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Old
08-15-2007, 05:18 PM
  #51
Inferno
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i havent really read all the posts here, but heres my thinking.

if the other team has a fighter, OR a guy known to run roughshod, i put ORR in hands down. we have too many important guys who dont really stand up for themselves a-la avery/shanny. weve got Jagr, Straka, Gomez, etc who need protecting.

if the other team doesnt suit up that kind of guy, Orr sits in favor of hollweg or dawes or however you want to put it. Orr needs to play to protect his teammates.

with regards to his fighting, he might have the strongest right hand in the league, and equally the weakest left hand for an enforcer. his balance is a bit suspect as well. if he can fix those 2 issues, youve got a top 3 best fighter in the league hands down.

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08-15-2007, 05:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Trankler View Post
This is simply not true, at least according to Fedoruk's first hand account. He knew before faceoff that the Rangers had not dressed Orr and took that as a green light to make the Rangers pay. And they did pay, with Fedoruk's hit on Jagr being the most memorable . . .
It simply is true. I have seen enough of Fedoruk to know that he hits in every game he plays. Hollweg is another example. If he plays he hits, no matter who is on the other bench.

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08-16-2007, 04:32 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
It simply is true. I have seen enough of Fedoruk to know that he hits in every game he plays. Hollweg is another example. If he plays he hits, no matter who is on the other bench.
thats the one reason why i like Hollweg as he serves a purpose. He'll always go out there with energy and hits and causes problems with the other team. He brings a sand paper effect that alot of our guys dont have. I hope he gets a few minutes/game again this year.

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08-16-2007, 07:32 PM
  #54
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Orr wil play many games this year and he is needed as we are in one of the toughest divisions. He will play against all teams in our division and other tough teams like Tampa, Washington.... and he is getting better and he does serve a purpose. He is one of the best fighters and his skills are improving. Without him we will see more games like the one against Philly where Jagr took a missile from Fedoruk. The enforcer role is making a comeback, off the top of my head only Detroit, Montreal and Florida dont have one on the team or ready for callup in the minors.

Also, you cant spell score without the "Orr."

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08-16-2007, 08:56 PM
  #55
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by HenrikO'doyle View Post
Orr wil play many games this year and he is needed as we are in one of the toughest divisions. He will play against all teams in our division and other tough teams like Tampa, Washington.... and he is getting better and he does serve a purpose. He is one of the best fighters and his skills are improving. Without him we will see more games like the one against Philly where Jagr took a missile from Fedoruk. The enforcer role is making a comeback, off the top of my head only Detroit, Montreal and Florida dont have one on the team or ready for callup in the minors.

Also, you cant spell score without the "Orr."

I agree that Orr serves a purpose against teams like the Flyers, Wash (Brashears is one of the few goons that targets non goons), Devils (ditto with Janssen), and maybe a few other teams . But that's about it..He should play30-40 games...A big reason is becasue he is still about the worst skater in the game....As for him being one of the BEST fighters, I'm not so sure I would put him up in the Laraque, McGrattan or even Brashear class (too mention a few), but he is good enough and he does have a lethal punch...As goons/enforcers go, he's fine...

As far as the goons/enforcers making a comebacl, there a few team (and good ones) that don't need or use them---Detroit, Montreal, FLA, San Jose,Col, Edmonton, Van--but also alot of teams that selectively use them 30-50 games..That's the most Orr should be used IMO

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08-16-2007, 11:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
I agree that Orr serves a purpose against teams like the Flyers, Wash (Brashears is one of the few goons that targets non goons), Devils (ditto with Janssen), and maybe a few other teams . But that's about it..He should play30-40 games...A big reason is becasue he is still about the worst skater in the game....As for him being one of the BEST fighters, I'm not so sure I would put him up in the Laraque, McGrattan or even Brashear class (too mention a few), but he is good enough and he does have a lethal punch...As goons/enforcers go, he's fine...

As far as the goons/enforcers making a comebacl, there a few team (and good ones) that don't need or use them---Detroit, Montreal, FLA, San Jose,Col, Edmonton, Van--but also alot of teams that selectively use them 30-50 games..That's the most Orr should be used IMO
Out of the teams that dont use em: Detroit-yes, Montreal-yes, Florida-yes, however San Jose I believe has Norton on callup, Colorado has Scott Parker, Edmonton has Zach Stortini and Vancouver is another yes so that leaves most teams with enforcers. Now granted I also agree Orr shouldnt play every game but I think he willl get at least 30 against teams in our division and then more against other teams that are tough or when we need Orr. Keep in mind with guys like Avery and Hollweg there might be games where they frustrate opponents so much that they could become targets. Thats when Orr can step in and give them some room to continue playing their game.

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08-17-2007, 08:16 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
I agree that Orr serves a purpose against teams like the Flyers, Wash (Brashears is one of the few goons that targets non goons), Devils (ditto with Janssen), and maybe a few other teams . But that's about it..He should play30-40 games...A big reason is becasue he is still about the worst skater in the game....As for him being one of the BEST fighters, I'm not so sure I would put him up in the Laraque, McGrattan or even Brashear class (too mention a few), but he is good enough and he does have a lethal punch...As goons/enforcers go, he's fine...

As far as the goons/enforcers making a comebacl, there a few team (and good ones) that don't need or use them---Detroit, Montreal, FLA, San Jose,Col, Edmonton, Van--but also alot of teams that selectively use them 30-50 games..That's the most Orr should be used IMO
I think he's up there w/McGrattan. They have fought 3 times in the NHL. 2 draws and one win for McGratts. They also fought in the AHL and Orr won that one.

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08-17-2007, 09:27 AM
  #58
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by HenrikO'doyle View Post
Out of the teams that dont use em: Detroit-yes, Montreal-yes, Florida-yes, however San Jose I believe has Norton on callup, Colorado has Scott Parker, Edmonton has Zach Stortini and Vancouver is another yes so that leaves most teams with enforcers. Now granted I also agree Orr shouldnt play every game but I think he willl get at least 30 against teams in our division and then more against other teams that are tough or when we need Orr. Keep in mind with guys like Avery and Hollweg there might be games where they frustrate opponents so much that they could become targets. Thats when Orr can step in and give them some room to continue playing their game.
Scott Parker played 10 games..SJ and Van had no goon, ..and yes, every organization has a good or two they can call up and deploy if the situation arises....ANd some of these goons are just kids that like to fight and really accomplish nothing....

ANyway, I think we only disagree a little on Orr's worht and how much he should play..But, he does serve a purpsoe for the team..


LIONHOUND - The only time I saw McGrattan and Orr fight, McGrattan handled him easlily.....And hell, a guy that loses to John Erskine has too prove himslef a bit more to me (and I don't mean the likes of the toast Fedoruk and the minor league Boulton) to be considered in the group of "one of the best"....He'll get his chance agaisnt the likes of Brashear, Laraque, McGrattan, etc.. this year I'm sure..

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08-17-2007, 09:54 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Orr started off slow last season. He wasn't winning the bouts and he wasn't providing much of anything else. He's came on and did well towards the end of the season. The question is, is he a real deterrent? I think the fact that Shanny fought Brashear may tell a bit. I just seem to remember players still playing against Jagr & Co. quite hard. I remember in the prior season Dom Moore getting into a shoving match in a game against PITT and Orr being out there with him doing nothing, and Moore shouldn't be in a pushing match with Orr out there. I know those are only two examples, but my memory's not what it used to be. He fights, he wins, but Jagr will still have to take a hit. I just don't know if today's game lends itself to having an enforcer.
I don't think that Shanny fighting Brash said anything about Orr, more than it said something about the team in general not being timid.

That fight by Shanny provides a huge boost to the morale of the whole club.

I also get the feeling that Renney has the reigns pulled in a bit tighter on Orr and Hollweg. just a feeling

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Old
08-17-2007, 11:03 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Scott Parker played 10 games..SJ and Van had no goon, ..and yes, every organization has a good or two they can call up and deploy if the situation arises....ANd some of these goons are just kids that like to fight and really accomplish nothing....

ANyway, I think we only disagree a little on Orr's worht and how much he should play..But, he does serve a purpsoe for the team..


LIONHOUND - The only time I saw McGrattan and Orr fight, McGrattan handled him easlily.....And hell, a guy that loses to John Erskine has too prove himslef a bit more to me (and I don't mean the likes of the toast Fedoruk and the minor league Boulton) to be considered in the group of "one of the best"....He'll get his chance agaisnt the likes of Brashear, Laraque, McGrattan, etc.. this year I'm sure..
The McGrattan fight from 05/06 was an easy win for McGrattan. He beat him handily, but the other two fights were totally different. The Erskine fights were all uneventful. They both fell off balance early. Plus Erskine is not a bad fighter by any means. I can see what you are saying about Boulton, but Erskine IMO is a much better fighter as is Andre Roy.

In the past two seasons Orr has beaten some very tough opposition.
Wins
Boulton 2x
Fedoruk
Shelley
Janssens 2x
Roy 2x
Morrison
Godard 2x
Wade Belak
Joe Rullier

Most of the losses he has are to bigger players.
Brashear
McGrattan
Laraque
Belak
Peters

But, what seperates him from the 2nd tier fighters IMO is two things.

1) Orr fights for the win.
2) He has better power than any of the top 3.

Plus not too mention any of the top 10 heavys in the league can beat each other on any given day.

Godard loses twice to Orr. 1 TKO, which resulted in a concussion where he missed a few games, the other he broke his nose.

Godard beats both Brashear, and Boogaard

Brashear beats Orr

Boogaard beats McGrattan by TKO

Orr beats Boogaard 2 times

Boogaard loses to Laraque 4 times

Laraque beats Orr easily

Laraque loses to Shelley

Orr beats shelley, and fractures his nose

Go figure!

If Orr solidify's his spot in the roster this year, which I think he will only against teams that employ enforcers, he wil continue to do some damage. I don't paticularly believe he will beat Laraque or Brash(unless he lands one) both of those guys IMO look to get the opposition off balance and put them down quick. Orr is much different in the way he will stand tooe to toe with any of the aforementioned.

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08-17-2007, 02:02 PM
  #61
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
The McGrattan fight from 05/06 was an easy win for McGrattan. He beat him handily, but the other two fights were totally different. The Erskine fights were all uneventful. They both fell off balance early. Plus Erskine is not a bad fighter by any means. I can see what you are saying about Boulton, but Erskine IMO is a much better fighter as is Andre Roy.

In the past two seasons Orr has beaten some very tough opposition.
Wins
Boulton 2x
Fedoruk
Shelley
Janssens 2x
Roy 2x
Morrison
Godard 2x
Wade Belak
Joe Rullier

Most of the losses he has are to bigger players.
Brashear
McGrattan
Laraque
Belak
Peters

But, what seperates him from the 2nd tier fighters IMO is two things.

1) Orr fights for the win.
2) He has better power than any of the top 3.

Plus not too mention any of the top 10 heavys in the league can beat each other on any given day.

Godard loses twice to Orr. 1 TKO, which resulted in a concussion where he missed a few games, the other he broke his nose.

Godard beats both Brashear, and Boogaard

Brashear beats Orr

Boogaard beats McGrattan by TKO

Orr beats Boogaard 2 times

Boogaard loses to Laraque 4 times

Laraque beats Orr easily

Laraque loses to Shelley

Orr beats shelley, and fractures his nose

Go figure!

If Orr solidify's his spot in the roster this year, which I think he will only against teams that employ enforcers, he wil continue to do some damage. I don't paticularly believe he will beat Laraque or Brash(unless he lands one) both of those guys IMO look to get the opposition off balance and put them down quick. Orr is much different in the way he will stand tooe to toe with any of the aforementioned.
Wow, quite the analysis! ANd did Orr really beat Boogard twice? Was that as a Bruin?

Persoanlly, I think no-talent, pylon goons like Orr aren't worthy of such analysis...Rarely do they do the job of protection (except with punks like Brashear, Janssens and Boulton that target "regualr" players). Most of the the time it's just goon vs goon. Fun stuff, but means very little to me.

Still, all i said was that Orr, though capable, was not one of the best (say, Top 5 or so). Nothing in there and nothing I have seen persuades me differently. But he indeed can, at the least, hang with the rest. As far as goons go, we are fine...

And you also forgot Mitch Fritz beating Orr...

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Old
08-17-2007, 03:40 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleandshoot View Post
Colton Orr earns a spot x10

But only against certain teams. The Flyers, Devils, Pitts etc

Hopefully Renny wont forget the game against Philly last year when he failed to dress Orr. The Rangers got their heads handed to them. Teams will go after Jagr and Henke w/o an enforcer in the lineup and Colton Orr breaks faces.

Orr has a place on this team
agreed.

We need a guy like Orr to protect our best players and score on DiP

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Old
08-17-2007, 04:15 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Wow, quite the analysis! ANd did Orr really beat Boogard twice? Was that as a Bruin?

Persoanlly, I think no-talent, pylon goons like Orr aren't worthy of such analysis...Rarely do they do the job of protection (except with punks like Brashear, Janssens and Boulton that target "regualr" players). Most of the the time it's just goon vs goon. Fun stuff, but means very little to me.

Still, all i said was that Orr, though capable, was not one of the best (say, Top 5 or so). Nothing in there and nothing I have seen persuades me differently. But he indeed can, at the least, hang with the rest. As far as goons go, we are fine...

And you also forgot Mitch Fritz beating Orr...

Thanks Larry. Lot's of fans definately share your view of enforcers, but I definately don't. I still feel there is need for a team to employ an enforcer, and granted it is extremely hard for them to do thier jobs effectivly with the instigator in place. But, the reality of it is, the percentage of players in the league that prefer an enforcer on thier team far outnumbers the ones that don't ... but that's a totally different argument!

Fritz did beat Orr in the AHL. Another example of a much bigger player being able to get the decision on Orr. I'm cetain these two will meet up in training camp. If it is open to the public I will have the footage of it.

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08-17-2007, 07:54 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
i havent really read all the posts here, but heres my thinking.

if the other team has a fighter, OR a guy known to run roughshod, i put ORR in hands down. we have too many important guys who dont really stand up for themselves a-la avery/shanny. weve got Jagr, Straka, Gomez, etc who need protecting.

if the other team doesnt suit up that kind of guy, Orr sits in favor of hollweg or dawes or however you want to put it. Orr needs to play to protect his teammates.
How many teams dont have a fighter though? Everyone in the division does. Everyone in the Northeast has at least 1 heavyweight, possibly 2 (except Montreal). Washington, Atlanta and Tampa do. Most in the West do other than Detroit. I'd like to see Orr-xxx-Hollweg most games.

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08-19-2007, 01:58 AM
  #65
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I thought Orr did pretty well as an enforcer last year. He needs to do better against Brash and LaRock....but those guys are pretty tough and Orr is still very young. The thing that impressed and surprised me with Orr was how well he played in the last 15 games or so. I thought he played well.

One big reason Renney likes him(in addition to his punching skills)is how hard he worked to improve his skating and his overall game.

Unless the wheels really fall off on him, he'll make the team and dress for half the games at least.

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08-19-2007, 09:15 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
if the other team has a fighter, OR a guy known to run roughshod, i put ORR in hands down.
The thing is that Orr prevents absolutely nothing. Dress him or not, the opposing players will still do what they do. Think about it. Does the presence of Boogard prevent Hollweg from hitting anyone? Does Tucker care that Orr is dressed? Think Neil cares whether or not Orr is dressed?

The only way to make the other team think twice about taking a run at Jagr is to play with an "eye for an eye" mentality each and every game. Armstrong takes a run at Jagr? Have Hollweg return the favor on Crosby. Neil comes in high on Straka? Have Avery come in high on Alfredsson or Spezza? Eager hits Gomez or Drury after the whistle? Run Gagne.

That said, Orr played pretty much in every game following the Dolan screaming. I expect him to be dreesed on most nights.

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08-19-2007, 09:22 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HenrikO'doyle View Post
but I think he willl get at least 30 against teams in our division and then more against other teams that are tough or when we need Orr. Keep in mind with guys like Avery and Hollweg there might be games where they frustrate opponents so much that they could become targets. Thats when Orr can step in and give them some room to continue playing their game.
This is what I do not understand. Mind you, I am not commenting on whether or not he should or should not dress, but why do the Rangers "need" him? Can you tell me what Orr prevents? Can you honestly tell me that Orr's mighty prescence prevents the Rangers players from becoming targets?

I keep seeing posts that state that Orr serves a purpose. What purpose? What does he prevent? What is more beneficial to the Rangers. Him fighting McGratton or Hollweg or Avery plastering Heatly into the boards in retaliation? If Orr drops the gloves with McGratton, does anyone actually think that will prevent Neil from plastering Jagr?

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08-19-2007, 09:34 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
The thing is that Orr prevents absolutely nothing. Dress him or not, the opposing players will still do what they do.
Exactly.

At least Hollweg can initiate by forechecking as opposed to having Orr as a responder. Initiating physical contact is far more valuable than having a make believe nuclear deterrent that deters a total of zero players.

If I'm heading into a corner with Hollweg coming I'm more likely to make a mistake than if it is Orr. With Orr, I'm assuming that I can get by him.

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08-19-2007, 10:43 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Exactly.

At least Hollweg can initiate by forechecking as opposed to having Orr as a responder. Initiating physical contact is far more valuable than having a make believe nuclear deterrent that deters a total of zero players.

If I'm heading into a corner with Hollweg coming I'm more likely to make a mistake than if it is Orr. With Orr, I'm assuming that I can get by him.

I agree...

Did somebody really compare Colton Orr to a young Joe Kocur? Kocur for a tough guy had hands around the net and wasn't a liabilty with his skating...If Orr can't beat the TOUGHER goons around the league he serves no purpose...

Did Orr improve last season?
yes

Is Orr going to make the team this year?
yes

Is Orr going to change the outcome of any game he is playing?
probably not..

Colton Orr sucks..

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08-19-2007, 12:22 PM
  #70
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With Ortmeyer gone play him on the fourth line with Betts. After what happened last year with the Flyers you still need an enforcer. Don't see anybody better to fill the fourth right wing spot.

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08-19-2007, 01:01 PM
  #71
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All this talk of Colton Orr sucks, blah blah...

Yeah, obviously, the guy isn't put out on the ice to skate like a Afinigenov, or put points up like a Crosby. In fact, he barely can do either of the two. By not dressing him when you need him for such teams/games, you're killing your own game though.

If Colton Orr isn't playing during the big goon games, Washington, Devils, Flyers...Pens...etc, then chances are your big players who have no fighting capability or even defending ability are going to get rocked, do you want that? No. Not at all, especially if an injury erupts for them.

These people that other teams will target: Obviously, Jagr... Then you have Straka, Gomez, Drury...

People like Cally, Prucha, Shanny, can hold their own...but you still need Orr out there to protect our big players. He serves a purpose, he will make the team, and he's good at what he's made to skate for in the NHL, Enforcer/Fighter. Anything else on observation sheets is blasphemy.

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08-19-2007, 01:17 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Bruno Ranger View Post
All this talk of Colton Orr sucks, blah blah...

Yeah, obviously, the guy isn't put out on the ice to skate like a Afinigenov, or put points up like a Crosby. In fact, he barely can do either of the two. By not dressing him when you need him for such teams/games, you're killing your own game though.

If Colton Orr isn't playing during the big goon games, Washington, Devils, Flyers...Pens...etc, then chances are your big players who have no fighting capability or even defending ability are going to get rocked, do you want that? No. Not at all, especially if an injury erupts for them.

These people that other teams will target: Obviously, Jagr... Then you have Straka, Gomez, Drury...

People like Cally, Prucha, Shanny, can hold their own...but you still need Orr out there to protect our big players. He serves a purpose, he will make the team, and he's good at what he's made to skate for in the NHL, Enforcer/Fighter. Anything else on observation sheets is blasphemy.
Those teams would...wait a second..those teams HAVE targeted the Rangers star players with Orr in the lineup or not...

The Rangers also have guys that can LEVEL other teams star players with huge borderline cheap hits...Avery and Hollweg...That's how you payback a huge hit..Often times the huge hits against the star players aren't coming from goons..not all the time but most of the time...

Orr was dressed when Prucha injured against the Flyers two years ago...(he got his ass kicked by Brasher) did Orr prevent injury to a skilled player?

I'd venture to guess the other teams dressing room will have conversations like "Keep your head up when Avery and Hollweg are on the ice!" I doubt anybody is throwing Orrs name in that sentance because Orr isn't a great hitter..he is too darn slow to do any damage..

This isn't an anti-fighting argument its an anti-sucky player argument..

with all that being said Orr is going to be on the team this year..I think every anti-Orr posters knows that..

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08-19-2007, 07:30 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
This is what I do not understand. Mind you, I am not commenting on whether or not he should or should not dress, but why do the Rangers "need" him? Can you tell me what Orr prevents? Can you honestly tell me that Orr's mighty prescence prevents the Rangers players from becoming targets?

I keep seeing posts that state that Orr serves a purpose. What purpose? What does he prevent? What is more beneficial to the Rangers. Him fighting McGratton or Hollweg or Avery plastering Heatly into the boards in retaliation? If Orr drops the gloves with McGratton, does anyone actually think that will prevent Neil from plastering Jagr?
Remember the 1st game against Phily(Technically the 5th) when Fedoruk ran wild and did whatever he wanted. Remember the rematch? No, Orr wont stop the Tucker's of the world but he will stop the Janssen's and he will fight the Brashear's, I dont want Shanahan to have to fight again. Say what you want an enforcr like Orr does become a deterrent to the other team. They know what orr did to Ovechkin in retaliation and that will slow teams down. WHen Orr played every night Jagr was hit a lot less whereas earlier in the year teams took cheapshots and late runs at him because they knew there would be no retribution.

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08-19-2007, 07:33 PM
  #74
HenrikO'doyle
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Those teams would...wait a second..those teams HAVE targeted the Rangers star players with Orr in the lineup or not...

The Rangers also have guys that can LEVEL other teams star players with huge borderline cheap hits...Avery and Hollweg...That's how you payback a huge hit..Often times the huge hits against the star players aren't coming from goons..not all the time but most of the time...

Orr was dressed when Prucha injured against the Flyers two years ago...(he got his ass kicked by Brasher) did Orr prevent injury to a skilled player?

I'd venture to guess the other teams dressing room will have conversations like "Keep your head up when Avery and Hollweg are on the ice!" I doubt anybody is throwing Orrs name in that sentance because Orr isn't a great hitter..he is too darn slow to do any damage..

This isn't an anti-fighting argument its an anti-sucky player argument..

with all that being said Orr is going to be on the team this year..I think every anti-Orr posters knows that..
Maybe we watched different games but I remember after the suspension the rematch against Washington, they were hitting a lot less. And without Orr a guy like Brashear will go back to elbowing Jagr, beating up Hollweg(we dont want him taking on Orr). prucha's injury was just a bad injury, not a dirty hit it was clean he just had his knee caught. And Janssen is a hell of a lot quieter when orr is on the ice.

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08-19-2007, 07:40 PM
  #75
Son of Steinbrenner
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Originally Posted by HenrikO'doyle View Post
Maybe we watched different games but I remember after the suspension the rematch against Washington, they were hitting a lot less. And without Orr a guy like Brashear will go back to elbowing Jagr, beating up Hollweg(we dont want him taking on Orr). prucha's injury was just a bad injury, not a dirty hit it was clean he just had his knee caught. And Janssen is a hell of a lot quieter when orr is on the ice.
They weren't hitting a lot less because of Orr...

A guy like Brashear will hit Jagr and beat up Hollweg with Orr in the lineup or not..

Pruchas injury was a clean hit but do you think it was clean instead of dirty because Orr was dressed? no, teams will hit dirty if Orr is dressed or not and the retaliation to those clean hard hits/dirty hits isn't going to involve Orr..It's going to involve guys like Avery and Hollweg...

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