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Who would you bring back?

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Old
08-04-2007, 10:55 AM
  #26
DaveG
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Well if that's the case.

Mark Howe, fills our need for a #1 defenseman nicely.

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08-06-2007, 10:56 AM
  #27
MadArcand
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Sean Burke.

Better backup and mentor for Ward than Grahame.

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08-06-2007, 12:30 PM
  #28
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Aaron Ward

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08-06-2007, 03:19 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Sean Burke.

Better backup and mentor for Ward than Grahame.
Not at this point in their careers. Better mentor, yes, because he's experienced but he's not a better goalie than Grahame right now.

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08-06-2007, 03:50 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caner Soze View Post
Pronger and Shanny are ex-Canes? I don't think we're talking about guys who played for the Whale too, because most of us never got to see them play (at least not much) for them.
they are pertinent because they were traded by the same management that currently runs the team. dont act like the whalers didnt exist. those trades still shape this team. my vote is for pronger, as you couldnt pay me to watch shanny.

my actual favorite would be sean burke in his prime. best goalie for we ever had imo for those four or five years. liut was amazing, but he had a great team. from actual canes i would go with markov, or kapanen.

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08-06-2007, 04:08 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
they are pertinent because they were traded by the same management that currently runs the team. dont act like the whalers didnt exist. those trades still shape this team. my vote is for pronger, as you couldnt pay me to watch shanny.

my actual favorite would be sean burke in his prime. best goalie for we ever had imo for those four or five years. liut was amazing, but he had a great team. from actual canes i would go with markov, or kapanen.
Who are these Whalers you speak of? Plymouth?

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08-06-2007, 04:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by JustJoe2k5 View Post
Who are these Whalers you speak of? Plymouth?


always pickin on the whalers guy.

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08-06-2007, 04:43 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post


always pickin on the whalers guy.
It's only 'cause we love you!

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08-06-2007, 04:47 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Sean Burke.

Better backup and mentor for Ward than Grahame.
AS someone who saw both of them in Tampa, you are better off with Grahame then Burke. Not by much, as they both had a tendancy to increase the teams budget for red lights, but you are better off with Grahame then Burke for sure.

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08-06-2007, 04:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by caniacgirl12 View Post
It's only 'cause we love you!
yeah yeah. nice try.

im an easy target, i know.

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Old
08-07-2007, 01:22 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiac_Canes View Post
Not at this point in their careers. Better mentor, yes, because he's experienced but he's not a better goalie than Grahame right now.
I'm not so sure. Burke did fairly well in horrid LA last season for a while. If the backup was to play sub-20 games, I'd go with him. But Grahame is probably better due to being younger and faster.

Still, I prefer Burkie. As bleedgreen said, the best goalie we ever had (and whom we traded, for some unfathomable reason, for crap. I'll never forgive JR that one.).

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08-07-2007, 04:27 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I'm not so sure. Burke did fairly well in horrid LA last season for a while. If the backup was to play sub-20 games, I'd go with him. But Grahame is probably better due to being younger and faster.

Still, I prefer Burkie. As bleedgreen said, the best goalie we ever had (and whom we traded, for some unfathomable reason, for crap. I'll never forgive JR that one.).
canes fans have a hard time understanding the dislike for that one -as gelinas scored such a big goal against TO, but any whaler fan will tell you that was one of the most lopsided trades theyve ever seen. that was a pure spiteful trade. burkie and sandy had publicly voiced opinions saying they missed hartford and didnt understand the move anymore (greensboro was tough move for them im sure). jr moved em out asap, apparently unconcerned with getting fair value. i can see why he did it, wanting any possible dissenters sent away, but sandy was a 35 goal per season 26ish winger and burke was at least a top 10 goalie at the time. they shouldve brought a bigger return.

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08-07-2007, 05:26 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
canes fans have a hard time understanding the dislike for that one -as gelinas scored such a big goal against TO, but any whaler fan will tell you that was one of the most lopsided trades theyve ever seen. that was a pure spiteful trade. burkie and sandy had publicly voiced opinions saying they missed hartford and didnt understand the move anymore (greensboro was tough move for them im sure). jr moved em out asap, apparently unconcerned with getting fair value. i can see why he did it, wanting any possible dissenters sent away, but sandy was a 35 goal per season 26ish winger and burke was at least a top 10 goalie at the time. they shouldve brought a bigger return.
I can live with the Sandman for Gelinas part. I like both players, albeit for different reasons (and they're different types of player as well). I'd give an edge value-wise to Sanderson at the time, but it wasn't that awful. But Burkie for aging, immobile, awful Kirk McLean? That was just beyond horrible.

BTW, I don't get the love-fest most Canes fans have for JR. That man made so many horrid trades that it ain't even funny, and even those that sort of panned out were just random luck IMO (say, Cassels and Jiggy for Roberts and Kidd, or the horrid chain trade of Pronger -> Shanny -> Primeau&Coffey -> Brindy, which seems good only because Brindy miraculously got back on the track and we won a Cup... yet it's obvious we traded down in every single trade in that chain).

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08-07-2007, 07:53 AM
  #39
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yet we have been to 2 finals in 5yrs winning 1 cupp and are poised to have a good fast exciting team this year--taking in market and budget considerations not to shabby---plus i personally am not interested that much in ancient history but more recent history and where we go from here. Not all trades that appear to look good on paper work out usually due to chemistry issues--guys have to want to play for each other.

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08-07-2007, 01:15 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I can live with the Sandman for Gelinas part. I like both players, albeit for different reasons (and they're different types of player as well). I'd give an edge value-wise to Sanderson at the time, but it wasn't that awful. But Burkie for aging, immobile, awful Kirk McLean? That was just beyond horrible.

BTW, I don't get the love-fest most Canes fans have for JR. That man made so many horrid trades that it ain't even funny, and even those that sort of panned out were just random luck IMO (say, Cassels and Jiggy for Roberts and Kidd, or the horrid chain trade of Pronger -> Shanny -> Primeau&Coffey -> Brindy, which seems good only because Brindy miraculously got back on the track and we won a Cup... yet it's obvious we traded down in every single trade in that chain).
a lot of people have become fans during the last five years, so they wont take history into consideration, and some like snake and others whove been around the whole canes time dont care as long as the present is good, and i can respect that. overall, im with you tho, only an organization run like ours can let a guy keep his job so long with such a record of futility. its tougher to blow all those years off when you actually lived and died with every move made. even the good years have awful ones between them. all i want is some consistency.

trying to get people to look at all those trades now rationally is tough, all they see is brindy the last two years and say - of course we won out. we won the cup so its hard to argue, but youre right - we took a step down every move until brindy got healthy.

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08-07-2007, 07:15 PM
  #41
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Marek Malik & Darren Langdon: The Trade That Shouldn't Have Happened

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08-07-2007, 09:36 PM
  #42
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I am one who thinks JR has made some pretty idiotic trades, and I am also one to think, which GM hasnt? It happens. Like it or not, for every GM in the NHL that has ever been, there are fans that nit pick his moves, not like his trades, signings, etc. I have been there just as each and every NHL fan has. I have nit picked, I have complained, b**ched and moaned about trades or signings I do not like. We've all been there. Trades and signings come along that we don't like and trades and signings come a long that we like. You take the good with the bad, it's the name of the game, it comes with being a fan. It comes with the game of Hockey. For every bad trade JR has made for this team, somewhere along the line, I don't care if it was 20 years ago, I don't care if it was 5 years ago, he has made a good trade. Same goes with signings, for every good there are bad. It is a funny game sometimes of hit or miss. I can name off bad moves by former and present GM's in the NHL all day long and take up 20 pages of this thread, but it would be worthless and pointless because I can rest assure to you there is not one GM in Hockey that has not made bad moves, bad signings, etc followed by good moves, good signings, etc. For all bad trades/signings I can name off, I can name just as many good trades/signings, and that goes for any GM other than Mike Millbury. There are GM's fans like along with GM's fans dislike. There are moves that are favoured, and moves that leave people shaking their heads. However, at the end of the day, it happens to every GM whether you are Ken Holland or Jim Rutherford.


Would we have gotten Justin Williams for Markov had JR chosen not to have traded Tanabe, Knayzev for Danny Markov and a conditional 4th round pick back in June of 03?

Would this team have hoisted the Stanley Cup in June 2006 had JR not have made poor decisions in previous years leading us to finish poorly and draft our franchise centre Eric Staal in 2003?

How about if JR didn't make the moves he did to build the 2002 team that ran to the SCF? Would we have had that late pick and taken Cam Ward, or would we have had an earlier pick and taken the best player available?

If I could go back to October 9th 1996 and trade Shanahan & Glynn to Detroit for Coffey, Primeau & a 1st round pick would I do it? Yes, I would.

What if JR has not signed Arturs Irbe in September 1998? Would we have made it to the finals in 02? Same goes for Weekes, had we not acquired him in March 2002 and shipped out Dingman and Willis. Would we have went to the finals in 02?

What if JR couldn't have talked Ronnie Francis into signing with us in Raliegh back in 1998?

Josef Vasicek for Scott Walker is looking pretty damn good right now.

What if JR Didn't trade Three 1st round picks in 1994 to acquire Glen Wesley? Would our scouts have pointed us in the direction to draft Kyle McLaren, Sergei Samsonov and Jonathan Aitken who ended up as those 3 picks, who knows. Wesley has been an absolute rock on this defence line since the Hartford days back in 1994. Was it a lot to give up 3 1st round draft picks? Yes, it was. Did it pan out for us in the short and long run of things? IMO yes it did, but you can't sit there and say it didn't pan out for us when Wesley puts each and every one of Samsonov, McLaren and Aitken to shame. Wesley never put up the points here he did before we acquired him in '94, but he has been as solid as the definition states and put up solid points until his decline with age. In their prime years would I take McLaren over Wesley? Nope. How bout Samsonov, I don't think so. And the other? He played 44 games and collected 1 assist for an 8th overall draft pick. That trade favoured us for years and is still favouring us to this day. If that trade was made today, and we gave up three 1st round draft picks for a defenceman, would there be fans who complain? Yes.

Yes, some of these moves by JR are more recent than in the past, but think of it this way. JR put us through some mediocre to bad seasons, and now we're destined for what should be quite a few years of greatness and competetive hockey. Only time will tell but the ball is most certainly in our favour. And at the rate JR is headed with the core and this team that he single handedly put together and continues to build on for success of Lord Stanley, I won't complain. As the old saying goes, sometimes you have to learn to lose before you can learn to win. We've had our fair share of losing/mediocre seasons and with how the league is set up right now with even competetiveness throughout the league, this team built by JR is headed and doing damn fine.


In the grand picture of it all, sometimes you have to wait a few years to see how different things pan out, draft picks, prospects, players. And in other situations the deals can be made within a season or two whether they were fair or not.

We could trade a player now, and get a player and a draft pick back that could benefit us with a different player in 2-3 years that can do great things here. Justin Williams is an example. It's all how it plays out.


You can sit there and look at Pronger -> Shanny -> Primeau&Coffey -> Brindy all day long. Back when we traded Pronger for Shanny then Primeau & Coffey which led to be Brind'Amour, what looks bad one year may turn out good years later. One trade people may look back on with shame can turn out to be a good thing a few years later. Like I said, it is all in how it plays out, which leads to my very point of me blabbing on here, the good comes with the bad.


Do I dislike moves by JR, you bet your a** I do. Do I like certain moves by JR, you bet your a** I do. However, I will not hold a grudge or any sort against the man when there is not one other GM in this game that has not made poor decisions. Why? Because like I said, IMO, the good comes with the bad and it has done so with JR. And for all the years we did bad, or got low draft picks that turned out to be Staal, Ladd, good drafting in Ward, luck in Jack Johnson, solid scouting in Cole, a smart trade to acquire Williams, a what proved to be smart move to acquire Wesley back in '94, a signing of Stillman which benefited this team greatly in our Cup winning season, getting one of the best players of all time in Francis to play here in a as labeled non-traditional hockey market when he could have played elsewhere.

It is all in the name of the game folks. The good simply comes with the bad. It is all in how you decide to deal with it. Will you hold grudges based on certain things throughout the years? You can, but when certain things from previous years, even in the Hartford days, amount as building blocks to a Stanley Cup years later, some things can be disregarded with some people, some things can't. So be it. There are teams that go 5-10-15-20 even 40 years to finally win a Stanley Cup, or go without, their are players that go their entire career without a sniff of Lord Stanley. What JR has done in the past and what JR is doing right now, so be it, the cards fall where they fall and what comes of it comes of it.


Last edited by Guerzy: 08-07-2007 at 11:06 PM.
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Old
08-07-2007, 09:57 PM
  #43
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BTW, I don't get the love-fest most Canes fans have for JR. That man made so many horrid trades that it ain't even funny, and even those that sort of panned out were just random luck IMO (say, Cassels and Jiggy for Roberts and Kidd, or the horrid chain trade of Pronger -> Shanny -> Primeau&Coffey -> Brindy, which seems good only because Brindy miraculously got back on the track and we won a Cup... yet it's obvious we traded down in every single trade in that chain).
I wonder what it would take for the JR haters, to ever admit he did a good job? Obviously winning the Cup didn't work. How about 2, would that be worth anything?

So let's get this straight, the good trades JR made were because of blind luck, and the bad ones were made were because he's an idiot. Brindy got back on track because of a miracle, not because of his hard work, dedication to fitness, determination and will to win. Him playing well is a fluke too? I'm amazed some of you people are still "fans" of the team since you seem to hate everything about the franchise, past and present.

If Rutherford and Karmanos are such a hacks, why do players want to play here? Why hasn't any player gone to arbitration in several years? Why are our RFA's always locked up well before the time comes when they can be poached by offer sheets? Why is Ron Francis living here and not in Hartford? Why did Ray Whitney, Scott Walker, Justin Williams, Rod Brind'Amour, and others re-sign here before they even tested the marketplace to see their value after July 1st this year and last?

Could it be that even though Rutherford has made a few bad trades over the years, he does do many other things right and that's hard to see rationally because of the previous hatred? I don't necessarily agree with how he is currently handling the Hedican situation, but that is typical Rutherford loyalty, and that is something the other players see and respect. It's much more important to me as a Hurricanes fan that the players respect and want to play for Jim Rutherford, than what a few disgruntled Whalers fans think about him and what he did 10 years ago.

Just my humble opinion.

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Old
08-08-2007, 12:58 AM
  #44
MadArcand
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@Guerzy: oh, I agree. He certainly had the good coming with the bad, but all of it combined doesn't make him one of the best GMs ever like some people tend to rave. Decent enough, perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanesCountry View Post
I wonder what it would take for the JR haters, to ever admit he did a good job? Obviously winning the Cup didn't work. How about 2, would that be worth anything?
I don't hate JR. I just don't love him the way it seems customary among some Canes fans. His trading skills are IMO suspicious at best, but he's solid when it comes to signings and drafts. All around, pretty average.

And Cups aren't won by GMs alone. Yes, he assembled a good team and hired a good coach, but it was them that came trough when it mattered.

Quote:
So let's get this straight, the good trades JR made were because of blind luck, and the bad ones were made were because he's an idiot. Brindy got back on track because of a miracle, not because of his hard work, dedication to fitness, determination and will to win. Him playing well is a fluke too? I'm amazed some of you people are still "fans" of the team since you seem to hate everything about the franchise, past and present.
Who in their right mind would expect Brindy to have such gigantic resurgence near the end of his career? He's playing his best hockey ever.

And no, not all of JR's trade wins were "blind luck". However, he repeatedly exhibited willingness to go to war with his players over minor nonsense and trade them off for bag of pucks afterwards.

As for hating the franchise, that's laughable. I love the franchise. I stood by it ever since I learned some NHL even exists, through all the horrid times. I didn't give a rat's ass that all the Devils/Wings/Avs fans kept laughing at the only Whaler/Canes fan in the radius of 100 miles. If you're a new fan, you can't even imagine how satisfactory the Cup was for someone who suffered through over a decade of mediocrity/suckage. So please don't tell me that I 'hate' the franchise.

Quote:
If Rutherford and Karmanos are such a hacks, why do players want to play here? Why hasn't any player gone to arbitration in several years? Why are our RFA's always locked up well before the time comes when they can be poached by offer sheets? Why is Ron Francis living here and not in Hartford? Why did Ray Whitney, Scott Walker, Justin Williams, Rod Brind'Amour, and others re-sign here before they even tested the marketplace to see their value after July 1st this year and last?
Organization, team, location, teammates, coaching staff, trainers != GM only.

And as for Francis choosing Raleigh over Hartford, who the hell wouldn't? Hartford, as a place, seems very much unappealing to me if I ignore the Whalers connection.


Last edited by MadArcand: 08-08-2007 at 01:00 AM. Reason: mistag
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08-08-2007, 03:34 AM
  #45
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im drunk so im not going to say all that i wish to say at this monent other than a few small points. 1) i agree with madarcand's post to a t, any post i make at this point would be redundant to his - so ill leave it mostly at "what he said".

2)before ronnie came to raliegh, he was a forever a CT person. i really believe he wouldve lived in CT if he hadnt fallen for raliegh. hartford may be a dump but the surrounding areas are beautiful and great areas for families. CT public schools are typically ranked tops in the US...so i guess im saying to those who diss living in hartford you dont know squat. there is a lot more to CT than hartford. many former whalers settled in the area much like many former canes choose to settle there, saying that raliegh is better because these guys choose to stay there as compared to CT is flat out wrong.

3)to canes country - give it a rest. i dont hate rutherford as a disgruntled whaler fan, as mad has pointed out there were plenty of reasons to dislike jr's career - no a cup doesnt erase all deeds to some. i give him all the credit in the world for the two great seasons, but it doesnt make me blind to all the bad ones. there have been far more mediocre to bad ones than good ones. you can choose to forget that, its your choice but dont snap at others for not feeling the same way. i think jr is at best a competent GM, thats my prerogative. If he didnt have a situation where he essentially couldnt be fired he wouldnt have made it past one or two seasons in NC, in fact he wouldve been lucky to make it out of hartford at all. all the mistakes he was allowed to make have made him into whatever he is now. i think its great that the turn for the better has apparently come, but i dont give him credit as a genius for it - he learned from his mistakes and others wouldnt have been given that chance.


Last edited by bleedgreen: 08-08-2007 at 03:46 AM.
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08-08-2007, 06:24 AM
  #46
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@Guerzy: oh, I agree. He certainly had the good coming with the bad, but all of it combined doesn't make him one of the best GMs ever like some people tend to rave. Decent enough, perhaps
I can agree to that.


Quote:
3)to canes country - give it a rest. i dont hate rutherford as a disgruntled whaler fan, as mad has pointed out there were plenty of reasons to dislike jr's career - no a cup doesnt erase all deeds to some. i give him all the credit in the world for the two great seasons, but it doesnt make me blind to all the bad ones. there have been far more mediocre to bad ones than good ones. you can choose to forget that, its your choice but dont snap at others for not feeling the same way. i think jr is at best a competent GM, thats my prerogative. If he didnt have a situation where he essentially couldnt be fired he wouldnt have made it past one or two seasons in NC, in fact he wouldve been lucky to make it out of hartford at all. all the mistakes he was allowed to make have made him into whatever he is now. i think its great that the turn for the better has apparently come, but i dont give him credit as a genius for it - he learned from his mistakes and others wouldnt have been given that chance.
I agree to that aswell.

I cannot say to much, as I have to go to work and I have blabbed on way to much already as is.

All I can say on the JR front is he's not great, he's not horrible, just a little in the middle is my opinion. Average if you will.


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08-08-2007, 08:09 AM
  #47
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Quote:
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3)to canes country - give it a rest. i dont hate rutherford as a disgruntled whaler fan, as mad has pointed out there were plenty of reasons to dislike jr's career - no a cup doesnt erase all deeds to some. i give him all the credit in the world for the two great seasons, but it doesnt make me blind to all the bad ones. there have been far more mediocre to bad ones than good ones. you can choose to forget that, its your choice but dont snap at others for not feeling the same way. i think jr is at best a competent GM, thats my prerogative. If he didnt have a situation where he essentially couldnt be fired he wouldnt have made it past one or two seasons in NC, in fact he wouldve been lucky to make it out of hartford at all. all the mistakes he was allowed to make have made him into whatever he is now. i think its great that the turn for the better has apparently come, but i dont give him credit as a genius for it - he learned from his mistakes and others wouldnt have been given that chance.


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08-08-2007, 08:13 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I don't hate JR. I just don't love him the way it seems customary among some Canes fans. His trading skills are IMO suspicious at best, but he's solid when it comes to signings and drafts. All around, pretty average.
Bingo. I respect Rutherford as a person, but I don't think he's the greatest GM there is. To me, his trades have worked out by the grace of God and we were fortunate to land Staal. Staal getting his explosiveness back == Stanley Cup, not Cullen. He has done better the past few years, but he brought up some of his previous bad decisions back by re-acquiring Cullen. On the surface, this isn't a bad move now that I've had more time to reflect on it but it's still not a move that should have been done. I'll say this: I respect the way everyone feel about the players and staff. My opinion isn't as high on some things but I'm an opionated person who probably shouldn't be so opinionated. I don't hate anyone and I respect everyone but we all are going to say stuff at times we won't agree on. That's all.

Btw, I'm in Dallas this week and the HR guy here is a huge Stars fan, and the first guy I've met who lives here who isn't a big Cowboys freak. The American Idol auditions here were freakish the other day too, so I guess we'll see the worst (best) audition episodes ever come January.

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08-08-2007, 08:21 AM
  #49
DaveG
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Originally Posted by Storminator16 View Post
Bingo. I respect Rutherford as a person, but I don't think he's the greatest GM there is. To me, his trades have worked out by the grace of God and we were fortunate to land Staal. Staal getting his explosiveness back == Stanley Cup, not Cullen. He has done better the past few years, but he brought up some of his previous bad decisions back by re-acquiring Cullen. On the surface, this isn't a bad move now that I've had more time to reflect on it but it's still not a move that should have been done. I'll say this: I respect the way everyone feel about the players and staff. My opinion isn't as high on some things but I'm an opionated person who probably shouldn't be so opinionated. I don't hate anyone and I respect everyone but we all are going to say stuff at times we won't agree on. That's all.

Btw, I'm in Dallas this week and the HR guy here is a huge Stars fan, and the first guy I've met who lives here who isn't a big Cowboys freak. The American Idol auditions here were freakish the other day too, so I guess we'll see the worst (best) audition episodes ever come January.
I've debated going to one of those as a mime just for the joke factor.

And on JR, you are (as well as bleed and mad) dead right, I don't think any of us HATE the guy or are even close to it. He's an overall good guy but he's not the end all be all of GMs. There's aspects that he does a heck of a lot better then other GMs (finding goalies, developing organizational loyalty, fan relations, capology) but on others he's rather average at best (don't even get me started on prospect development).


Last edited by DaveG: 08-08-2007 at 08:29 AM.
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08-08-2007, 08:44 AM
  #50
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Organization, team, location, teammates, coaching staff, trainers != GM only.
Who makes the hiring decisions for the above? The man who went from being an idiot, to now at least being called competent. I can live with that. I never said JR was a genius and I don't recall ever reading anywhere that he was the best GM alive, so I don't know where that is coming from. All I'm saying as that he has made some good decisions and if you are going to constantly rake him over the coals all the time for his past mistakes, you should at least give him some credit or not be blind for what he has done right, and at least not call it luck.

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to canes country - give it a rest. i dont hate rutherford as a disgruntled whaler fan, as mad has pointed out there were plenty of reasons to dislike jr's career


Okay, I'll give it a rest. I've made what? 3 or 4 total posts here? *L* Sorry. Let the rational and gleeful Rutherford bashing continue and I won't say another word. I'm sure it will start back up again in a day or two and everyone will be back to being happy.

peace...

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