They haven't won any accolades. And they haven't done anything to ingrain themselves in history like playing in the Olympics or an All-Star game.Right...see above.Gee, it's tough to argue that. Do me a favor next time and learn how to use ****ing paragraphs.
Unfortunately you have given yourself away with this post, and that hurts your credibility in terms of being completely objective on the subject. Clearly you do not like Perry, and unfortunately most people can't separate their personal feelings from the facts, and obviously you are one of them. Oh, and very impressed to see you spent some time looking up a bunch of statistics. Way to go. Unfortunately you conveniently left a few out. And Perry isn't a center, so the faceoff stats are meaningless. If anything they hurt Carter in that he is supposed to be a number 2 center. 46% is fairly bad. You forgot to mention that fact that Carter played nearly 7 more minutes a night then Perry. I'd hope to God he could put up as many points when he's getting 50% more minutes. Also, the stats on their ranking on their respective teams is ridiculous. Anaheim was the best team in the league, and Philly was the worst, so you use that against him and say his point totals are inflated because he's playing with talent, then say he's 11th on the team in scoring, well, that is also because there was infinitely more talent on Anaheim than Philly. Can't have it both ways. And I'm curious, how much of Anaheim did you watch last year (the playoffs at least I would assume), because you might be singing a different tune. Perry shows "signs of brilliance" if you will a heck of a lot more than Carter, and in the playoffs he was one of the Ducks (who had tremendous talent) most feared players. Not to mention Perry can play an agitator role, as well as drop the gloves and handle himself. Carter is soft. Also, to say Perry's accomplishments ended at the junior level, and to actually attempt to use that in the argument is ridiculous. Perry was one of the impact players on a Stanley Cup Champion team, whereas Carter has a grand total of ZERO points in six career NHL playoff games. Sorry to say that didn't exactly help your point. See, I'm a fan of both teams, so I can remain objective. And unfortunately objectivity is something which is often hard to come by. You can't even do it in our discussion. At the end of each of your rants you feel the need to throw in a comment having nothing to do with the discussion, but merely meant to incite. Once again, not necessary.

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07-27-2007, 03:50 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Wow, total speculation is a now 'fact.'

It's damn near fact that every team in the league would take Carter over Perry at this point, straight up - including Anaheim.

Disprove that 'fact'.
Here's the difference. I've backed up my OPINION with plenty of reasons as to why I feel the way I do, and so has the other guy who agrees with you (despite the fact that he unfortunately is incorrect). See, I watched at least 70 Flyers games last year, and essentially every one the year before, and have also watched at least 100 Ducks games over the past two seasons, and likely closer to 125. I also am a fan of both teams so I can remain objective. I'm sorry to say that I doubt those who disagree with me have watched anywhere near the amount of both teams that I have. I hope they have so that we can continue to have an educated argument, but if not then I'm afraid that the other group is simply grasping at straws. So if you want to make assertions like that, which once again are opinions, by all means do so, but at least back them up with something.

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07-27-2007, 04:03 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
Here's the difference. I've backed up my OPINION with plenty of reasons as to why I feel the way I do, and so has the other guy who agrees with you (despite the fact that he unfortunately is incorrect). See, I watched at least 70 Flyers games last year, and essentially every one the year before, and have also watched at least 100 Ducks games over the past two seasons, and likely closer to 125. I also am a fan of both teams so I can remain objective. I'm sorry to say that I doubt those who disagree with me have watched anywhere near the amount of both teams that I have. I hope they have so that we can continue to have an educated argument, but if not then I'm afraid that the other group is simply grasping at straws. So if you want to make assertions like that, which once again are opinions, by all means do so, but at least back them up with something.
I don't really want to get into an argument over who is the better player but it does seem to me that, most fans at least, if not most GMs do hold Carter on a bit of a pedestal when it comes to his potential. I think it would be fairly easy for this team to trade Carter if they wanted to and they would get a solid amount of talent back in return. The kid's ceiling is just so very high and people tend to look past his inconsistency.

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07-27-2007, 04:19 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Dr Love View Post
It depends on how much, and where. Personally I'd take a nice raise in a better place to live. But a small raise over what my current employer is offering in a place I have no real intention of working? I'll pass.

This doomsday scenario **** has got to stop. The Flyers will pay their players if they're worth it.
we're never talking non-trivial raises in these scenarios... it's always hundreds of thousands of dollars minimum. in the cases under consideration, it's millions of dollars.

it's not really "doosday" it's just potentialities... you have to have plans for these things... Buffalo handled their situation as poorly as possible and had their team gutted and then a huge cap number added to one of their players before he deserved.

it's about managing the situation... it won't be the end of the world to lose one of these guys and get a ton of compensation back and use the money potentially more wisely.

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07-27-2007, 04:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
I have to agree with Dr. Love, the negativity here is ridiculous. We haven't even played this season yet and we're already panicing over who may or may not be garnered an offer sheet next summer? If this team comes together, like we all hope they will, this season, neither Carter or Richards will want to leave. They will understand that they are on the brink of something great, and because of their awesome play, they will have a big part in it.

The simple fact is that a player has to want to sign an offer sheet. Many here are ASSuming that they're both going to jump at the chance to, and I disagree. They understand the game of hockey and they also have to be smart enough to understand that all these moves we made this spring and summer had their development in mind--they are both fully expected to play a big part in our future. They're not going anywhere.
this isn't about jumping... it's about someone coming to them and putting a non-trivial offer in front of them. most, if not all, players will sign that deal if it's in front of them. you're gambling way too much in not doing so.

we've been 'on the brink of something great' for way too many years here to really bank on that in july when contracts are getting signed... same goes for players. this is something to be dealt with in advance... ideally Holmgren doesn't let it ever get to this point. what is disconcerting is that these types of offers WILL effect negotiations for RFAs. if no one will put offers down, then they have no leverage... if someone is willing to put offers down, that changes the calculations for everyone quickly.

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07-27-2007, 04:41 PM
  #91
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Fred Penner > Dustin Penner

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07-27-2007, 04:51 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
Unfortunately you have given yourself away with this post, and that hurts your credibility in terms of being completely objective on the subject. Clearly you do not like Perry, and unfortunately most people can't separate their personal feelings from the facts, and obviously you are one of them.
And you've thumbed your nose at everything Carter's accomplished, going so far as to hold his stats at the junior level against him, so I don't see how you're any different.
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Oh, and very impressed to see you spent some time looking up a bunch of statistics. Way to go. Unfortunately you conveniently left a few out.
The only statistics in the universe that I left out included shots blocked, and TOI.
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And Perry isn't a center, so the faceoff stats are meaningless. If anything they hurt Carter in that he is supposed to be a number 2 center. 46% is fairly bad.
Not when you're facing guys like Drury, and Gomez it isn't. But you would have known that if you took the time to look at the strength of competition Carter consistently faced.
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You forgot to mention that fact that Carter played nearly 7 more minutes a night then Perry. I'd hope to God he could put up as many points when he's getting 50% more minutes.
2:30 of which came on the PK. This is just going to go in circles, but if you take a look at the strength of opposition, and the quality of linemates, Perry was playing "soft" minutes compared to Carter.
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Also, the stats on their ranking on their respective teams is ridiculous. Anaheim was the best team in the league, and Philly was the worst, so you use that against him and say his point totals are inflated because he's playing with talent, then say he's 11th on the team in scoring, well, that is also because there was infinitely more talent on Anaheim than Philly. Can't have it both ways.
I'll give you that 2005-2006 was bunk because he didn't even play a full season in the NHL (spent a few games in the AHL), but 2006-2007 is just another chance to prove my point. With a full year, and sheltered minutes, Perry ranks 8th in offensive production behind Selanne, McDonald, S.Niedmermayer, Kunitz, Pronger, Getzlaf, and Penner. In fact, the only players he outscored in Anaheim this past season were their grinders, and defensive defensemen. He wasn't the catalyst of the line. He was the benefactor.
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And I'm curious, how much of Anaheim did you watch last year (the playoffs at least I would assume), because you might be singing a different tune.
Every game on HNIC, and every game during the playoffs. Thanks for asking.
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Perry shows "signs of brilliance" if you will a heck of a lot more than Carter, and in the playoffs he was one of the Ducks (who had tremendous talent) most feared players.
"Feard players"? Laughable. If it weren't for Perry telling Datsyuk how he should watch himself, he wouldn't have drawn half the attention the fans were giving him. Getzlaf and Penner were the ones having their way with the Sens' defense. Perry was just coming along for the ride.
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Not to mention Perry can play an agitator role, as well as drop the gloves and handle himself.
He's an agitator, but handle himself he cannot. When it's one on one, Perry gets his ass handed to him 9 times out of 10, and the other times involve him rabbit punching his opponent who is at the time restrained by the referee.
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Carter is soft.
Carter has more grit than you give him credit for, and it's something that caught me offguard the first time he floored someone with a hit. He doesn't do it frequently, but it's there; you'll see it now that he's put more weight on.
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Also, to say Perry's accomplishments ended at the junior level, and to actually attempt to use that in the argument is ridiculous. Perry was one of the impact players on a Stanley Cup Champion team, whereas Carter has a grand total of ZERO points in six career NHL playoff games. Sorry to say that didn't exactly help your point.
Playoff Scoring

Corey Perry 2005-2006: 11gp 0g 3a 3pts -4 (ROOKIE)
Jeff Carter 2005-2006: 6gp 0g 0a 0pts -4 (ROOKIE)

Corey Perry 2006-2007: 21gp 6g 9a 15pts +5
Jeff Carter 2006-2007: n/a

Needles to say, I'm not worried about Carter's playoff record.
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See, I'm a fan of both teams, so I can remain objective. And unfortunately objectivity is something which is often hard to come by. You can't even do it in our discussion. At the end of each of your rants you feel the need to throw in a comment having nothing to do with the discussion, but merely meant to incite. Once again, not necessary.
I'm not really sure how you've proven to be anything more than a troll from the Anaheim board. So with that, I leave you with this: PARAGRAPHS. DO IT.

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07-27-2007, 05:32 PM
  #93
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perry may get a better offer then carter but that's is due to the fact that like penner his value is overstated by playing surrounded by a much better team...both penner & perry have played soft minutes...i thought perry's numbers would have been much better then carter's considering this..i think most people would think the same way because of the hype perry gets playing on a dynamic team...i don't mean to to totally disregard perry's game because his a very good player but i don't think it's a given that he is head and shoulders above carter...

as for perry handling himself i have only seen him fight twice...once he got his arse beat by downey in the O and last season in the playoffs burns(MINN) beat him down...the onlt time i have seen carter fight was a against a bigger jay mckee and he definitely took the fight to mckee...

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07-27-2007, 05:32 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Carter has more grit than you give him credit for, and it's something that caught me offguard the first time he floored someone with a hit. He doesn't do it frequently, but it's there; you'll see it now that he's put more weight on.....I'm not really sure how you've proven to be anything more than a troll from the Anaheim board.
I didn't quote your entire response because at this point in time I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. And actually, I'm a much bigger Flyers fan than I am Ducks fan, so I just wanted to make sure and clear that up. I would love to see Carter have a very productive year, and yes, even one that was better than Perry's. This team was miserable to watch for much of last season, so seeing Carter, Richards, Coburn etc. solidify themselves as good to very good players in this league would be fantastic. Also, I do recall a hit Carter had behind the net if memory serves which was definitely that of the devastating variety, so once again I hope the extra weight he put on does in fact translate into more physical play. That would be a very welcome addition to his game.

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07-27-2007, 08:59 PM
  #95
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Um, why are we even talking about Perry anyway? If anything, the fact that both Carter and Perry are RFA eligible next year will drive BOTH players' value down.

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07-27-2007, 11:41 PM
  #96
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Yeah, but this team is supposed to be a Cup contender in the next 2-3 years. If Carter leaves, that definitely sets us back a ways, there's no other way around it.

I'll probably regret this in a couple years, but we really don't need picks right now. Our system is so stocked outside of goalie and we have Marty for the foreseeable future. We don't need picks, we need quality players and Carter can turn into one for us.
How good does everybody think he is? I honestly wouldn't mind if somebody offered him 4 million a year - I'll take the picks at this point. Sure we'd need another center but replacing Carter would not be that hard IMO.

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07-29-2007, 11:52 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
Here's the difference. I've backed up my OPINION with plenty of reasons as to why I feel the way I do, and so has the other guy who agrees with you (despite the fact that he unfortunately is incorrect).
Hilarious, your opinion is 'correct' but the guy that just handed you your arse on a silver platter's stats don't count?

Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z.

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07-30-2007, 12:12 AM
  #98
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How good does everybody think he is? I honestly wouldn't mind if somebody offered him 4 million a year - I'll take the picks at this point. Sure we'd need another center but replacing Carter would not be that hard IMO.
i think he has the ability to be very good... you're casually dismissing a young kid... what if he goes out and pots 30+ goals this season as a 22 y/o... you going to be so casual about getting rid of him? that's really at the heart of the issue... if Carter meets his potential.

patience with young players remains something that needs to be acquired.

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Old
07-30-2007, 09:41 AM
  #99
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
i think he has the ability to be very good... you're casually dismissing a young kid... what if he goes out and pots 30+ goals this season as a 22 y/o... you going to be so casual about getting rid of him? that's really at the heart of the issue... if Carter meets his potential.

patience with young players remains something that needs to be acquired.
Agreed. I'll say it once and I'll say it again. It's all about the rules of threes with regards to a lot of the players from the 2003 draft. Here's the way I look at it - Staal has a break out year in his third full season of professional hockey; Horton also has a break out year in his third full season (technically, he's played four, but when he had those problems with his shoulder, you could technically say he's missed nearly a season's worth of hockey); Zach Parise had a break out year in his third full season of professional hockey; Marc Andre Fleury had a break out year in his third full season of professional hockey; Thomas Vanek had a break out year in his third full season of professional hockey too. I'm thinking we're going to see big years from the following 2003 drafted players: Carter, Richards, Michalek (even though it's year four for him, once again, this was a guy that missed nearly a full year's worth of hockey because of a knee injury), Getzlaf, Perry, Bernier and Pouliot.

Call me superstitious, but it seems to be the three year rule in effect here. Plus, we're also moving away from the Hitchcock-esque defensive system that was in place and going with a more aggressive forecheck/skating system - no more triple chip as Brett Hull would say. I think we're going to see very big numbers from our young guns this year.

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Old
07-30-2007, 04:04 PM
  #100
MojoJojo
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Downie is not a centre. Never has been. He's a RW - mostly because he doesn't skate well enough to play centre in Jr., let alone the NHL.
Evidently the Philadelphia Flyers and Hockeys Future disagree with you.

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app/?service=...ticleid=335461

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/steve_downie

Also, I'm fairly certain he played C at the World Juniors in 2006, and when he played for the Petes. Kitchener still has him as a RW, as does THN, but clearly he has played center, and is considered a center prospect.

As far as the argument "what if he scores 30 gals?" Well, it makes it hard to part with him, but in a salary cap world, thems the breaks. I would rather part with him, take the compensation and promote from within rather than have to start tearing apart the team with trades. If Carter gets an outrageous offer sheet, 30 goals does not make him irreplacable.

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