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Old
08-20-2007, 02:29 PM
  #101
Fletch
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I don't recall Twist losing fights...

I just remember most fighters not wanting to fight Twist and it seemed as though there was a time that his right hand was one of the most feared right hands out there (he used to wind that up and take a big shot). He was also a monster (muscle-wise). Perhaps we're talking about different parts of his carrer - who knows, maybe he roided-up at some point.

As for the competition - I'm not talking about who he TKOs or KOs. The strongest punch can come from someone that has never KO'd a true heavyweight (in other words, does the hardest punch have to come from a good fighter? You can punch hard and be a bad fighter). Back in Kocur's days, I think there were more heavyweights. The Rangers at one time had both Kocur and Domi. The Wings had Kocur and Probert (OK, I'm limited to that today because my memory just sucks right now). I do recall more fights and more heavyweights. To be the hardest hitting guy then is more impressive than today, to me at least.

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08-20-2007, 02:32 PM
  #102
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Peters beat him and so did Erskine both of which are highly respected fighters. On any given night anyone can beat anyone in the fight game. Orr has broken Andre Roys face and Roy beat Brashear so what does this mean? The kid can go.
Hey, don't argue with me, I've already said he's probably in the top 10 for whatever that is worth...As far as fighting, all these kids can go becasue that is basically all they do....Too me, it's the protection, hitting and skatiing of thse guys that mean more...

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08-20-2007, 02:37 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I just remember most fighters not wanting to fight Twist and it seemed as though there was a time that his right hand was one of the most feared right hands out there (he used to wind that up and take a big shot). He was also a monster (muscle-wise). Perhaps we're talking about different parts of his carrer - who knows, maybe he roided-up at some point.

As for the competition - I'm not talking about who he TKOs or KOs. The strongest punch can come from someone that has never KO'd a true heavyweight (in other words, does the hardest punch have to come from a good fighter? You can punch hard and be a bad fighter). Back in Kocur's days, I think there were more heavyweights. The Rangers at one time had both Kocur and Domi. The Wings had Kocur and Probert (OK, I'm limited to that today because my memory just sucks right now). I do recall more fights and more heavyweights. To be the hardest hitting guy then is more impressive than today, to me at least.
Yep, Eric Cairns always had a pretty damn good punch also......And back in those days, where I though Kocur and Twist had the harest punch although Probert might have been the best, the fightin played a bigger role...

One mini-guy I remember having a prettu good punch was Stan Jonathan....As for Rangers, Steve Vickers had one, whenever he chose to fight, which wasn;t often

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08-20-2007, 03:52 PM
  #104
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Fotiu had a amazing punch and threw it to hurt people. Vickers lol he did go hard when he went but not often. Mark Tinordi was very tuff and God did Denis Vial throw to hurt people. But pound for pound Domi was a animal

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08-20-2007, 04:57 PM
  #105
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orr serves a purpose in the lineup for a couple reasons. if a heavyweight enforcer on another team drops the gloves, the only guys that might match up are strudwick (if he plays) and shanny (no body wants to see shanny fight). some years ago sandy mccarthy refused to drop the gloves and it seemed like barnaby was fighting every tough guy on the other team by himself. i see the same thing happening with avery and hollweg. hollweg is not a good fighter, i don't want to see him against any heavyweight. simply put he would lose... bad. avery is a good fighter against guys his size. with orr in the lineup we won't have to see avery and hollweg go through the same situation barnaby went through.

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08-20-2007, 05:17 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
orr serves a purpose in the lineup for a couple reasons. if a heavyweight enforcer on another team drops the gloves, the only guys that might match up are strudwick (if he plays) and shanny (no body wants to see shanny fight). some years ago sandy mccarthy refused to drop the gloves and it seemed like barnaby was fighting every tough guy on the other team by himself. i see the same thing happening with avery and hollweg. hollweg is not a good fighter, i don't want to see him against any heavyweight. simply put he would lose... bad. avery is a good fighter against guys his size. with orr in the lineup we won't have to see avery and hollweg go through the same situation barnaby went through.
oh good lord, i remember being duped into thinking mccarthy was going to be pretty good for us when the rangers got him...

that reason alone is enough for orr to have the role he had last season.

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08-20-2007, 05:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
orr serves a purpose in the lineup for a couple reasons. if a heavyweight enforcer on another team drops the gloves, the only guys that might match up are strudwick (if he plays) and shanny (no body wants to see shanny fight). some years ago sandy mccarthy refused to drop the gloves and it seemed like barnaby was fighting every tough guy on the other team by himself. i see the same thing happening with avery and hollweg. hollweg is not a good fighter, i don't want to see him against any heavyweight. simply put he would lose... bad. avery is a good fighter against guys his size. with orr in the lineup we won't have to see avery and hollweg go through the same situation barnaby went through.
That is not a purpose, it is jsut something that makes fans feel better. From what I can tell, theses days, top goons just fight goons (unless you are Brashear or Cam Janssen).. That's who they drop the gloves with....Laraque ain't gonna drop the gloves with Hollweg UNLESS Hollweg has obliterated Crosby...That's another issue entirely..

As for Barnaby, he was a mugging nutjob and he sought out the fights...Half the times the true goons would just ignore his antics..

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08-20-2007, 05:45 PM
  #108
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oh good lord, i remember being duped into thinking mccarthy was going to be pretty good for us when the rangers got him...
McCarthy was actually very good his first two years with the Rags. 11 goals and 21 points his first year, and 10 goals and 23 points his second, along with 12 and 14 fights. His card those two years included McKenzie (3), Oliwa (2), Fedoruk (2), McAllister, Laraque, Cairns, Brashear, Grimson, Shelley, Hordichuk, and Roy. Tough to argue he was more than productive in the first two years. No question he nosedived after that, but he was definitely more than solid in NY for a while.

As for Orr, I will never understand how people don't want him in the lineup. You don't want Shanny having to fight top guys, and Strudwick will likely see limited action (and also isn't a heavy), so considering that the majority of teams will have an enforcer, how anyone wouldn't want Orr playing in those games is beyond me. I will never understand how fans of a team don't mind the fact that their team might get completely bullied, and not be able to do a single thing about it.

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08-20-2007, 05:51 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Peters beat him, Erskine beat him..Hell, Mitch Frits beat him..So let's not make him out to be more then he is...I have no use for him (and most goons) most of the time but agree that he is probably in the Top 10 of fighters of the NHL and should be in thee when we play goons/teams that target regular players (FLyers, Brashear, Janssens)...

LIONHOUND - By hardest hitting, you mean punching, right? Becasue he sure doesn't throw many checks..Which would make him much more valuable if he could..But back to his punching power, gotta agree it is up there withthe best.Hell, all these big guys--McGrattan,Boogard,etc---all pack major whollup

Yes I do mean hardest punching. He's not the best at throwing the body, but he does get one or two per game. In that respect Hollweg is lightyears ahead of him. I personally think Hollweg is one of the top ten in the league as far as throwing the body. Let's see that statment get blown out of proportion also.

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08-20-2007, 05:56 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
top 10 heavyweight...where would he rank on that list?
also

How many GREAT FIGHTERS are in the league right now?

lets be serious here if the Rangers had Peters, Laraque, or Brashear the same people that love Orr would be telling us he sucks...Orr is marginal 4th line player that can't skate..His gumption isn't a reason to keep him around...If the Rangers could upgrade the enforcer postion they would..

1) Laraque
2) Brashear
3) Boogaard
4) McGrattan
5) Peters
6) Orr
7) Godard
8) Belak
9) Shelley
10) Parker

That's what I think the top ten looks like now, and where Orr fits in. Losses to the top 2, 2 draws and a loss to number 4, and 1 loss to number 5. 2 wins over number 7. 1 win and 1 loss to number 8 and a win over number 9. He ver fought Parker.

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08-20-2007, 05:59 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Fotiu had a amazing punch and threw it to hurt people. Vickers lol he did go hard when he went but not often. Mark Tinordi was very tuff and God did Denis Vial throw to hurt people. But pound for pound Domi was a animal

Fotiu is one of my all-time favs, but for a guy with such good fighting skills why didn't he ever KO or TKO anyone? Closest he came was the big bomb he hit Behn Wilson with.

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08-20-2007, 06:00 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Yep, Eric Cairns always had a pretty damn good punch also......And back in those days, where I though Kocur and Twist had the harest punch although Probert might have been the best, the fightin played a bigger role...

One mini-guy I remember having a prettu good punch was Stan Jonathan....As for Rangers, Steve Vickers had one, whenever he chose to fight, which wasn;t often
Totally agree on Johnathan. That guy definately cracks my all-time top 20 enforcers.

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08-20-2007, 06:03 PM
  #113
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McCarthy had a tough last season...

with the Rangers - he was hurt at some point and wasn't the same. And very often he didn't need to fight - he had a reputation that preceded him. I do recall the Rangers getting run-over less with McCarthy than in prior seasons, although prior seasons were pretty bad. His production was an added bonus. He was also the team's leading hitter among forwards, I believe. But again, his last season was really tough (even though he scored more than your average fourth liner, averaging somewhere between third and fourth line minutes).

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08-20-2007, 06:05 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
1) Laraque
2) Brashear
3) Boogaard
4) McGrattan
5) Peters
6) Orr
7) Godard
8) Belak
9) Shelley
10) Parker

That's what I think the top ten looks like now, and where Orr fits in. Losses to the top 2, 2 draws and a loss to number 4, and 1 loss to number 5. 2 wins over number 7. 1 win and 1 loss to number 8 and a win over number 9. He ver fought Parker.
The one problem with Orr is he gets manhandled by Laraque and Brashear. And I realize most guys don't fare terribly well against those two, but everyone else on your list can at least hold their own with those guys. And when you consider the fact that Orr will be playing 12 games against those two, it is perhaps a concern. That being said, it's not like there are a whole lot of options out there in terms of FA enforcers who can play a shift, so you accompany that with the fact that Orr has been one of the most destructive fighters ever (on a per game basis), and IMO he's more than earned his spot in this lineup.

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08-20-2007, 06:14 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
with the Rangers - he was hurt at some point and wasn't the same. And very often he didn't need to fight - he had a reputation that preceded him. I do recall the Rangers getting run-over less with McCarthy than in prior seasons, although prior seasons were pretty bad. His production was an added bonus. He was also the team's leading hitter among forwards, I believe. But again, his last season was really tough (even though he scored more than your average fourth liner, averaging somewhere between third and fourth line minutes).
Are we talking about the same McCarthy? The guy that did his job on his own terms? How many times did guys like Dvo and Nedved get smacked around with zero retaliation during the McCarthy years? He fared OK in his first season, but after that he was totally downhill. He was a shodow of himself in his Calgary days. In the early to mid 90's McCarthy IMO was a top three heavy.

I do think he is the best player out of all of them though. That includes Kocur. He threw the body well, and he had decent hands around the net for an enforcer.

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08-20-2007, 07:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by HenrikO'doyle View Post
Remember the rematch?
Yes. You know what I remember? That Rangers were getting run, whether or not Orr was on the ice.
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No, Orr wont stop the Tucker's of the world but he will stop the Janssen's and he will fight the Brashear's, I dont want Shanahan to have to fight again.
Why would he not stop Tucker, but miraculously stop Janssen? Every game that I have seen Cam Jan, he takes runs at Rangers. Why would he stop? Why would Brashear? First of all, Brash has manhandled every single Ranger that he has every fought, save for Purinton. And that includes several times with Orr. How on Earth is Orr going to stop Brash from running anyone?
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Say what you want an enforcr like Orr does become a deterrent to the other team.
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They know what orr did to Ovechkin in retaliation and that will slow teams down.
I think that other team's fear Hollweg's hitting much more than a once-in-a blue moon cheap shot from Orr.
You have yet to really show how. You seem to think that he will not prevent all-around players like Tucker Neil, but will solely stop the so-called enforcers? Right after he knocked out Fedouruk (who was an utter moron for dropping the gloves when there is a metal plate inserted in his cheek), I seem to recall Eager taking several runs at Ragners. Then Eager fought Orr. Then Eager proceeded to pick up right where he left off.

So again, HOW is Orr a deterent?
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WHen Orr played every night Jagr was hit a lot less
I really do not recall Jagr being hit "a lot" less.

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08-20-2007, 07:33 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
That is not a purpose, it is jsut something that makes fans feel better. From what I can tell, theses days, top goons just fight goons (unless you are Brashear or Cam Janssen).. That's who they drop the gloves with....Laraque ain't gonna drop the gloves with Hollweg UNLESS Hollweg has obliterated Crosby...That's another issue entirely..

As for Barnaby, he was a mugging nutjob and he sought out the fights...Half the times the true goons would just ignore his antics..
i agree barnaby was a nut job, but he didn't start or instigate every fight he was in when mccarthy wouldn't drop the gloves. a lot of it was sticking up for teamates with a big hit or something that turned into a fight.

as for making the fans feel better, i guess a guy like tie domi should never of had a career if he was just there to make fans feel better. they help the team. in a game against philly last year fedoruk was running wild throwing hits all over the place one was a huge hit on jagr. so while you may think goons only drop the gloves with goons that doesn't mean they throw the cleanest hits against our top players. if the consequence of throwing a huge hit on jagr is fighting ryan hollweg, jagr would be pretty banged up this year.

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08-20-2007, 10:41 PM
  #118
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Kurtenbach was the best fighter to wear a Rangers jersey in the last 40 years.

Vickers might be 2nd. After he knocked a couple guys out cold no one went near him.

Kocur's great fighting went on well before he was a Ranger. His knuckles were ground beef by the time he got here.

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08-20-2007, 10:56 PM
  #119
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I think he's only useful in select situations. Play him vs. Isles, Pitt (Laraque), Philly (Rival) and other select games. He doesn't really add much else. Hollweg is a far superior player IMO in terms of hockey game.

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08-21-2007, 12:32 AM
  #120
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Kurtenbach was the best fighter to wear a Rangers jersey in the last 40 years.

Vickers might be 2nd. After he knocked a couple guys out cold no one went near him.

Kocur's great fighting went on well before he was a Ranger. His knuckles were ground beef by the time he got here.
Kurtenbach and Reggie Flemming....

And I wrote above about how good a puncher Vickers was, but I wish that was the case....The problem was Vickers just never got mad enough....Greshner could aslo fight when riled...Like many Rangers of those days, the fuse was too long...

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08-21-2007, 03:32 AM
  #121
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So again, HOW is Orr a deterent?
Here's a clip from a Flyers-Rags game in which Orr was scratched. Fedoruk ran several guys and had this huge hit on your star.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtwk-GceRd0

And we all know what happened the next time these teams met and Orr was back in the lineup. And the fact that Orr hasn't fared well against someone like Brashear isn't the entire story. The point is he can at least hold guys accountable for their actions. Without him the thought doesn't even enter the opponent's mind because they know they have no one to answer to.

I have a question for not only you, but every Rags fan who would prefer to not have Orr in the lineup. Watch the clip I posted (it's only 12 seconds). Doesn't seeing your best player get absolutely steamrolled piss you off?? Wouldn't you love nothing more than for a guy on the Rangers to not only challenge Fedoruk there, but soundly beat him in a fight?? Not only does Orr provide that near instant retribution, but it could be argued that guys wouldn't be running around like that in the first place for the simple fact that Orr is in the lineup. How anyone would prefer to see some little, soft, pansy euro in the lineup who couldn't fight himself out of a wet paper bag (nor can even begin to understand the idea of standing up for your teammates) is mind-boggling to me.

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08-21-2007, 04:35 AM
  #122
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BGD I agree with everything you've said. Maybe you can get that through to the heads of some of these Orr haters..

I'll tell you something else, Avery may not even play the way he played last year, sure, he loves new york, but we don't know everything about this guy...and the arbitration process he was being a baby..and I think that tells you something, also, coaches aren't going to put up with Avery's nonsense anymore. At least, it will be reduced frantically.

What I mean by that is our opponents are going to steer clear of Avery as much as they can (chewing out their players if they take dumb penalties on him) making Avery a lot less of a threat then his last stretch...and also on top of that Arbitration issue....well, we'll see what happens with Avery's gritty play this year. Only time will tell.

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08-21-2007, 05:52 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
I have a question for not only you, but every Rags fan who would prefer to not have Orr in the lineup. Watch the clip I posted (it's only 12 seconds). Doesn't seeing your best player get absolutely steamrolled piss you off?? Wouldn't you love nothing more than for a guy on the Rangers to not only challenge Fedoruk there, but soundly beat him in a fight??
No, but thanks for asking. I'd prefer a reaction of running their star player. You want to talk deterrents? That's how you stop getting your best players run but the point is that folks like you prefer it the way it presently is. You'd rather see your star get run and see the retaliation than not see your star get run.

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Not only does Orr provide that near instant retribution, but it could be argued that guys wouldn't be running around like that in the first place for the simple fact that Orr is in the lineup. How anyone would prefer to see some little, soft, pansy euro in the lineup who couldn't fight himself out of a wet paper bag (nor can even begin to understand the idea of standing up for your teammates) is mind-boggling to me.
Count me as someone who would rather see a small, offensively talented "pansy Euro" ahead of a Colton Orr any day. You'd prefer to have Orr ahead of Datsyuk or players like him. I love watching a good fight but what drew me to hockey was its intrinsic beauty and and the mind boggling coordination needed to play the game. You're better off sticking to UFC and beating up bum videos.

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08-21-2007, 01:32 PM
  #124
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And we all know what happened the next time these teams met and Orr was back in the lineup.
Yes, the Flyers still hit the Rangers. The Fedoruk knockout did not seem to faze Eager at all.
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And the fact that Orr hasn't fared well against someone like Brashear isn't the entire story. The point is he can at least hold guys accountable for their actions. Without him the thought doesn't even enter the opponent's mind because they know they have no one to answer to.
I have a very simply question for you. Do you think that if Orr is in the lineup, then Darcy Tucker or Chris Neill will suddenly stop hitting Rangers? Very simple question. Yes or no, please.
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I have a question for not only you, but every Rags fan who would prefer to not have Orr in the lineup. Watch the clip I posted (it's only 12 seconds). Doesn't seeing your best player get absolutely steamrolled piss you off??
Sure, but chances are revenge will be served better in a different way.
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Wouldn't you love nothing more than for a guy on the Rangers to not only challenge Fedoruk there, but soundly beat him in a fight??
You are confusing your issues here. That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Off course I loved seeing Orr knock out Fedoruk. After the game, I posted that that particular punch has been 30 years in coming.

However, what does that have to do with the issue at hand? The debate is not whether or not I like seeing Orr fight, but rather just how is he a "deterent"?
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Not only does Orr provide that near instant retribution, but it could be argued that guys wouldn't be running around like that in the first place for the simple fact that Orr is in the lineup.
Then how is it that Prucha was injured on a hit by a Flyer when Orr was in the lineup? Why was Brashear running around and hitting Jagr when Orr was in the lineup?

Orr fighting Mcgratton is not retribution. Hollweg hammering Heatly into the boards is.
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How anyone would prefer to see some little, soft, pansy euro in the lineup who couldn't fight himself out of a wet paper bag (nor can even begin to understand the idea of standing up for your teammates) is mind-boggling to me.
And just where pray tell do you see anyone discussing something like that in this thread?

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08-21-2007, 01:39 PM
  #125
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TB...

to add, in the game in which Orr knocked out Fedoruk, he also fought Eager in the first period. Eager proceeded to connect with four hits on the Rangers, and I remember him going around hitting everything in sight (four sounded low). In the next game, Eager again registered four hits, with Orr in the lineup, and the Rangers significantly outhit the Rangers. Doesn't seem as though Eager's game was altered much as a result of Orr knocking out Fedoruk, and I'd ask, where is the deterrent?

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