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08-02-2007, 05:48 PM
  #51
xlnc66
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Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Briere and Gomez aren't RFA, and aren't comparables for Getzlaf, Perry, Ovechkin, Stoll, etc.

Offer sheets from before also have no effect on post-cap world, and are also way too old to be used as comparables.

Lowe sets a precedent for unproven players coming off entry contracts. Fedorov and Sakic were for late 20s, proven stars.
Guys like Selanne, Ohlund, Tkachuk, Nedved were guys in their early 20's when they were signed to offer sheets. What Lowe is doing now is no different. The Pens gave Ryan Whitney 4mil a season for 6 years before Lowe sent out any offer sheets, so if anyone is setting a precedent for young players with expiring entry level contracts, it's the Pens.

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08-02-2007, 05:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No, none of us recall that. Bert had that contract under his belt when we traded for him. Course, I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

So, Penner's suddenly the end-all-be-all to the Oil's problems? Penner's a great player, but he didn't earn that contract and Burke was very smart to not match the offer and receive 3 draft picks in a very strong draft. Whether he decides to use them in the draft or trade them, imo, it was a smart move.

Penner could become a force to be reckoned with for the rest of his career, he could also be a flop. A lot remains to be seen. My 2nd favorite team is the Ducks, so here's to hoping they regain last year's from!
Can you please tell me who the Ducks traded to get Big Bert then ?

Don't look to hard as he was signed as a UFA


Last edited by chris11inter: 08-02-2007 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Spelling mistake
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08-02-2007, 05:51 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Briere and Gomez aren't RFA, and aren't comparables for Getzlaf, Perry, Ovechkin, Stoll, etc.

Offer sheets from before also have no effect on post-cap world, and are also way too old to be used as comparables.

Lowe sets a precedent for unproven players coming off entry contracts. Fedorov and Sakic were for late 20s, proven stars.
Thanks to Lowe, the difference between RFA and UFA have been well blurred.

Boy, Burkie was sure holding back the tears today. I hope Big Old Bert can save you some face. He was a do nothing on every team he's been on since a year before he was traded from Vancouver.
Burke only likes him because he remembers him some 6 odd years ago.

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08-02-2007, 05:55 PM
  #54
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so who takes penner's spot on the 2nd line?

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08-02-2007, 05:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by chris11inter View Post
The other pays for a guys whose best 2 or 3 years are far behind him and SIGNED HIM AS A UFA and didn't trade for him.
I'll put a little faith in the same GM that thought Teemu Selanne needed another chance. While I don't expect Bertuzzi to revive his career in the same way Selanne did, I don't think he'll implode either.

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If you are going to try and tell me that Bertuzzi is worth 4Mil & Penner isn't then there really is no arguing because that would be a ridicioulus statement in my opinion?

The guy is 24 or 25 and has tremendous upside.
The only point was all that upside cost Edmonton three draft picks IN ADDITION to the 4 million in cash. At the end of the day Bertuzzi could be very well be the better value. We'll have to wait and see.

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08-02-2007, 05:59 PM
  #56
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Who would you guys prefer for 4 million - Penner or Big Burt??

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08-02-2007, 06:01 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris11inter View Post
Can you please tell me who the Ducks traded to get Big Bert then ?

Don't look to hard as he was signed as a UFA
He knows that. Laus723 already explained that he was talking about the Panthers, as he's a Panthers fan.

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08-02-2007, 06:09 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
I hate to state the obvious but the offer sheet to Kesler last year set that precedent.
True, but at least Kesler was 1 year.

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Originally Posted by xlnc66 View Post
Guys like Selanne, Ohlund, Tkachuk, Nedved were guys in their early 20's when they were signed to offer sheets. What Lowe is doing now is no different. The Pens gave Ryan Whitney 4mil a season for 6 years before Lowe sent out any offer sheets, so if anyone is setting a precedent for young players with expiring entry level contracts, it's the Pens.
What part of "signings from before the existence of the cap have no effect on today's contracts" are you missing? And yes, the Whitney and Nash contracts are also pushing RFA salaries up. But considering that Whitney, a defenseman, outscored Penner the forward, I'm going to say that Penner's contract is more inflationary than Whitney's.

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08-02-2007, 06:11 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
True, but at least Kesler was 1 year.



What part of "signings from before the existence of the cap have no effect on today's contracts" are you missing? And yes, the Whitney and Nash contracts are also pushing RFA salaries up. But considering that Whitney, a defenseman, outscored Penner the forward, I'm going to say that Penner's contract is more inflationary than Whitney's.
Roger that. It's all Lowe's fault. If the world ends tomorrow it was all Lowe's fault.

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08-02-2007, 06:15 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by dallas stars 1999 View Post
I would hate to be a Edmonton Oiler fan now! Kevin Lowe better get all his rfa signed now because next year he is going to pay for his signings. Now Buffalo and Anaheim will be going after their rfa's.
Yeah...with all the extra cash they have just sitting around...

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08-02-2007, 06:20 PM
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If he's wise - he'll tie up his RFA's before blowing his wad on UFA's - like some teams do.....

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08-02-2007, 06:27 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
True, but at least Kesler was 1 year.



What part of "signings from before the existence of the cap have no effect on today's contracts" are you missing? And yes, the Whitney and Nash contracts are also pushing RFA salaries up. But considering that Whitney, a defenseman, outscored Penner the forward, I'm going to say that Penner's contract is more inflationary than Whitney's.
The only effect the cap has on contracts now is that it prevents teams like the Rangers from having 80mil payrolls with 9mil players like Holik. An offer sheet back than was still an offer sheet, i don't know why you act like your in some sort of time warp where the 1990's didn't exist and had no effect as to what's going on now.

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08-02-2007, 06:29 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by dermidogg View Post
If he's wise - he'll tie up his RFA's before blowing his wad on UFA's - like some teams do.....
You mean like how Lowe re-signed Torres and Greene days after losing out to all the UFAs he was chasing after?

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08-02-2007, 06:31 PM
  #64
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Did anyone really want Torres and Greene??

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08-02-2007, 06:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Zymergist View Post
There is this little thing called a Salary Cap that means teams have to be very selective about what players they are paying 12% of the cap space to. It has little to do with what the teams revenue is.
Well then if that was his intent, he worded his comment otherwise.

Quote:
Paying him over $4M a season is insanity, and is going to put him in hot water with management in Edmonton, since they usually don't have money to waste.
That statement has no relation to Cap money, that is referring to the money Edmonton has to spend as in self-imposed budget numbers, which cleary is incorrect. So I stick by my point, his original comment took a time machine from 1997.

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08-02-2007, 06:35 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by xlnc66 View Post
The only effect the cap has on contracts now is that it prevents teams like the Rangers from having 80mil payrolls with 9mil players like Holik. An offer sheet back than was still an offer sheet, i don't know why you act like your in some sort of time warp where the 1990's didn't exist and had no effect as to what's going on now.
CBA, 12.9 "The following categories of evidence are inadmissible and shall not be considered by the Salary Arbitrator:
A) Any SPC the term of which began when the Player parto to such SPC was not a Group 2 Player"

Considering that Selanne's 1992 sheet is the very first kind prohibited, then yes I'd say the 1990s have no effect on today's salaries.

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08-02-2007, 06:41 PM
  #67
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The Oilers don't have money to waste? This isn't 2001. The Oilers were 7th in the league for revenue, so as long as the ownership is ok with the proper spending money isn't an issue.
If you'd quoted me properly it would have read "don't usually have money to waste." I know that the "new" ownership group had been struggling with revenue in the past few years and restricted payroll because of it. But if the resurgent Canadian dollar and two playoff runs helped, good for them. Still seems that Penner's being paid nearly twice what he's worth.

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08-02-2007, 06:44 PM
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I expect more moderation from a moderator.
I didn't post it on the Oilers board, was expressing an opinion about a hockey event, and there's nothing that should upset Ducks fans in my post, so I don't get where you're coming from?

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08-02-2007, 06:48 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
CBA, 12.9 "The following categories of evidence are inadmissible and shall not be considered by the Salary Arbitrator:
A) Any SPC the term of which began when the Player parto to such SPC was not a Group 2 Player"

Considering that Selanne's 1992 sheet is the very first kind prohibited, then yes I'd say the 1990s have no effect on today's salaries.
You just won't give up on skirting the issue will you? Ok, how about Tkachuk's 17.2mil/5year offer sheet from the Blackhawks back in 1995, or Grattons 16.5mil/5yr offer sheet from Philly in 1996, are you gonna pretend those don't exist or matter either??

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08-02-2007, 06:59 PM
  #70
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I liked Penner alot, but I am very glad Burke matched this. For future power forwards, we have Getzlaf and Bobby Ryan, both of which probably have better hands, and both of which who will probably be a bit more consistant. For the now, we have Bertuzzi, who, if healthy, will be just as good, if not better than Penner. Carlyle will likely get a good effort out of Bertuzzi, and I'm guessing he'll play Penner's role, just doing a bit better.

But, the best part about it all is the draft picks. Edmonton may have improved, or, they might've gotten worse. Their offense is suspect, especially if Penner pulls a Lupul, and, their defense isn't good at all. They don't have a single shut down guy, and just added two guys who are suspect in their own end. If things don't go right, Edmonton could end up delivering us a franchise defenseman, which is more valuable than Penner, Steve Stamkos, who is more valuable than Penner, or, if everything falls into place, John Tavares, who is worth way more than Penner ever will be. Also, the second round pick could be close to a first as well, and, being that this draft is deep, it could bring us another great player.

Losing Penner hurts, but Edmonton may have potentially dealt us two picks to make this team amazing for years to come. Considering that, and that we've replaced Penner in the now and the future, I'm very happy with what's went down.

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08-02-2007, 07:02 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris11inter View Post
Did you say Penner is an overpayment?
Do you recall you signing Todd Bertuzzi for $4M/Year.
Let's see

Bertuzzi is a proven PF.
Bertuzzi 05-06 71 points in 82 games
Bertuzzi 06-07 1 PPG before injured, 11 points in 15 games in total

For all the crap Bertuzzi cops (he deserves a lot of it) he's still a 70+ points per year player until proven otherwise. Penner has shown he's a 45 point per year player so far.

So that's Bertuzzi + 1st + 2nd + 3rd + 300K cap (?) for Penner.

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08-02-2007, 07:15 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by chris11inter View Post
If you are going to try and tell me that Bertuzzi is worth 4Mil & Penner isn't then there really is no arguing because that would be a ridicioulus statement in my opinion?
That is easy Bert >> Penner

No one is arguing that the Bert deal is without any risk. However Bert has proven himself a strong player for many years and since 2001 Bert has played 320 games and got 324 points. He has had one horrible year last year but was still a force in the playoffs; far more of a force then Penner was who many times got bumped off the Getz-Perry line for May who is far less talented then Penner but 100x more heart. Even in Bert's horrible last year season, he still managed 11 points in 15 games and that is nothing to sneeze at.

If Bert is healthy next season, he is a steal of a deal for $4M, if he is not then the deal sucks. The risk is not how good Bert is, it is how good is Bert's back. The Bert deal can pay off this year, or we can toss him on long-term injured reserve which at his age will take him off the Salary Cap and we can scramble for something else and drop him in 2 years.

Penner on the other hand has significant holes in his game. Holes that did not affect the Ducks much last year because the rest of the team covered for them. However the Oilers next year are no where near the team the Ducks were last year and those holes will become more painful to the Oilers unless Penner really steps up his game. Penner has no history of being able to play consistently over many years at a high level nor has he ever shown that he can play well with poor line mates, something Bert has done.

Penner does have the potential to be worth $4.3 million, but he also has a potential to Lupul next year and be worth $1M. He will be in a pressure situation to perform he did not see in Anaheim with a team that has shown far less ability to develop young talent then Anaheim has in recent years. If Penner fails to develop you have no outs, no one will trade for him at that price and he becomes an albatross for 5 years.

The Penner deal is a far far bigger risk then the Bert deal is. I think Bert is being overpaid a little bit (I think he is worth about $3-3.5M) given the risk involved, but Penner is being paid double what I think he is worth right now.

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08-02-2007, 07:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Boy, Burkie was sure holding back the tears today. I hope Big Old Bert can save you some face. He was a do nothing on every team he's been on since a year before he was traded from Vancouver.
The year before he was traded he put up 71 points, the year before that 60 points in 69. Both of those numbers would have made him the top scorer in Edmonton this past season. I guess that says a lot about the state of affairs in Edmonton given Bertuzzi did nothing and still put up more points than any Oiler.

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08-02-2007, 07:19 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by xlnc66 View Post
You just won't give up on skirting the issue will you? Ok, how about Tkachuk's 17.2mil/5year offer sheet from the Blackhawks back in 1995, or Grattons 16.5mil/5yr offer sheet from Philly in 1996, are you gonna pretend those don't exist or matter either??
How am I skirting anything? None of those offer sheets affect Penner's/Getzlaf's/whoever's negotiations. Indirectly a little in that they influenced the next year's contracts, which influenced the following year's up until this year. But it's been more than 10 years. Between then and now there's been a salary cap instituted, a 25% rollback in salaries, and a 29% increase in the cap max.

Let's see you go to a gas station and demand your gas for 1995 prices and see what happens.

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08-02-2007, 08:11 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
The year before he was traded he put up 71 points, the year before that 60 points in 69. Both of those numbers would have made him the top scorer in Edmonton this past season. I guess that says a lot about the state of affairs in Edmonton given Bertuzzi did nothing and still put up more points than any Oiler.
Was that before or after he was ostracized from Vancouver?

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