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Kevin Lowe and the offer sheet(s)

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07-26-2007, 04:29 PM
  #1
pld459666
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Kevin Lowe and the offer sheet(s)

I wanted to post on the Ducks page about getting their thoughts on the matter, but I didn't want to incite a riot and get a 3 point warning for that, same thing about posting on the Oilers board so i figured I'd post here.

I always knew in my heart of hearts that there was a double standard with regards to how fans view teams from smaller and larger markets and these 2 offer sheets shed more light on that than I know what to do with.

In 1997, the Rangers were looking to add a player that they could build around while at the same time take advantage of a situation where they thought the owners of the Colorado Avalanche were having financial difficulties.

Fans all over the country and Canada called for the head of Neil Smith and cried about how the Rangers were ruining hockey with their "poaching tactics"

Here we are 10 years later and we have a GM that failed in his first attempt and has gone out and did it again (I believe he's going to get Penner) and some of those same fans have found a justification for the offer-sheets.

The bottom line is that Lowe is using the same "poaching tactics" that NS used on Sakic. They know that Anaheim may be having some financial pressures and that matching the Penner offer means someone else will have to be sacrificed either this year or next and are banking on that pressure to force Anaheim to accept the compensation package.

It's not Rangers related other than the way each team is/was looked at for doing the same exact thing although 10 years apart

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07-26-2007, 04:50 PM
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Yeah probably. Especially Canadian fans. But at the same time I don't blame lowe, he has every right to raid anyone he wants. It's in the rules. Besides, he has to since no one wants to sign with Edmonton. So I really don't blame him. The thing is, the Buffalo and Anaheim GM will probably screw them back in the future when so many of their young players become rfa.

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07-26-2007, 04:59 PM
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vipernsx
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I think the one big difference is that back then, everyone wasn't playing on the same field financialy. The Rangers were able to use the fiscal resources of a big market club to and unfair advantage. Today, in the new salary cap era everyone has nearly the same amount of money to spend so that perception is no longer there.

Does that make it right? Well it's legal by the leagues rule, but it's certainly not going to make friends with any GM. Personally, I wouldn't like to see the Rangers get involved with being on either end of one of these situations.

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07-26-2007, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I think the one big difference is that back then, everyone wasn't playing on the same field financialy. The Rangers were able to use the fiscal resources of a big market club to and unfair advantage. Today, in the new salary cap era everyone has nearly the same amount of money to spend so that perception is no longer there.

Does that make it right? Well it's legal by the leagues rule, but it's certainly not going to make friends with any GM. Personally, I wouldn't like to see the Rangers get involved with being on either end of one of these situations.
Well yes and no, some teams can afford to make a mistake and then banish a player to the minors and not have it hit their cap, but they still have to pay the salary. Some teams cant make those all the time, while others like the Rangers can.

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07-26-2007, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I think the one big difference is that back then, everyone wasn't playing on the same field financialy. The Rangers were able to use the fiscal resources of a big market club to and unfair advantage. Today, in the new salary cap era everyone has nearly the same amount of money to spend so that perception is no longer there.

Does that make it right? Well it's legal by the leagues rule, but it's certainly not going to make friends with any GM. Personally, I wouldn't like to see the Rangers get involved with being on either end of one of these situations.
I have a strong feeling that if the Rangers made that offer sheet to Vanek, there would have been much screaming about the big bad Rangers playing unfairly, salary cap or no.

There was plenty of screaming about the Gomez and Drury signings.

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07-26-2007, 06:22 PM
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If the move makes the Ducks weaker, I'm all for it.

I have this feeling that Neidermayer will come back and withthe addition of Schneider & Pronger still on the blue line.. I fully expect the Ducks to make the cup finals again (hopefully against us) and hopefully this move makes them weaker!


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07-26-2007, 06:36 PM
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I dont know,personally I dont necessarily like the idea of an offer sheet, but I understand that its a fact of 'hockey life'. That said I'm inclined to believe that the the GM position is basically a 'good ol'boys' club and they collectively are watching with interest in regards to what Lowe is doing. I cant imagine that to many GMs are happy with this rule number one, and number two the fact that Lowe is trying again. So while he (Lowe) is attempting to make moves that will strengthen his team in the immediate future (next season) I think he will hurt himself and his team by possibly "ticking" off some of the other GM's and in turn not making for great trading partners. I'm sure some people will say that personal disputes shouldn't or don't come into play when making deals for personnel, the whole "business shouldn't be personal theory, but I feel like it's just human nature and most definitely comes into play. Now I have no "inside" knowledge nor do I claim to have any knowledge with how the GM's police themselves, its just my opinion ........ (e5)

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07-26-2007, 06:56 PM
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i blame the greedy players, who are willing to take cold hard cash over opportunity to win as much as i blame the GM's. I refuse to ostracize Kevin Lowe and completely forgive Penner or Vanek. Its as much their fault as it is Lowes. Nobody forced these guys to take the boat loads of cash to join a franchise destined to be bottom feeders for at least the next 3 years. Dont kill the GM's indiscriminantly, make sure you spread the blame to everyone who deserves it.

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07-26-2007, 07:25 PM
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It's BS, but small market fans will always dislike big markets. We even saw it when we signed Gomez/Drury, despite the fact that every small market is operating with the same salary cap. I don't really mind it. I don't like small markets either. After a few years in the current system they'll realize everyone's equal now...

As for the Penner offer, 4.3 per year for 5 years. Anaheim should take the compensation. I think Lowe got too aggressive after missing out on Vanek and he ended up making a bad move. Not only do all the other GM's probably dislike him now, but he's not even improving his team if he gives up all the picks for Penner.

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07-26-2007, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
i blame the greedy players, who are willing to take cold hard cash over opportunity to win as much as i blame the GM's. I refuse to ostracize Kevin Lowe and completely forgive Penner or Vanek. Its as much their fault as it is Lowes. Nobody forced these guys to take the boat loads of cash to join a franchise destined to be bottom feeders for at least the next 3 years. Dont kill the GM's indiscriminantly, make sure you spread the blame to everyone who deserves it.
The laymen fans apparently all have this notion that when an offersheet is made a player is basically enslaved by it.

Can't blame the GM even halfway on this matter. Its the player that negotiated and then went ahead and signed the offer.

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07-26-2007, 07:33 PM
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I wanted to post on the Ducks page about getting their thoughts on the matter, but I didn't want to incite a riot and get a 3 point warning for that, same thing about posting on the Oilers board so i figured I'd post here.

I always knew in my heart of hearts that there was a double standard with regards to how fans view teams from smaller and larger markets and these 2 offer sheets shed more light on that than I know what to do with.

In 1997, the Rangers were looking to add a player that they could build around while at the same time take advantage of a situation where they thought the owners of the Colorado Avalanche were having financial difficulties.

Fans all over the country and Canada called for the head of Neil Smith and cried about how the Rangers were ruining hockey with their "poaching tactics"

Here we are 10 years later and we have a GM that failed in his first attempt and has gone out and did it again (I believe he's going to get Penner) and some of those same fans have found a justification for the offer-sheets.

The bottom line is that Lowe is using the same "poaching tactics" that NS used on Sakic. They know that Anaheim may be having some financial pressures and that matching the Penner offer means someone else will have to be sacrificed either this year or next and are banking on that pressure to force Anaheim to accept the compensation package.

It's not Rangers related other than the way each team is/was looked at for doing the same exact thing although 10 years apart
There is a difference, in that there is now revenue linkage. Teams can now behave with fiscal irresponsibility without affecting the finances of the entire league. Salaries cannot escalate faster than revenues in the new system.

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07-26-2007, 08:38 PM
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Good thing Bobby Clarke or another GM wasn't as offer-sheet happy last summer when Petr Prucha scored 30 goals and added 17 assists during the 2005-2006 season. We should be thankful now that the lil spark plug is locked in at $1,600,000 per season. I know Penner plays a completely different game but holy smokes.

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07-26-2007, 08:59 PM
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According to one NHL executive, the Oilers have effectively driven up the salaries for comparable players with their offer sheets to Thomas Vanek and Penner this summer.

“It’s totally irresponsible,” he said. “I wouldn’t be surprised if Mike Cammalleri gets $6 million in arbitration, because he had a better year than Penner and he’s not as good as Vanek. If you saw them off in the middle you get $5.65 million. Totally irresponsible
.”
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One agent said he’s convinced the Ducks will keep Penner in the organization.

“I can’t see them letting this guy go. You have to protect your assets,” the agent said. “If the Oilers were trying to keep the Ducks from matching, they should have gone higher on a one-year deal that would have made for a high qualifying offer (after the contract expires).”
Quote:
But an NHL executive disagrees, saying he thinks the Ducks will not match the Penner offer.

“Brian has Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry coming up next summer and I think he thinks they’re better players,” he said. “If he matches this offer, where does he have to go to get these guys signed? I can tell you one thing, (Burke) won’t be happy about this.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/en/news...p?idNews=25493

Burke is still on the fishing trip with Sather,Sinden and Harley Hotchiss(Flames chairman and former head of NHL BOG)

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07-26-2007, 09:01 PM
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If the Rangers gave out two offer sheets within 13 days,......................

Slowe does it and it's business as usual

**** them

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07-26-2007, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.thehockeynews.com/en/news...p?idNews=25493

Burke is still on the fishing trip with Sather,Sinden and Harley Hotchiss(Flames chairman and former head of NHL BOG)
Maybe Glen should get his ASS back here and talk to Sean Avery

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07-26-2007, 09:05 PM
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According to one NHL executive, the Oilers have effectively driven up the salaries for comparable players with their offer sheets to Thomas Vanek and Penner this summer.

“It’s totally irresponsible,” he said. “I wouldn’t be surprised if Mike Cammalleri gets $6 million in arbitration, because he had a better year than Penner and he’s not as good as Vanek. If you saw them off in the middle you get $5.65 million. Totally irresponsible.”
And that is exactly the point of doing it. There is a huge "salary pie" out there. Lowe paying these players more does not change how much salary CAN be spent, it just forces teams to pay other players more. RFA prices may go up, but UFA prices will come down. It will all even out in the end, because it has to.

Lowe is a smart GM, and he is working within the rules to make his team better in the long run. And by that, I mean, he is making it harder for other teams to spend huge money on UFA's when they have RFA's to sign, allowing the Oilers to step in and get those UFA's or RFA's left out in the cold.

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07-26-2007, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
If the Rangers gave out two offer sheets within 13 days,......................

Slowe does it and it's business as usual

**** them
You would have the fans of one team angry with you, and rival fans questioning the sanity of your GM, and most fans around the league would be saying "shrewd move"

Anaheim fans hate it. Calgary and Vancouver fans call it stupid. Everyone else doesn't care.

That's how it is for the Oilers, and how it would be for any other team.

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07-26-2007, 09:17 PM
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You would have the fans of one team angry with you, and rival fans questioning the sanity of your GM, and most fans around the league would be saying "shrewd move"

Anaheim fans hate it. Calgary and Vancouver fans call it stupid. Everyone else doesn't care.

That's how it is for the Oilers, and how it would be for any other team.
********, we all know if the Rangers pulled a move like that everybody's hands would go up in the air and complain that, "if we had indespensable income, blah, blah, blah!"

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07-26-2007, 09:30 PM
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You would have the fans of one team angry with you, and rival fans questioning the sanity of your GM, and most fans around the league would be saying "shrewd move"

Anaheim fans hate it. Calgary and Vancouver fans call it stupid. Everyone else doesn't care.

That's how it is for the Oilers, and how it would be for any other team.
Other fans cares about it.

I mean..An exemple.Vanek new contract actually drives up the contract of Mike Cammalleri.Same goes for Derek Roy..Because of the contract that Lowe gave up to Dustin Penner.And the same can be said of Zach Parise.

Imagine in 2006 what Prucha would have gotten because of his 30goals-16assits..4millions??

Anyway..Lowe is way desesperate because none Free Agents wants to go to Edmonton..So he has to overpay and offer sheets to the Restricted Free Agents, Its a risk that Lowe can take, since he has a good young core of prospects in: Schremp,Cogliano,Gagner,Plante,Nilsson ect.

But again..You'll not get some friends by that way during the deadline..Maybe Sather but who knows?

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07-26-2007, 09:31 PM
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If the move makes the Ducks weaker, I'm all for it.

I have this feeling that Neidermayer will come back and withthe addition of Schneider & Pronger still on the blue line.. I fully expect the Ducks to make the cup finals again (hopefully against us) and hopefully this move makes them weaker!


it won't make the ducks weaker. if the ducks don't match they will get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. the oilers suck and penner won't change that so thats potentially a lottery pick and then it frees up a spot for bobby ryan.

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07-26-2007, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I think the one big difference is that back then, everyone wasn't playing on the same field financialy. The Rangers were able to use the fiscal resources of a big market club to and unfair advantage. Today, in the new salary cap era everyone has nearly the same amount of money to spend so that perception is no longer there.

Does that make it right? Well it's legal by the leagues rule, but it's certainly not going to make friends with any GM. Personally, I wouldn't like to see the Rangers get involved with being on either end of one of these situations.
that is a complete misconception though. everyone is NOT on a level playing field. it might be closer to level but its still not level.

yes every team can spend $50 mil, but if the rangers make $100 mil in revenue and the canes make $50 mil in revenue then $50 mil to carolina is NOT in any way, shape or form the same thing as $50 mil to the rangers.

everyone says that cap ensure that player salaries are no more then 54-55% of revenue, but thats league-wide revenue not individual team revenue. it averages out to 55% of revenue, but it might be 35% of revenue for one team and 65% of revenue for another and the team playing 65% is gonna lose $$.

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07-26-2007, 10:23 PM
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Something about an offer sheet is so taboo. Yeah its within the rules... but doing it twice? I dont know.
Seems like we wasted a whole season for nothing. The so-called low-market teams that complained and complained going into the lockout and forced the players to take less and less in the negotiating are the same ones driving the price up for FA's in the open market and through offer sheets.

Doesnt make much sense from a fans point of view.

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07-27-2007, 01:00 AM
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Lowe's reasons for doing this? First our boy Nylander spits in his face when he thought they had an agreement in principle. Then, the horrendous drafting. Losing out on Vanek. Trying to screw Anaheim and Burke in the worst way. Trying to show his GM brethren that he has big cojones, (probably still ticked off that he lost his Stanley Cup finals team because Mrs. Pronger had a hissy fit).

Don't forget that for EDM to give up draft picks- big deal, they suck at drafting anyway. But really, Dustin Penner? Reminds me of that Vancouver prospect Bobby Clarke made an offer on- you have to ask: why? AT least this time you don't have to ask: Who? Ryan Kesler? Never heard of the guy.

Pity poor Lowe, nobody wants to play for them, and he has to demonstrate to his huge fan base that he is not asleep at the wheel- Dustin Penner- come on down!

Kevin Lowe handing out offer sheets indiscriminately- the surest road to Bobby Clarkeville! Enjoy the ride hockey fans!

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07-27-2007, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Majoritystorm View Post
Yeah probably. Especially Canadian fans. But at the same time I don't blame lowe, he has every right to raid anyone he wants. It's in the rules. Besides, he has to since no one wants to sign with Edmonton. So I really don't blame him. The thing is, the Buffalo and Anaheim GM will probably screw them back in the future when so many of their young players become rfa.
I dont blame Lowe for trying to sign away players. At the end of the day, the option to do so is there for a reason but seriously... Dustin Penner, a 2nd year pro 21.25m over 5 years? and Vanek (though talented) 7 yrs/50million???

Is Lowe trying to push up the price of all the players in the league?!? its irresponsible GM's like this that cause the problems. Neither are 4 million players yet but out of desperation Lowe has gone out and acted wrecklessly.

Saying that, i think he might well get Penner as Ducks will struggle to accomodate his salary unless Niedermayer retires...

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07-27-2007, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millax View Post
And that is exactly the point of doing it. There is a huge "salary pie" out there. Lowe paying these players more does not change how much salary CAN be spent, it just forces teams to pay other players more. RFA prices may go up, but UFA prices will come down. It will all even out in the end, because it has to.

Lowe is a smart GM, and he is working within the rules to make his team better in the long run. And by that, I mean, he is making it harder for other teams to spend huge money on UFA's when they have RFA's to sign, allowing the Oilers to step in and get those UFA's or RFA's left out in the cold.
your rationale on this only makes sense if the cap doesn't increase by 5 million every year.

2 years ago the cap was 39 million, it's now 50 million, that's more than a 10% annual increase.

The RFA contracts that he's giving out now will have no affect on UFA salaries as the demand for players will always be greater than the supply of those players. The UFA contracts WILL ALWAYS BE HIGH.

RFA contracts like these only do damage to teams that own the rights to decent players.

I like Penner, happen to think that he's going to be alot better than some folks here think he will, but he's been in the league 2 years. It could be that last years 29 goals were due to the fact that he played on a supremely talented team in the Ducks. Either way you slice it he hasn't earned 4.3 annually.

As has been stated, Cammalleri should get more since he had a better year and is also more talented, Stempniak should be kicking himself in the arse since he also had a better year and a guy like Avery who I think is worth no more than 2.25 million a year can easily justify a contract between 2.5 and 4.3 and that's INSANE.

These contracts do nothing but bloat the value of other players where in majority of cases none are worth it.

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