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Old
08-06-2007, 02:23 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
they're worse off simply because the Flyers should be vastly better, the Pens and Rangers look to be better, and the Devils are still a stronger club. while the drop for the Isles may be overstated, the growth of their opposition will be a problem for them...

And, I did concede that point: "The real issue for the Isles is not that they have lost ground, but that other teams have improved."

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08-06-2007, 03:56 AM
  #102
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This thread hurts my brain and my sides all at the same time.

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08-06-2007, 05:45 AM
  #103
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I'm not the only one saying it, look at the report

All 30 NHL team's Report Cards, by Division, are found at this link:

http://www.sportsline.com/nhl

Final Rankings:

Philadelphia Flyers A+
Pittsburgh Penguins A
New York Rangers A
Los Angeles Kings A
Detroit Red Wings A-
Anaheim Ducks A-
Ottawa Senators B+
Washington Capitals B+
St. Louis Blues B+
Chicago Blackhawks B+
Colorado Avalanche B+
Calgary Flames B+
San Jose Sharks B+
New Jersey Devils B
Florida Panthers B
Toronto Maple Leafs B
Carolina Hurricanes C+
New York Islanders C+
Buffalo Sabres C
Atlanta Thrashers C
Minnesota Wild C
Tampa Bay Lightning C-
Montreal Canadiens C-
Vancouver Canucks C-
Edmonton Oilers C-
Boston Bruins D
Dallas Stars D
Phoenix Coyotes D-
Columbus Blue Jackets F
Nashville Predators F

Conclusion: everyone in our division improved and is ranked high except Islanders. So I'm not the only one saying it, this is commonly understood that the Islanders will be struggling more then last year with the tighter competition.

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08-06-2007, 09:43 AM
  #104
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Conclusion: everyone in our division improved and is ranked high except Islanders. So I'm not the only one saying it, this is commonly understood that the Islanders will be struggling more then last year with the tighter competition.
Just like we were supposed to finish bottom 3 in the conference last year.

I am actually suprised whoever wrote that gave us a C+ which is better then most reporters would give us(most citing the "overpayment" for Fedotenko for a measly 1 year as the reason). I like the fact whoever did the rankings rated Pittsburgh good, they my pick so far for best off season, they made a bunch of low risk moves that should improve them greatly this year.

That being said i am pretty sure Boston got high marks last year on free agent signings last year


Last edited by boredmale: 08-06-2007 at 10:25 AM.
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08-06-2007, 10:09 AM
  #105
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Considering he had a much more talented team last season to work with and they barely made the playoffs on the last day of the year against a back-up goalie, I'm not too worried about how dangerous they are.

Any team can win any night, but in the long run, I don't expect to see the Isles close to the playoffs.

Always happy to be proven wrong, though.
Yeah, I always react too strongly to optimism. I get the impression that many Flyer fans here think the Isle will be pushovers, when I think that any team coached by Ted Nolan will be a tough opponent.

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08-06-2007, 10:28 AM
  #106
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Maybe we can dig up some Winnipeg Jets fans, witgh their rally cry "we want the jets back!!" and "nhl in Winnipeg again!!"


and you're claiming to be from the peg?

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08-06-2007, 11:50 AM
  #107
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and you're claiming to be from the peg?
I was never a Jets fan, not once. I wasn't glad to see them gone, as I won't get to see the Flyers come here again, but some of these local nuts are so oblivious to reality, it gets annoying listening to the radio or opening up a paper.

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08-06-2007, 11:57 AM
  #108
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what's so nuts about wanting a team?

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08-06-2007, 12:10 PM
  #109
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what's so nuts about wanting a team?
it's living in a fantasy world

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08-06-2007, 01:00 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by IceHot View Post
All 30 NHL team's Report Cards, by Division, are found at this link:

http://www.sportsline.com/nhl

Final Rankings:

Philadelphia Flyers A+
Pittsburgh Penguins A
New York Rangers A
Los Angeles Kings A
Detroit Red Wings A-
Anaheim Ducks A-
Ottawa Senators B+
Washington Capitals B+
St. Louis Blues B+
Chicago Blackhawks B+
Colorado Avalanche B+
Calgary Flames B+
San Jose Sharks B+
New Jersey Devils B
Florida Panthers B
Toronto Maple Leafs B
Carolina Hurricanes C+
New York Islanders C+
Buffalo Sabres C
Atlanta Thrashers C
Minnesota Wild C
Tampa Bay Lightning C-
Montreal Canadiens C-
Vancouver Canucks C-
Edmonton Oilers C-
Boston Bruins D
Dallas Stars D
Phoenix Coyotes D-
Columbus Blue Jackets F
Nashville Predators F

Conclusion: everyone in our division improved and is ranked high except Islanders. So I'm not the only one saying it, this is commonly understood that the Islanders will be struggling more then last year with the tighter competition.

Yeah, because Sportsline is written by the almighty hand of the omnipotent one himself. Bow and yield offerings!

You may recall that Sportsline predicted the Flyers would win the cup after they signed Forsberg.

Just because Sportsline says every team will do better does not make it reality.

Just a quick GOOGLE search yields the following predictions for a seaon or two back:

By now everyone knows that Sports Illustrated takes the Flames, a choice that might have inspired the recent run on Calgary picks.

The Hockey News picked the Flyers in its preseason yearbook, but the consensus is crumbling. The Flyers rank behind Ottawa and Tampa in the latest Eastern Conference predictions.

Over at ESPN.com, three of six nabobs back the Flames. One guy sticks with Tampa Bay and the other two like the Canucks and their iffy defense. One of the Vancouver believers is the "fantasy editor" - can the fantasy geeks be trusted to know anything about real games played in real leagues?

USA Today won't pick a Cup winner. But columnist Ted Montgomery wins the award for most recycled cliches. He's big on the Senators, because Hasek "shores up one chink" in the armor, and Heatley benefits from "a change of scenery," and Spezza is ready to join the "upper echelon" of NHL stars. In the Western Conference, Ted assures us that the Sharks are "flying under the radar."

In Canada, six of seven hockey goons at TSN picked the Senators during a season preview broadcast Tuesday night. The lone dissenter is another Calgary convert. The goons also talked up San Jose as the fastest and most exciting team in the league (maybe TSN has a more sensitive radar than USA Today). Nashville is the trendy dark horse, annointed to finish ahead of Detroit in the Central Division.

TSN's rival network, Sportsnet, only trusts its brainiacs to name Stanley Cup finalists. That's all they do on the website, at least. Ottawa, Philadelphia, Calgary and Vancouver are popular names. The Sharks are mentioned again. Canadian fans will know some of these guys from their "hockey panel" chats on TV, usually long on bluster and short on coherent thought.

Hockey reporters at Canadian Press are evenly divided - three pick Calgary and three Philadelphia. They're also fond of the Predators, naming Nashville, Chicago and Pittsburgh as teams on the rise this year.


Guess what bucko? Opinions are like A-holes. Everybody has one. And, year after year, all the "experts" turn out to be dead wrong in their predictions and assessments of teams.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 08-06-2007 at 01:13 PM.
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08-06-2007, 01:54 PM
  #111
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I don't think Sportsline's ratings are meant to show what order they think teams are likely to finish in points or what their chances are at winning the cup. It's just a grade of their off-season moves thus far so take a chill pill.

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08-06-2007, 01:58 PM
  #112
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I don't think Sportsline's ratings are meant to show what order they think teams are likely to finish in points or what their chances are at winning the cup. It's just a grade of their off-season moves thus far so take a chill pill.
When you go to the pharmacy to pick up your own chill pills, maybe you can bring one back for me.

the point was that sportslines OPINIONS are just that - OPINIONS.

Anyway, it is a moot point. Nobody, even the Islander fans here, dispute the idea that other teams improved in this conference.

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08-06-2007, 02:06 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Nobody, even the Islander fans here, dispute the idea that other teams improved in this conference.
And I'm pretty sure nobody, even the Flyers fans here, think that the Flyers are going to have any kind of legitimate cup run this year. I think most are expecting us and Jersey to battle it out for 3rd in the division and are just hoping for a lower playoff seed.

Edit: Basically Sportline thinks the Flyers got a bunch better (yeah, maybe A+ could be a little overboard) while the Islanders are about the same? Do you disagree? Do you think anybody made out better than the Flyers?


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08-06-2007, 02:23 PM
  #114
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And I'm pretty sure nobody, even the Flyers fans here, think that the Flyers are going to have any kind of legitimate cup run this year. I think most are expecting us and Jersey to battle it out for 3rd in the division and are just hoping for a lower playoff seed.

Edit: Basically Sportline thinks the Flyers got a bunch better (yeah, maybe A+ could be a little overboard) while the Islanders are about the same? Do you disagree? Do you think anybody made out better than the Flyers?
I dont think any team adressed their needs more then the Flyers did. The Rangers got Gomez and Drury sure, but the Flyers adressed the weakness they had at first line center, secondary scoring and on the blueline. Will it work? who knows, but no one can knock Holmer for trying. He has put the pieces in place.

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08-06-2007, 02:29 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by ClarkeIsGoneDotCom View Post
I dont think any team adressed their needs more then the Flyers did. The Rangers got Gomez and Drury sure, but the Flyers adressed the weakness they had at first line center, secondary scoring and on the blueline. Will it work? who knows, but no one can knock Holmer for trying. He has put the pieces in place.
My questions weren't directed at you but I'll accept your answers anyway.

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08-06-2007, 02:36 PM
  #116
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My questions weren't directed at you but I'll accept your answers anyway.
yeah I know. just wanted to put my 2 cents in lol

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08-06-2007, 02:49 PM
  #117
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And I'm pretty sure nobody, even the Flyers fans here, think that the Flyers are going to have any kind of legitimate cup run this year. I think most are expecting us and Jersey to battle it out for 3rd in the division and are just hoping for a lower playoff seed.

Edit: Basically Sportline thinks the Flyers got a bunch better (yeah, maybe A+ could be a little overboard) while the Islanders are about the same? Do you disagree? Do you think anybody made out better than the Flyers?
Yeah, I agree with Sportsline's take. Flyers got a lot better. Isles stayed the same.

I'm not as certain the Flyer's will be that highly ranked as you though. That much roster turnover often leads to shortterm problems. It could happen, but I would not be shocked to see it go the other way. For one thing, I'm not sure the goaltending is there. I'm also not sure the depth on defense is there.

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08-06-2007, 03:20 PM
  #118
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Yeah, I agree with Sportsline's take. Flyers got a lot better. Isles stayed the same.

I'm not as certain the Flyer's will be that highly ranked as you though. That much roster turnover often leads to shortterm problems. It could happen, but I would not be shocked to see it go the other way. For one thing, I'm not sure the goaltending is there. I'm also not sure the depth on defense is there.
Really i can think of any team in the atlantic that has a great defense or really sured it up with UFA's this off season, dont get me wrong, the Flyers got a hell of players in Smith and Timmonen and signed Briere, i feel they did much better than even the Rags, who might get good value of Gomez, if and only if he clicks with Jagr. I think the BEST the isles can do is squeek into teh playoffs again, but we need 2 dmen and a strong 2nd line center who can play both ends. We will get bounced out of the 1st roundm, if we get in.......but i don't know untill they play the games, everybody has an equal chance of winning the cup and being top 3 worst in the league.

sorry if people here thought i was trolling, i thought a flyers fan was making an absured comment, which he didnt make, so i appologize.

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08-06-2007, 03:43 PM
  #119
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Really i can think of any team in the atlantic that has a great defense or really sured it up with UFA's this off season, dont get me wrong, the Flyers got a hell of players in Smith and Timmonen and signed Briere, i feel they did much better than even the Rags, who might get good value of Gomez, if and only if he clicks with Jagr. I think the BEST the isles can do is squeek into teh playoffs again, but we need 2 dmen and a strong 2nd line center who can play both ends. We will get bounced out of the 1st roundm, if we get in.......but i don't know untill they play the games, everybody has an equal chance of winning the cup and being top 3 worst in the league.

sorry if people here thought i was trolling, i thought a flyers fan was making an absured comment, which he didnt make, so i appologize.
Timonen, Smith, Kukkonen, Hatcher, Coburn, and Gauthier (who i think needs to be moved to create cap space... and get Picard on this roster) should be a very stable defensive unit. If nothing else, they should be one of the stronger defensive groups in the league... their problem is going to be that outside of Timonen, none of them really plays a strong offensive game from the back, which means the forwards won't have a lot of help in getting goals on the board.

However, Timonen, Smith, and Kukkonen will provide very strong defensive play... Hatcher in minutes that are portioned out remains a very good defensive zone defender (he can be abused in transition), and Coburn has all the tools to be a stud defender in this league, while Gauthier is a hitter who is a bit too maligned. I would argue the Flyers will have a very strong defensive unit as far as stopping the opposition... one of the better groups in the league in that regard.

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08-06-2007, 04:00 PM
  #120
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Timonen, Smith, Kukkonen, Hatcher, Coburn, and Gauthier (who i think needs to be moved to create cap space... and get Picard on this roster) should be a very stable defensive unit. If nothing else, they should be one of the stronger defensive groups in the league... their problem is going to be that outside of Timonen, none of them really plays a strong offensive game from the back, which means the forwards won't have a lot of help in getting goals on the board.

However, Timonen, Smith, and Kukkonen will provide very strong defensive play... Hatcher in minutes that are portioned out remains a very good defensive zone defender (he can be abused in transition), and Coburn has all the tools to be a stud defender in this league, while Gauthier is a hitter who is a bit too maligned. I would argue the Flyers will have a very strong defensive unit as far as stopping the opposition... one of the better groups in the league in that regard.
Agreed. I think our defense corps is really the only sure thing at this point with our team. Forward cohesion is without a doubt the biggest question mark entering the season. When it comes to the defense i think they are really going to impress the doubters. Every player in the group is a very well rounded player (save Hatcher, who is phenomenal on the PK), and the depth in the minors with Picard and Parent makes injuries tolerable.

This year we will see Coburn blossom into a stellar two-way defender who is going to be one tough SOB to deal with in his own zone

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08-07-2007, 03:52 AM
  #121
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Timonen, Smith, Kukkonen, Hatcher, Coburn, and Gauthier (who i think needs to be moved to create cap space... and get Picard on this roster) should be a very stable defensive unit. If nothing else, they should be one of the stronger defensive groups in the league... their problem is going to be that outside of Timonen, none of them really plays a strong offensive game from the back, which means the forwards won't have a lot of help in getting goals on the board.

However, Timonen, Smith, and Kukkonen will provide very strong defensive play... Hatcher in minutes that are portioned out remains a very good defensive zone defender (he can be abused in transition), and Coburn has all the tools to be a stud defender in this league, while Gauthier is a hitter who is a bit too maligned. I would argue the Flyers will have a very strong defensive unit as far as stopping the opposition... one of the better groups in the league in that regard.
Timonen is the only sure thing there. Smith is coming off a very weak season and he may or may not rebound. Hatcher is simply ineffective. Coburn does have the tools, but he is totally unproven. gauthier is just plain bad. Kukkonen, like Coburn, is largely unproven.

It could go either way, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict that the Flyers have difficulty keeping the puck out of the net. I certainly don't see this as one of the better groups in the league. And, the Flyers don't really have the goaltending to make up for a so-so defense.

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08-07-2007, 04:20 AM
  #122
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hi darth

about your opinion on our defensmen, i disagree a bit

smith was coming off a weak season, but the oilers last season were absolutely horrible, and if he's playing with timonen i think he has a good chance of bounching back. hatcher played pretty good with coburn last season, though hatchers only above average part of his game would be his penalty killing, so that might be a problem for sure, but i don't think he's necessarily ineffective. kukkonen will probably turn into an under the radar type of guy that just gets the job done, and hes a very good shot blocker as well

so i think we do have some visible weak points on d, but it won't be a HUGE problem

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08-07-2007, 06:54 AM
  #123
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hi darth

about your opinion on our defensmen, i disagree a bit

smith was coming off a weak season, but the oilers last season were absolutely horrible, and if he's playing with timonen i think he has a good chance of bounching back. hatcher played pretty good with coburn last season, though hatchers only above average part of his game would be his penalty killing, so that might be a problem for sure, but i don't think he's necessarily ineffective. kukkonen will probably turn into an under the radar type of guy that just gets the job done, and hes a very good shot blocker as well

so i think we do have some visible weak points on d, but it won't be a HUGE problem

But it's the only problem we got! I think management now will wait and see what this defense is capable of and maybe swing a trade if it doesn't work out. I think our offense might win enough games until then to keep us in the PO hunt at least. It would be unethical to trade a player recently injured (Gauthier) but he's the one that comes in mind. But what says he can't get even better than he's been before?

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08-07-2007, 07:39 AM
  #124
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Timonen is the only sure thing there. Smith is coming off a very weak season and he may or may not rebound. Hatcher is simply ineffective. Coburn does have the tools, but he is totally unproven. gauthier is just plain bad. Kukkonen, like Coburn, is largely unproven.

It could go either way, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict that the Flyers have difficulty keeping the puck out of the net. I certainly don't see this as one of the better groups in the league. And, the Flyers don't really have the goaltending to make up for a so-so defense.
I disagree. This defense is made for keeping the puck out of the net. Where they'll struggle is moving the puck and chipping in on offense, save for Timonen.

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08-07-2007, 12:40 PM
  #125
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Timonen is the only sure thing there. Smith is coming off a very weak season and he may or may not rebound. Hatcher is simply ineffective. Coburn does have the tools, but he is totally unproven. gauthier is just plain bad. Kukkonen, like Coburn, is largely unproven.

It could go either way, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict that the Flyers have difficulty keeping the puck out of the net. I certainly don't see this as one of the better groups in the league. And, the Flyers don't really have the goaltending to make up for a so-so defense.
your opinion suggests that they will be one of the worst defenses in the entire league... as this defense has almost zero upside, if they can't effectively play defense, then they're simply awful.

i don't buy that in the slightest.

Timonen is a solid two-way guy.

Smith is a defensive defenseman... is he the greatest ever? no, but he's certainly very solid defensively.

Kukkonen... is a largely UNKNOWN commodity. I question his ability to provide much offense, but he's one of the better shot-blockers i've seen (Meltzer has written extensively about how effective he is in that regard), and the guy was a +4 playing for two of the worst teams in the league while only putting up 14 pts himself. I don't care how much anyone wants to spit on the +/- statistic, that's friggin impressive. How much offense can he provide? unproven. Very stable and effective defensively? very proven in my mind after watching him last year.

"Hatcher is simply ineffective".

No offense, but all this statement proves is that you're following company line and don't watch the Flyers enough to actually have a nuanced opinion about what Hatcher brings to the table. He remains a VERY effective PK'er in this league, and I'm not one to blow smoke up any player's ***, just look at some of the antagonism i receive for not thinking everything is gravy after this offseason. Hatcher is one of the main reasons why one of the most **** teams in the league had an extremely strong PK all year. Hatcher is also very effective when play is established in the defensive zone. Where he IS ineffective is if he gets caught in a transition game, or is put out there against very fast offensive lines... thus why I said you had to portion his minutes some.

That being said, Coburn and Hatcher were a very good pairing for this team down the stretch when the team was playing better. Ideally Hatcher sees less minutes than he has the last couple of years, and a great deal of them on the PK. I wouldn't be sad at all if they moved him and replaced him with Picard, but that's a salary cap consideration, not a statement about his inability to compete in this league.

Coburn, I won't lie, I think will be a stud sooner rather than later after watching him play his 20 games here last year. Will he have his struggles at times? absolutely. However, even last year he was playing an effective 20 minutes a night for the club... has unbelievable skating ability to go with his size, and some people are convinced he can score too (I don't think that's going to happen). Unproven, sure... but he didn't look out of place competing in this league last year, and he should only improve with consistent minutes and games... something he will get in spades this upcoming year.

Gauthier bashing, i love it. top 4? i hate him. bottom pairing defenseman? he's ideal. Sydney Crosby referred to him as the 'scariest player in the league' at one point if i recall the quote correctly. While he's an average at best defender, and has almost no offensive ability... he remains one of the best hitters in the league, which is an element i think every defense needs... the fear factor. If he's given 15 or so a night on the bottom pairing he is very effective, more than that and you're stretching him.

That being said, I think Gauthier gets traded, because I think they need Picard on this team so they have another defenseman who can play the PP. Picard probably needs to play a year in the AHL, and would weaken the unit defensively... but has a good shot and will help immensely on the PP in comparison to some of these other guys.

So, in summation, the only thing I'm reasonably confident about this defense is that they're going to be an effective unit in the defensive facet of the game. As an offensive unit, they provide almost nothing and it's not a stretch to imagine Timonen being the only guy with 30+ pts... Hatcher, Gauthier, and Smith combined won't outscore Timonen... Kukkonen and Coburn will be 20-30 pt guys most likely. That hurts over the course of a season.

I like our top 4 against any other team in the Atlantic... and there aren't too many units in the East I'd have qualms matching them up defensively against. Doesn't mean their the best unit, as I believe in the merits of two-way play... nor does it mean team defense will be great, as we have some forwards who need to extensively develop their defensive games.


Last edited by Jester: 08-07-2007 at 02:11 PM.
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