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Proposal Phi and Was

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Old
01-03-2004, 04:43 PM
  #26
Winston Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
Sorry friend....... thats just outlandish.
Not really. Gonchar will be demanding a huge raise and will be around 30 years old, Pitkanen is arguably the best young defenseman in the league, he's already looking like a young Lidstrom.

I guarantee you Washington would throw in a lot extra with Gonchar to get Pitkanen.

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Old
01-03-2004, 05:18 PM
  #27
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laughable

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Not really. Gonchar will be demanding a huge raise and will be around 30 years old, Pitkanen is arguably the best young defenseman in the league, he's already looking like a young Lidstrom.

I guarantee you Washington would throw in a lot extra with Gonchar to get Pitkanen.
Homer alert.

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Old
01-03-2004, 05:25 PM
  #28
Winston Wolf
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So, where am I being a homer? Is Pitkanen not one of the best young defensemen in the league?
Oh, wait I know, Gonchar is the best defenseman in the league and is GREAT defensively, no matter what anyone else tells you.

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01-03-2004, 05:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
Sorry friend....... thats just outlandish.
Not really.
Take into account age, contract status and salary I bet you that Pitkanen would fetch more in a trade than Gonchar.
Sure, Id rather have Gonchar for this season but would you rather have Pitkanen for the next 10-15 years or Gonchar for a season and 4 months (maybe just 4 months if there is a lockout)?

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Old
01-03-2004, 05:36 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
So, where am I being a homer? Is Pitkanen not one of the best young defensemen in the league?
Oh, wait I know, Gonchar is the best defenseman in the league and is GREAT defensively, no matter what anyone else tells you.
You know, Pitkanen is good, but I honestly dont know where all these God-like comparisons are coming from. Philly is a good team with a loaded line-up, which is why Im surprised when hockey-knowledgeable people who dont rank Pitkanen a sureshot 10 out of 10 now-and-future superstar Dman get jumped by Philly fans like its a crime.

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01-03-2004, 05:37 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
So, where am I being a homer? Is Pitkanen not one of the best young defensemen in the league?
Oh, wait I know, Gonchar is the best defenseman in the league and is GREAT defensively, no matter what anyone else tells you.

While I understand the sentiment, I also think there's a difference between a player who has proven themselves offensively in the league and a prospect who is tabbed to be a #1 in the league. I'm a Caps' fan, and I can only grade him 'adequate' when it comes to defense, but I think you undervalue Gonchar.

It's nice to have a fantastic prospect, but, again, Gonchar has proven some things. He's the best offensive defenseman in the league, and, while his defense does leave something to desire, it's not the seive-like farce it's thought to be in some circles. I think Pitkanen is probably on his way, but nothing's for sure.


Last edited by Marshall: 01-03-2004 at 05:43 PM.
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Old
01-03-2004, 05:40 PM
  #32
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I really don't think that Gonchar and Kolzig are the problems in this trade. I agree that Philly has no need for a Bondra but imagine the damage Gonchar would do on their already awesome PP and the instant credibility Kolzig would add in goal. If I have a shot at getting the number 1 Dman in the NHL (he's not old), and picking up a solid goalie in the process then giving up Pitkanen becomes easier to swallow especially when sipping from the cup.

However, I would only do the trade if Gonchar would be locked in for the next 3 years (atleast) from the Flyers standpoint.

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Old
01-03-2004, 05:42 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
You know, Pitkanen is good, but I honestly dont know where all these God-like comparisons are coming from. Philly is a good team with a loaded line-up, which is why Im surprised when hockey-knowledgeable people who dont rank Pitkanen a sureshot 10 out of 10 now-and-future superstar Dman get jumped by Philly fans like its a crime.
How did you get god-like comparisons out of somebody saying that Pitkanen had more trade value than Gonchar?

There's no question that Gonchar is by far the better player right now, but IMO it would take more to get Pitkanen via trade.

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Old
01-03-2004, 06:25 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feenom
I really don't think that Gonchar and Kolzig are the problems in this trade. I agree that Philly has no need for a Bondra but imagine the damage Gonchar would do on their already awesome PP and the instant credibility Kolzig would add in goal. If I have a shot at getting the number 1 Dman in the NHL (he's not old), and picking up a solid goalie in the process then giving up Pitkanen becomes easier to swallow especially when sipping from the cup.

However, I would only do the trade if Gonchar would be locked in for the next 3 years (atleast) from the Flyers standpoint.
Something to consider. What are you looking for on the Flyer power play? While Gonchar is a great passer and has a great shot from the point. He is also amazingly quick to jump in the backdoor. On the other hand Bondra has what is arguably the most dangerous one timer from the point in the NHL.

For anyone that has seen the Capitals power play much and has seen the last two games without him, its night and day. Bondra has 8 ppg's this season all on one time slap shots. There are only a few NHL teams with one point shooter like either Gonchar or Bondra. The Capitals have both and that is a dominant advantage. A PK must try and press both points which means a 3 on 2 down low. With Jagr, Lang and Zubrus down low a team sort of has to pick its poison.

I doubt seriously that the Capitals are remotely interested in trading either of those players. but if that both bondra and gonchar would be offered in a trade, it would give the flyers the most dominant pp in the league for the playoffs.

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Old
01-03-2004, 06:48 PM
  #35
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We already have the best PP in the league, so if anything it would probably just hurt chemistry.

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01-03-2004, 06:56 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
We already have the best PP in the league, so if anything it would probably just hurt chemistry.
Getting a player like Gonchar would only improve the team. It just won't happen if the price is Pitkanen.

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Old
01-03-2004, 08:22 PM
  #37
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Big difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
So, where am I being a homer? Is Pitkanen not one of the best young defensemen in the league?
Oh, wait I know, Gonchar is the best defenseman in the league and is GREAT defensively, no matter what anyone else tells you.
In ONE of the best young, and THE BEST OFFENSIVE, and one of the BEST OVERALL.

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Old
01-03-2004, 10:08 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
Getting a player like Gonchar would only improve the team. It just won't happen if the price is Pitkanen.
agreed.
I would love to have Gonchar bang'n em home from the point on the PP but IMO, Clarke will not trade Gagne or Pitkanen unless someone blows him away with a crazy offer and this isn't a insanely great deal for the Flyers.

also, as said above, there is just to much salary that the Flyers would be taking on.

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Old
01-03-2004, 10:12 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
In ONE of the best young, and THE BEST OFFENSIVE, and one of the BEST OVERALL.
hey, us Flyers fans are not the only ones saying how great this kid plays and how great he can be.

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Old
01-03-2004, 10:27 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBJets
If PHI is really serious about the cup this year it would help there chance allot it would be a huge salary dump for Was (price of winning for Phi) good young players for Was to start rebuilding. It works for both teams does it not????????

PHI: Gagne & Pitkanen & Esche

WAS: Bondra & Gonchar & Kolzig

Pitkanen wont be traded. I doubt gagne would be traded, but for a guy like Gonchar, he might be.

If Gonchar is moved though, a defenseman would have to go the other way, my guess would be someone like Johnsson.

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Old
01-04-2004, 05:22 AM
  #41
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This is a silly rumor, wraught with holes. It's not even a rumor, just the wild, crazy speculation of a disturbed mind (sorry, Jets), and qualifying it by writing "if Philadelphia is really serious about the Cup they'll do it" doesn't do it, unfortunately. Discussing the "fairness" and long- and short-term "value" is all well and fine, but doesn't really grasp too many things to mention here.

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Old
01-04-2004, 04:14 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBJets
If PHI is really serious about the cup this year it would help there chance allot it would be a huge salary dump for Was (price of winning for Phi) good young players for Was to start rebuilding. It works for both teams does it not????????

PHI: Gagne & Pitkanen & Esche

WAS: Bondra & Gonchar & Kolzig
If Philly is serious about winning, they need to get a goalie and that's it. Turning half the roster over, time and time again totally kills chemistry in the long run. Not only that, but the Flyers finally have solved their PP woes, making it hard to move Gagne and Pitkanen (esp.) And let's be honest. Gonchar is really, really good, so I don't think McPhee is going to move him for Pitkanen. FHL sim Gms think that way, not actual NHL General Managers. (unless you are a small market team, and have no choice)

If the Flyers want to win, they will need to move Hackett. He is getting too much money while not really producing. The guy also thought the starting job was his, thus, making him an unhappy camper. In any deal where the Flyers get a goalie, Hackett has to be moved. Unfortunately that might prove difficult.

For Kozlig...

To Phi: Olaf Kolzig, 3rd round in 2004
To Was: Jeff Hackett, Justin Williams, Mike Richards

I might get ripped, but in fairness. Hackett is a salary dump, making the package less attractive with him in it. The Caps want to dump salary, but they aren't in the dire straights that Pittsburgh is in, and don't have the goaltending controversy that Detroit does. Mcphee will expect to get fair value for him, since the Avs could come calling later on if Aebischer struggles or gets injured before the deadline and he will only be shedding about $3 million in salary in the deal.


Last edited by The Flash: 01-04-2004 at 04:18 PM.
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Old
01-04-2004, 04:56 PM
  #43
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Hackett has a NTC.

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Old
01-04-2004, 04:56 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash
To Phi: Olaf Kolzig, 3rd round in 2004
To Was: Jeff Hackett, Justin Williams, Mike Richards
Philly gets ripped in that trade, honestly night in and night out Williams is usually the Flyer's best player, I would rather trade Gagne than Williams.

It doesn't matter anyways, considering Hackett has a no trade clause.

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Old
01-04-2004, 05:08 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Philly gets ripped in that trade, honestly night in and night out Williams is usually the Flyer's best player, I would rather trade Gagne than Williams.

It doesn't matter anyways, considering Hackett has a no trade clause.
Two points for you:

No trade clauses mean nothing. Sure they complicate things, but they can be bought out.

To win the Cup you need your goalie to be the best player, not a 2nd line energy guy who sees very little PP time. Those guys are important, but goaltending is the key.

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Old
01-04-2004, 05:17 PM
  #46
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Added to Hackett's NTC, there's also the matter of that being WAY too much to give up for Kolzig. He's been awful this year and I don't see the Flyers taking a chance on him when Esche has played well this year.

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Old
01-04-2004, 07:28 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
Added to Hackett's NTC, there's also the matter of that being WAY too much to give up for Kolzig. He's been awful this year and I don't see the Flyers taking a chance on him when Esche has played well this year.
And that's the reason why we haven't celebrated a Stanley Cup victory!!

Bob Clarke keeps settling for 2nd rate goaltenders to start for this team.

Ron Hextall (his 2nd stint), Garth Snow, Sean Burke, JVD, Roman Cechmanek, Jeff Hackett and Robert Esche.

No wonder why all the Gms from the East want Booby to keep his job. The guy always tries to fix the wrong parts of the engine. Clarke has the cash... Now go and get a goalie. Kolzig is just stuck on a bad team now, he would be a great fit on a good team. And if not Ollie, bring in Khabby.


Last edited by The Flash: 01-04-2004 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
01-04-2004, 07:57 PM
  #48
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Khabby would be a welcomed addition but there's still the matter of TB making him available.

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Old
01-04-2004, 08:15 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash
Bob Clarke keeps settling for 2nd rate goaltenders to start for this team.
Ask yourself two questions, Flash:

1) Where is this magic great goaltender?
2) How much will it cost to get him?

Realize that you get a little hung up on Question No. 1, which makes Question No. 2 quite irrelevent.

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01-04-2004, 11:17 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley
Ask yourself two questions, Flash:

1) Where is this magic great goaltender?
2) How much will it cost to get him?

Realize that you get a little hung up on Question No. 1, which makes Question No. 2 quite irrelevent.
Well, let's see. Brodeur is playing on NJ, which makes him impossible to get. Theodore is incredible too, but Gainey won't trade him. The days of suckering the Montreal Gm is a thing of the past. But for your simple answer. Cujo is a very good goalie... Cost: $8.5 million a year for 2 seasons. The guy probably still has a Flyers jersey in his basement.

However, your 1st question is flawed. The Flyers don't need a "Great" goalie per se, but they do need a good one. AND they need an upgrade from what they have now.

So, let me see who would be better than HackESCHE

Brodeur - Not available
Belfour - Not available
Lalime - Available, maybe? But not for what we can offer them back
Nabokov - Could be available for the right price
Luongo - Not available
Khabibulin - Could be available for the right price
Giguerre - Not available
Cujo - Available
Kolzig - Available
Burke - Available
Theodore - Not available
Turco - Not available
Osgood - Not available

That leaves the Flyers with a few choices: Nabokov, Khabby, Cujo, Kolzig and Burke. Just judging by their salaries, a few of them would come pretty cheap, namely Cujo and maybe Burke (if Gretz comes has come to his senses and stop asking for a Jackman type return)

The problem is that everyone looks at the Flyers goaltending and GAA comparatively to the rest of the league. In the playoffs it all comes down to Goaltending duels. Once Clarke realizes that Hackesche has no chance against most of these guys, all things being equal, he just might make a deal.

PS. If you look at the choices Clarke has made in the past, it all comes to him taking the cheaper route on a goaltender. The 'tenders were all out there. Clarke just chose to go with his instinct instead of conventional wisdom (ie. JVD over Richter and Cujo)

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