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Old
07-31-2007, 08:57 PM
  #1
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Concern Over Big Fa Signings

There has been a Poll going on of the top forwards in the league over on the NHL polls board. The results to this point are...

1. Sidney Crosby (88.28%)
2. Joe Thornton (41.89%)
3. Vincent Lecavalier (47.73%)
4. Alexander Ovechkin (44.70%)
5. Jaromir Jagr (54.84%)
6. Dany Heatley (36.13%)
7. Joe Sakic (54.17%)
8. Jarome Iginla (45.14%)
9. Daniel Alfredsson (27.54)
T-10. Martin St. Louis (26.95%)
T-10. Marian Hossa (26.95%)
12. Ilya Kovalchuk (36.36%)
13. Henrik Zetterberg (29.22%)
14. Jason Spezza (38.28%)
15. Pavel Datsyuk (28.13%)
16. Olli Jokinen (30.71%)
17. Marian Gaborik (27.86%)
18. Martin Havlat (24.00%)
T-19. Eric Staal (17.60%)
T-19. Evgeni Malkin (17.60%)
21. Teemu Selanne (37.11%)
22. Brad Richards (22.68%)
23. Patrik Elias (26.32%)
24. Peter Forsberg (23.68%)
25. Simon Gagne (28.57%)
26. Rod Brind'Amour (23.21%)
27. Mats Sundin (31.63%)
28. Daniel Briere (24.49%)
29. Patrick Marleau (32.42%)
30. Marc Savard (30.77%)
31. Thomas Vanek (32.39%)
32. Rick Nash (25.57%)
33. Daniel Sedin (29.03%)
34. Scott Gomez (24.19%)
35. Henrik Sedin (31.03%)
T-36. Chris Drury (20.69)
T-36. Patrice Bergeron (20.69)

I think this list is a pretty fair list, definitely not terrible.

Isnt anyone a little fearful that we just signed arguably the 34th and 36th best forwards to 2 of the largest contracts in the league (i havent seen a list but probably like 2 of the top 10 of all players and not just forwards). In 3-5 years if this list were re-done it definitely wouldnt surprise me if they werent top 50 forwards yet they will be in the top 20 of ALL contracts possibly. Someone please lessen my fears because while I am excited as hell for the upcoming season I am extremely worried about the longterm future.

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Old
07-31-2007, 09:03 PM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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Not really.
Didnt have time to check but how many teams can account for having 3 players in the top 36 of that list who've all won Stanley cups?

I see the Lightning and the Rangers...

Paper is paper, ice is ice. You gotta play the games. I wouldnt get too caught up in this stuff.

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07-31-2007, 09:12 PM
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It depends. Is the poll about the best all around forward? Best scoring forwards? Is it trying to messure intagibles? Like scoring OT goals in Stanley Cup playoff games?

Maybe talent-wise these guys are 34 and 36 but they bring more to the table than just talent. Nylander wasn't even on the list and he put up more points than most of those guys on the list last season but how much of what he did was based on his chemistry with Jagr. It's all about chemistry and your role on the team and intangibles.

If you're worried about how much we spent, just remember that it's not like going to the store and buying a good gallon of milk when there are 300 sitting in front of you. This is like trying to buy a pint of heavy cream, but there are only 7 available, but none are the same and because of the low amount the demand is driving the price into the millions. But you really really need it.

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Old
07-31-2007, 09:13 PM
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You have to take contracts into account because now for the next 5 years (until drury's contract is up) we realistically can't sign any superstars. So was it worth getting two forwards currently ranked 34th and 36th now and will slip as the years go on as opposed to spending the money on guys who are at the top of the list?

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Old
07-31-2007, 09:25 PM
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I don't care about where they rank. they were the two guys that best represented an opportunity to improve the team.

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07-31-2007, 09:28 PM
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The list is the top 36 players. There's 30 teams. We have three guys on the list. Who else is close? Ottawa? San Jose? We're in pretty good shape. We could be one of these teams that doesn't have any players on the list.

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07-31-2007, 09:33 PM
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You could arguably take players 15-36 on that list, put them in a hat, pull them out one by one and end up with an equally reasonable list. Both Gomez and Drury are terrific players with salaries that are a bit high. In three years, half of those guys will have contracts equal to or greater than what Drury and Gomez have signed. It's not a big deal.

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07-31-2007, 09:51 PM
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If you took a poll of juste centers, where would they land? Thats the difference between saying they are the 34 + 36 out of 360 (roughly), meaning they are in the top 10% of ALL forwards and the top, what 3 - 5% of all centers? Too have three 90th percentile forwards on one team is pretty excellent IMHO.

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Old
07-31-2007, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
You have to take contracts into account because now for the next 5 years (until drury's contract is up) we realistically can't sign any superstars. So was it worth getting two forwards currently ranked 34th and 36th now and will slip as the years go on as opposed to spending the money on guys who are at the top of the list?
Which guys at the top of the list were available?

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Old
08-01-2007, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Which guys at the top of the list were available?
and realistically will be in the near future?

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Old
08-01-2007, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Not really.
Didnt have time to check but how many teams can account for having 3 players in the top 36 of that list who've all won Stanley cups?

I see the Lightning and the Rangers...

Paper is paper, ice is ice. You gotta play the games. I wouldnt get too caught up in this stuff.
A very good point! you also pay for winners!!!

besides there is no way i'd take a Mats Sundin on 5.5m over Drury. I wouldnt take the Sedins or Briere over Drury either. Its important to remember that we've not only paid for production with these players, its their pedigree's, their defensive conscience's as well as their characters (specifically Drury)

If you look at the total package these 2 offer they are above alot of these players even if both of them are slightly overpaid.

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Old
08-01-2007, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
There has been a Poll going on of the top forwards in the league over on the NHL polls board. The results to this point are...

1. Sidney Crosby (88.28%)
2. Joe Thornton (41.89%)
3. Vincent Lecavalier (47.73%)
4. Alexander Ovechkin (44.70%)
5. Jaromir Jagr (54.84%)
6. Dany Heatley (36.13%)
7. Joe Sakic (54.17%)
8. Jarome Iginla (45.14%)
9. Daniel Alfredsson (27.54)
T-10. Martin St. Louis (26.95%)
T-10. Marian Hossa (26.95%)
12. Ilya Kovalchuk (36.36%)
13. Henrik Zetterberg (29.22%)
14. Jason Spezza (38.28%)
15. Pavel Datsyuk (28.13%)
16. Olli Jokinen (30.71%)
17. Marian Gaborik (27.86%)
18. Martin Havlat (24.00%)
T-19. Eric Staal (17.60%)
T-19. Evgeni Malkin (17.60%)
21. Teemu Selanne (37.11%)
22. Brad Richards (22.68%)
23. Patrik Elias (26.32%)
24. Peter Forsberg (23.68%)
25. Simon Gagne (28.57%)
26. Rod Brind'Amour (23.21%)
27. Mats Sundin (31.63%)
28. Daniel Briere (24.49%)
29. Patrick Marleau (32.42%)
30. Marc Savard (30.77%)
31. Thomas Vanek (32.39%)
32. Rick Nash (25.57%)
33. Daniel Sedin (29.03%)
34. Scott Gomez (24.19%)
35. Henrik Sedin (31.03%)
T-36. Chris Drury (20.69)
T-36. Patrice Bergeron (20.69)

I think this list is a pretty fair list, definitely not terrible.

Isnt anyone a little fearful that we just signed arguably the 34th and 36th best forwards to 2 of the largest contracts in the league (i havent seen a list but probably like 2 of the top 10 of all players and not just forwards). In 3-5 years if this list were re-done it definitely wouldnt surprise me if they werent top 50 forwards yet they will be in the top 20 of ALL contracts possibly. Someone please lessen my fears because while I am excited as hell for the upcoming season I am extremely worried about the longterm future.
Now go and list them by the number of rings they have. These two players bring some good traits other than their ability to be ranked in the top 10 as forwards.

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Old
08-01-2007, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
Now go and list them by the number of rings they have. These two players bring some good traits other than their ability to be ranked in the top 10 as forwards.
not only that, but this list shows what short memories and selective memories people have. it'd be interesting to see where Gomez was on such a list after his 33 goal, 84 point season?!

over his career Gomez has been a better player than Gagne who is 9 places higher... and how does a choker like Datsyuk get so high? he doesnt have a huge playoff pedigree especially when you see some of the names in the top 20 in comparison.

This list is speculative and based on fans opinions and we can all be biased at times!!!!

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Old
08-01-2007, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NYRJurgen88 View Post
...and how does a choker like Datsyuk get so high? he doesnt have a huge playoff pedigree especially when you see some of the names in the top 20 in comparison.
Datsyuk had an excellent playoffs last year and is very far from a choker by any definition.

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Old
08-01-2007, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Datsyuk had an excellent playoffs last year and is very far from a choker by any definition.
...and before last year when Detroit somewhat overacheived (hence less pressure) Datsyuk had 1 goal in his last 26 playoff performances on very talented and touted Detroit teams...

to be fair, when you think all the criticism A-Rod gets forhis playoff performances, Datsyuk hasnt delivered for his talent.

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Old
08-01-2007, 02:03 PM
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chosen
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Originally Posted by NYRJurgen88 View Post
...and before last year when Detroit somewhat overacheived (hence less pressure) Datsyuk had 1 goal in his last 26 playoff performances on very talented and touted Detroit teams...

to be fair, when you think all the criticism A-Rod gets forhis playoff performances, Datsyuk hasnt delivered for his talent.
Datsyuk is considered about a top 10% current forward while A-Rod is considered by some to be the greatest ballplayer ever. Not a fair comparison at all.

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Old
08-01-2007, 03:20 PM
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How many of those guys on that list signed their current contract as a UFA? I suspect the thing you'll find happens first is that the salaries of these guys is going to sky-rocket in the next couple of seasons as more of them become UFAs.

Once that happens I think you'll find that Gomez and Drury salaries, while high, will not stand out as much as they do today.

In terms of your question...I'll put it slightly different...do you think these guys are star players, or have the possibility of becoming stars on Broadway? I think in the case of Drury I think it's unlikely, and I believe he's a little more overpaid than Gomez is. Gomez to me has more star potential, but hasn't executed to the level I would have expected as a Devil, so there's definitely some question as to what the upside (if any) might be.

Between the two, the Rangers seriously went out on a limb. They believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have a short window to succeed with Jagr, and to some extent they went all out (still big questions about the blueline however).

On the positive side, they've also built a way of bridging this team from the current era to that which will not include Jagr. Last season their top 4 forwards were all on the wrong side of 33...now they'll have a mix of guys who are at the end of their career (Shanahan, Jagr and Straka), some in the prime of their career (Drury and Gomez), others who are potentially entering their prime (Avery) and some prospects/guys who might make an impact in the future.

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Old
08-01-2007, 06:30 PM
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Not worried at all. In fact 3 years from now, they would have moved down the salary list. 5-7 Years from now, other FAs may have passed them by and someone like Gomez, at 7 years from now, might be considered a bargain.

Another reason not to be worried is that the team front loaded the contracts so as they age, they won't be unmoveable, from a contractual stand point. It would cost teams less to take them on, then it is for our cap hit.

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Old
08-01-2007, 08:25 PM
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What if you did a poll of the best clutch players in the league? Would the Drury signing look much less worrisome?

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