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Jovanovski

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01-04-2004, 02:14 PM
  #1
Hi-wayman
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Jovanovski

On the Canucks Board, I suggested that the Canucks trade Jovanovski. Both Sopel & Allen are continuing to rapidly improve & develop. If they continue to do so, I could see Jovocop being tradable later this season, say at the trade deadline or even in the off season just before the junior draft.

Keeping in mind that the Brian Burke will not take on more salary than what he is giving up & that the Canucks are a young, well stocked team so would not go for a quantity for quality trade, what one player or prospect would your team trade for Jovanovski? Also keep in mind that Jovo just signed a new 3 year contract at $4.5, $4.75 & $5.25 mil & is still the cheapest & youngest defenseman out of whom I would consider are the top five #1D's currently in the league.

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01-04-2004, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
Keeping in mind that the Brian Burke will not take on more salary than what he is giving up & that the Canucks are a young, well stocked team so would not go for a quantity for quality trade, what one player or prospect would your team trade for Jovanovski? Also keep in mind that Jovo just signed a new 3 year contract at $4.5, $4.75 & $5.25 mil & is still the cheapest & youngest defenseman out of whom I would consider are the top five #1D's currently in the league.
I think Burke would take on a bit of salary for the right offer. Suppose Boston offered Joe Thornton for a deal centered around Jovo, I think Burke would consider it. But, the only situation in which I see Burke tinkering with the team's core is in the off-season. If the Canucks have a bad playoffs, moves will be made. If they have a strong playoffs, Burke will add to the teams core, not adjust it.

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01-04-2004, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I think Burke would take on a bit of salary for the right offer. Suppose Boston offered Joe Thornton for a deal centered around Jovo, I think Burke would consider it. But, the only situation in which I see Burke tinkering with the team's core is in the off-season. If the Canucks have a bad playoffs, moves will be made. If they have a strong playoffs, Burke will add to the teams core, not adjust it.

Unless a deal like this comes along, it would make no sense to trade Jovocop. You're simply not going to be able to move a high salary guy like that for fair return under the present market conditions. Even stud players in their prime (like Jovocop) are going to be hard to move if they are making hefty salaries.

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01-04-2004, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Unless a deal like this comes along, it would make no sense to trade Jovocop.
Agreed. I'm very happy having a one-two punch of Jovo and Ohlund on defense. It would take a severe overpayment for the Canucks to trade him,.


Quote:
You're simply not going to be able to move a high salary guy like that for fair return under the present market conditions. Even stud players in their prime (like Jovocop) are going to be hard to move if they are making hefty salaries.
Jovo isn't high salary. He's arguable a top 5 defenseman in the NHL, at least top 10 and is cheaper then most, if not all the players in that group. $5 mil is very manageable for a #1 d-man.

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01-04-2004, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Jovo isn't high salary. He's arguable a top 5 defenseman in the NHL, at least top 10 and is cheaper then most, if not all the players in that group. $5 mil is very manageable for a #1 d-man.
overpayed or worth every penny... $5 million a season still scares all teams with the upcoming CBA. $5 million a season for Lidstrom will still scare away most teams

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01-04-2004, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LaVal575
overpayed or worth every penny... $5 million a season still scares all teams with the upcoming CBA. $5 million a season for Lidstrom will still scare away most teams
$5 mil isn't a lot to pay for a #1 d-man now, or heading into a new CBA. Worst case scenario(or I guess best case scenario) is that the top players will make $5 mil in a new CBA, and I would consider Jovo amongst the top 50 players in the NHL.

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01-04-2004, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaVal575
overpayed or worth every penny... $5 million a season still scares all teams with the upcoming CBA. $5 million a season for Lidstrom will still scare away most teams

Completely agree. Jovocop is, relatively speaking, reasonably paid. It is just that the $ situation is so tight. He'd be hard to move at that price.

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01-04-2004, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
$5 mil isn't a lot to pay for a #1 d-man now, or heading into a new CBA. Worst case scenario(or I guess best case scenario) is that the top players will make $5 mil in a new CBA, and I would consider Jovo amongst the top 50 players in the NHL.

Hamrlik makes 3.6 million a year. He isn't at Jovo's level, but isn't really that far off. Yet, it is becoming apparent that the Isles can't get fair value for him. I think the same would be true of Jovocop.

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01-04-2004, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Hamrlik makes 3.6 million a year. He isn't at Jovo's level, but isn't really that far off. Yet, it is becoming apparent that the Isles can't get fair value for him. I think the same would be true of Jovocop.
Hamrlik is up for a new contract though, will he ask for Jovo-type money? Is he worth $5 mil a season? Judging by his play this season, I would say no. How long of a deal will he be seeking? Would he opt to sign a one year contract in order to become a UFA in one season? Hamrlik is a solid #1 d-man, but he's not a Jovo-type player, a guy who can singlehandedly dominate a game.

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01-04-2004, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Hamrlik is up for a new contract though, will he ask for Jovo-type money? Is he worth $5 mil a season? Judging by his play this season, I would say no. How long of a deal will he be seeking? Would he opt to sign a one year contract in order to become a UFA in one season? Hamrlik is a solid #1 d-man, but he's not a Jovo-type player, a guy who can singlehandedly dominate a game.

Hamrlik is not in Jovo's class, but he is not that far behind. Teams don't want to pay his current salary, or the raise he is seeking (probably to about 4.5 million) because $ in the NHL are so tight.

Jovocop is an elite player, and I would agree that he is a notch above Hamrlik and other players of that ilk. But, even elite guys like him are not going to be moved easily at that salary level. There are only one or two teams in the NHL that could afford to take on that contract right now, and would be willing to do it.

We could go back and forth on this for a while. But, the bottom line for me is this: I think there are probably only two or three players in the NHL that make over 4 or 5 million and could return fair value in a deal. I simply don't think Jovocop is one of those guys. If you dealt him, I think you'd find what other teams have found when they tried to move high salary players - there aren't any potential trade partners.

You could argue that the Nucks will simply absorb a similar level of salary in the deal but I still don't think that would do it. Its not just $ amount that concerns teams, it is avoiding big contracts for individual players.

Nucks could move Jovocop for fair value if (and only if) they accepted another high contract in return. At this point, I don't see that as viable. So, I see little realy possibility Jovocop gets moved.

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01-04-2004, 04:19 PM
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Under the right circumstances I could see this happening. Presumably, you are saying that you believe that the Canucks have sufficient depth to trade Jovanovski in order to -- not save payroll or stack up on draft picks -- but to take back a comparably paid scoring forward for the second line. Provided there isn't a large payroll discrepancy, a deal could be possible.

If you want to trade a top defenseman making $5 million for a top forward making the same, I think you would find takers. There are more high-end forwards out there and available than there are elite scoring defensemen. A lot of teams would be very interested, and would overpay (i.e. add a high draft pick, for example.)

As an example, and I am not suggesting they are comparable, but a team like Washington would give up Lang for Jovanovski, both $5 million players, to shore up its defense. Now I know Lang is older and that Vancouver would rightfully not consider him to be of equal value. I'm not suggesting otherwise. Yet that sort of deal, from a team rich in forwards but in need of help on defense, would not be so unlikely. There are 20 teams out there in dire need of help on defense. Tampa Bay might be a possible trade partner.

All that said, I do not think Vancouver has nearly the depth on defense to be able to afford such a trade. Doing so would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, in my eyes.

 
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01-04-2004, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btmarshall
Hi-wayman:
Under the right circumstances I could see this happening. Presumably, you are saying that you believe that the Canucks have sufficient depth to trade Jovanovski in order to -- not save payroll or stack up on draft picks -- but to take back a comparably paid scoring forward for the second line. Provided there isn't a large payroll discrepancy, a deal could be possible.

If you want to trade a top defenseman making $5 million for a top forward making the same, I think you would find takers. There are more high-end forwards out there and available than there are elite scoring defensemen. A lot of teams would be very interested, and would overpay (i.e. add a high draft pick, for example.)

As an example, and I am not suggesting they are comparable, but a team like Washington would give up Lang for Jovanovski, both $5 million players, to shore up its defense. Now I know Lang is older and that Vancouver would rightfully not consider him to be of equal value. I'm not suggesting otherwise. Yet that sort of deal, from a team rich in forwards but in need of help on defense, would not be so unlikely. There are 20 teams out there in dire need of help on defense. Tampa Bay might be a possible trade partner.

All that said, I do not think Vancouver has nearly the depth on defense to be able to afford such a trade. Doing so would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, in my eyes.
Using that logic, how about Jovocop to St. Louis deal, with the principal return being Demitra VCR gests a high level forward, St. Louis gets an elite defensemen. Then, when Macinnis retires, they have some protection in case Pronger leaves as a UFA.

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01-04-2004, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
You could argue that the Nucks will simply absorb a similar level of salary in the deal but I still don't think that would do it. Its not just $ amount that concerns teams, it is avoiding big contracts for individual players.


Nucks could move Jovocop for fair value if (and only if) they accepted another high contract in return.
This is the only way I see Jovo dealt anyway, for a forward who is just as valuable making around the same ammount of money(the Canucks won't want a quantity for quality deal and likely wouldn't want prospects, so getting a proven forward would be the asking price, and proven players cost $$).

Jovo is a top d-man in the leauge, easily top 10 and possibly top 5. At 27 he is only entering his prime and wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that he could become the best d-man in the league in the near future if he continues to improve like he has(although I think Pronger is the best d-man in the league and will be for the next 5 years). If a team wants a d-man like this, in his prime, they aren't going to get him cheaply in terms of salary. I disagree that teams would be turned off by Jovo's salary as for a player his age and status, it's very good. If a team wants a proven #1 d-man who is amongst the best in the league, they won't get that player for cheap in both salary and trade assets.


Quote:
At this point, I don't see that as viable. So, I see little realy possibility Jovocop gets moved.
Agreed 100%. As of right now, the Canucks have 0 incentive to move any of their core players(Nazzy, Bert, Mo, Jovo, Ohlund, Cloutier). The only way I see Burke considering trading one of these players is if either, A.) A team seriously overpays, then Burke has to at least consider the offer, or B.) The team tanks in the playoffs and Burke feels that the core needs to be tinkered with.

Quote:
Using that logic, how about Jovocop to St. Louis deal, with the principal return being Demitra VCR gests a high level forward, St. Louis gets an elite defensemen. Then, when Macinnis retires, they have some protection in case Pronger leaves as a UFA.
I don't really see this as an option. Yes Demitra is a top forward, but he also makes $2 mil more, is an upcoming RFA and is closer to UFA status than Jovo. on top of that the Canucks likely wouldn't make such a high profile trade in conference. I think it would take a Joe Thornton-type player to get the Canucks to move Jovo(not saying that Jovo is worth Thornton, but that is the only type of player that would make moving him worthwhile).

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01-04-2004, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btmarshall
Hi-wayman:
Under the right circumstances I could see this happening. Presumably, you are saying that you believe that the Canucks have sufficient depth to trade Jovanovski in order to -- not save payroll or stack up on draft picks -- but to take back a comparably paid scoring forward for the second line. Provided there isn't a large payroll discrepancy, a deal could be possible.

If you want to trade a top defenseman making $5 million for a top forward making the same, I think you would find takers. There are more high-end forwards out there and available than there are elite scoring defensemen. A lot of teams would be very interested, and would overpay (i.e. add a high draft pick, for example.)

As an example, and I am not suggesting they are comparable, but a team like Washington would give up Lang for Jovanovski, both $5 million players, to shore up its defense. Now I know Lang is older and that Vancouver would rightfully not consider him to be of equal value. I'm not suggesting otherwise. Yet that sort of deal, from a team rich in forwards but in need of help on defense, would not be so unlikely. There are 20 teams out there in dire need of help on defense. Tampa Bay might be a possible trade partner.

All that said, I do not think Vancouver has nearly the depth on defense to be able to afford such a trade. Doing so would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, in my eyes.
You have an understanding as to where I was thinking this would lead. Jovo, because he is a defenseman & not a forward, probably has more trade value than even either Naslund or Bertuzzi. Losing Jovo would degrade the Canucks defense, but the Canucks are one of the few teams with a strong depth at the top 4 defense position. Ohlund, though not the game breaker Jovo can be, is also a #1D on most teams in this league. Sopel, if he continues to develop as he has this year is a poor man's version of Jovo. He'll never likely reach the skill level Jovo is at even now, but combined with Ohlund & the growth of both Allen & Salo, Jovo, in opinion could be moved. Add to all that the Canucks also have two very fine offensive type defensemen playing for the Moose in the form of Mojzis & Koltsov. The Canucks have more than enough defensemen in their system who can make up for the scoring that Jovo gives & though Jovo is also known for his speed & physical play, Burke has built a defense that now has Jovo the smallest of all the Canuck defensemen & most are almost as fast as he is.

That said, Jovo would only be moved in order to strenthen our forward lines to an equal skill level as what we would be losing in Jovo. Darth suggested trading with St Louis, but that would be a tough team to trade with for Vancouver, as would Detroit or Colorado. Washington would be fine, but Lang, as you say, is not just himself worth a Jovo even though their salaries are basically the same. I also don't know how long Lang's contract is for & based on his age, that too may pose a problem.

On another thread, a Thornton & Boynton for Jovo & Morrison trade was suggested. That I'd go for if Thornton's contract was settled prior to the trade & his salary remainded in the $5 or $6 mil per year range for the following 2 or 3 years. Both teams would replace a 1st line centre & a #1 defenseman with the same so on the surface it would seem a pretty sideways trade, but Vancouver would shore up their top six while Boston would shore up their defensive core, area's of weakness on both teams while both teams could draw from their reserves to help lighten the loss of a superstar on their forward line or defense.

On the Canuck forum, I suggested Jovo for this season's first overall draft pick, but that would mean whoever had the pick, shich could be Washington, would take on Jovo's 3 year contract with no salary dump of their own. Lang wouldn't be in my top ten returns I would hope for if Jovo was traded, but if Washington's 1st round pick this year came along with Lang, I could see it. Vancouver would have to send their first round pick back to Washington to even the trade out, but such a trade would allow Washington to get a dominant #1D to stablize & build their D around without having to take on any more salary, something they just can't afford to do.

TB could also be a possible trading partner in my opinion with a trade revolving around Lecavalier & something or maybe even Richards & something. I can't see too many western teams though willing to help Vancouver obtain secondary scoring. Unlike the Av's & their fromidable forward lines, even without Jovo, the Canucks will still have a premier defense.


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01-04-2004, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Using that logic, how about Jovocop to St. Louis deal, with the principal return being Demitra VCR gests a high level forward, St. Louis gets an elite defensemen. Then, when Macinnis retires, they have some protection in case Pronger leaves as a UFA.
The value is certainly there. It's become very apparent, however, that the Blues depleted their reserves of homegrown forward talent to acquire Weight and Tkachuk. Demitra is a godsend under those circumstances, and I'm not sure that St. Louis has the forward depth to survive the loss of Demitra. Can Petr Cajanek get it done at scoring-line center? I think that is debatable. They've already sent down Eric Boguniecki, though Eric Nickulas has stuck.

An interesting exercise. Quenneville would probably not at all mind icing a team that emulated the NJ approach, but I'm not sure that the Blues have the quality role players beyond Mellanby, Drake, Mayers, and now Danton to stock the forward lines the way that Lamoriello did while merging a core of NJ-drafted forwards coupled with Langenbrunner, Friesen, Marshall, Nieuwendyk acquired through trades.

I think, in the end, that is the kind of shift that the Blues would have to undertake in the summer. Mid-season and I don't know that they could adjust in time for the playoffs. Parallels with the Sykora for Tverdovsky-Friesen deal can be made.

Regardless, it's probably moot. The Canucks are probably unable to absorb the $7 million Demitra earns, after the Bertuzzi contract, as stated elsewhere on the thread. Not unless Naslund makes good on his desire to return to Sweden permanently in the off-season.

I still think that the Canucks would be making a mistake if they were to trade Jovanovski. I don't see sufficient depth on defense at all. What is his contract and looming UFA status situation?

 
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01-04-2004, 10:06 PM
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trade jovo?

Are you completly on crack. Why would the Canucks trade there number one defencemen a guy who is a legitimate norris candidate for prospects. Get your head out of your butt buddy.






UOTE=Hi-wayman]On the Canucks Board, I suggested that the Canucks trade Jovanovski. Both Sopel & Allen are continuing to rapidly improve & develop. If they continue to do so, I could see Jovocop being tradable later this season, say at the trade deadline or even in the off season just before the junior draft.

Keeping in mind that the Brian Burke will not take on more salary than what he is giving up & that the Canucks are a young, well stocked team so would not go for a quantity for quality trade, what one player or prospect would your team trade for Jovanovski? Also keep in mind that Jovo just signed a new 3 year contract at $4.5, $4.75 & $5.25 mil & is still the cheapest & youngest defenseman out of whom I would consider are the top five #1D's currently in the league.[/QUOTE]

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01-04-2004, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by captain jovo
Are you completly on crack. Why would the Canucks trade there number one defencemen a guy who is a legitimate norris candidate for prospects. Get your head out of your butt buddy.
Wow. He's talking hypothetically here for one, and for two, anyone can come or go for the right deal. Even Gretzky was traded. Only one who needs to clear their anal region of a noggin is yourself.

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01-04-2004, 10:40 PM
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And why again would a team wich will reach it's peak in the next two or three years trade away their stud D Man (along with Ohlund of course)?

The Nucks aren't that far off from winning the whole thing, and I think you'll find it hard to find an equalreplacement for Jovo at that price.

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01-05-2004, 05:09 AM
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They've already sent down Eric Boguniecki...
Boguniecki was sent down for a conditioning stint. He played one game for Worcester and was recalled and now played his first two games of the season, scoring in one of them.

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01-05-2004, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
On the Canucks Board, I suggested that the Canucks trade Jovanovski. Both Sopel & Allen are continuing to rapidly improve & develop. If they continue to do so, I could see Jovocop being tradable later this season, say at the trade deadline or even in the off season just before the junior draft.

Keeping in mind that the Brian Burke will not take on more salary than what he is giving up & that the Canucks are a young, well stocked team so would not go for a quantity for quality trade, what one player or prospect would your team trade for Jovanovski? Also keep in mind that Jovo just signed a new 3 year contract at $4.5, $4.75 & $5.25 mil & is still the cheapest & youngest defenseman out of whom I would consider are the top five #1D's currently in the league.
Let me see Jovo 3 yrs. 14.5 M or Hatcher 4 yrs. 24.0 M and a bad knee... Wished we ahd something to give up..

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01-05-2004, 05:34 AM
  #21
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It would be fair, but the Stars cannot afford to trade Turco.

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01-05-2004, 07:09 AM
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Jovo isn't going anywhere... he simply won't be dealt!

Burke signed him to a long term deal to keep him as part of this team.. he's also stated many times the importance of keeping this core together - Jovo is a huge part of that core.

and Jovo signed early - without any contract problems - gotta be a player that Burke wants to keep around.

yea our defense is looking solid right now, but I wouldn't want us to remove Jovo from that... same problems happened in the past when we experienced injuries to our key guys (Jovo and Ohlund) - Sopel is great playing in a #3 role - but ask him to step up into a #2 and he isn't the same dman... same goes for Salo - who's good in a supplementary role, but not a lead role... Malik will likely also see a drop in play if not playing with Jovo.

right now everyone is playing in their proper roles and this is a huge reason why our defense has looked solid... take Jovo out of that equation and we'll see a much much different defense overall.

and I wouldn't even want to imagine what our defense would look like if Jovo is dealt and Ohlund goes down to an injury - Malik and Sopel would be our #1 pair??

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01-05-2004, 06:49 PM
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just out of curiosity, does Jovo have a no-trade clause?

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01-05-2004, 09:23 PM
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I dont believe he does. Few players get clause that now.

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01-05-2004, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkey
just out of curiosity, does Jovo have a no-trade clause?
Burke probably woudln't give it to him.

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