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Retroactive NHL Award Winners (MOD: and actual PCHA, WCHL/WHL & WHA All-Star Teams)

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08-13-2007, 04:04 PM
  #1
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Retroactive NHL Award Winners (MOD: and actual PCHA, WCHL/WHL & WHA All-Star Teams)

I've seen "retroactive awards" being mentioned in the All-Time Draft and was wondering where this list can be found.


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08-13-2007, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
I've seen "retroactive awards" being mentioned in the All-Time Draft and was wondering where this list can be found.
The only official ones are the Conn Smythes, which were compiled by a bunch of experts.

This list can be found here:

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

Obviously they have their flaws, but it's interesting stuff nonetheless.

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08-13-2007, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
The only official ones are the Conn Smythes, which were compiled by a bunch of experts.

This list can be found here:

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

Obviously they have their flaws, but it's interesting stuff nonetheless.
Ahh, thanks. Much appreciated.

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08-13-2007, 06:40 PM
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There are also the statistical awards like the richard trophy.

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08-13-2007, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
I've seen "retroactive awards" being mentioned in the All-Time Draft and was wondering where this list can be found.
There is a book called 'Ultimate Hockey' that has retroactive award winners for the Hart, Vezina, Norris, Selke and Art Ross from the year 1887 up until the awards were officially introduced. I highly recomend purchasing this book or at least going out to the library and reading it.
Also try contacting pnep (a poster on these boards) because I think I remember him having a Microsoft Excel file that has retroactive winners for every trophy.

If you'd like to know some of the winners from some specific years i'd be happy to post them. However keep in mind that Ultimate Hockey isn't the hockey history gospel.


Last edited by Evil Speaker: 08-13-2007 at 07:52 PM.
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08-13-2007, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Speaker View Post
There is a book called 'Ultimate Hockey' that has retroactive award winners for the Hart, Vezina, Norris, Selke and Art Ross from the year 1887 up until the awards were officially introduced. I highly recomend purchasing this book or at least going out to the library and reading it.
Also try contacting pnep (a poster on these boards) because I think I remember him having a Microsoft Excel file that has retroactive winners for every trophy.

If you'd like to know some of the winners from some specific years i'd be happy to post them. However keep in mind that Ultimate Hockey isn't the hockey history gospel.
Thanks again. I don't have any specific year in mind, I simply thought it'd be an interesting reference and give a bit more perspective to early eras where determining dominant players for each year can be difficult.

The lists may not be definitive, but they'll help.

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08-14-2007, 06:55 AM
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Not to change the subject but without looking at that book I would project a guy like Keon and Provost to have a few Selke trophies between them. Shore would have owned the Norris, and after him Kelly would have gotten more than one before 1954

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08-14-2007, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Not to change the subject but without looking at that book I would project a guy like Keon and Provost to have a few Selke trophies between them. Shore would have owned the Norris, and after him Kelly would have gotten more than one before 1954
Keon awarded 3 Selke's, Provost 4. Shore gets 8 Norris Trophies and Kelly 2 before 1954.

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08-14-2007, 03:22 PM
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I'm also interested a lot in seeing those projected awards.

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08-14-2007, 03:38 PM
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I have Total Hockey and it is deffinately worth buying for more reasons than this. You could probably get it cheap used as well.

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08-20-2007, 02:09 PM
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I'm curious about the Selke also. More specifically for Bob Gainey. Since the trophy was brought in for him and other players like him. I'm wondering how many he would have been awarded before they actually gave it to him.

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08-20-2007, 02:47 PM
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I've note retroactive Selke winners from that site long ago but don't know the source. I'm pretty sure those are the winner from Total Hockey.

1917-18 Louis Berlinquette
1918-19 Frank Nighbor
1919-20 Frank Nighbor
1920-21 Louis Berlinquette
1921-22 Frank Nighbor
1922-23 Frank Nighbor
1923-24 Harry Broadbent
1924-25 Louis Berlinquette
1925-26 Frank Nighbor
1926-27 Charles McVeigh
1927-28 Frank Nighbor
1928-29 Frank Boucher
1929-30 Frank Finnigan
1930-31 Albert Lepine
1931-32 Albert Lepine
1932-33 Frank Finnigan
1933-34 Albert Lepine
1934-35 Reginald Smith
1935-36 Frank Finnigan
1936-37 Murray Murdoch
1937-38 Lawrence Northcott
1938-39 Mush Marsh
1939-40 Nick Metz
1940-41 Neil Colville
1941-42 Nick Metz
1942-43 Bob Davidson
1943-44 Bob Davidson
1944-45 Nick Metz
1945-46 Nick Metz
1946-47 Nick Metz
1947-48 Joe Klukay
1948-49 Tony Leswick
1949-50 Joe Klukay
1950-51 Joe Klukay
1951-52 Joe Klukay
1952-53 Marty Pavelich
1953-54 Marty Pavelich
1954-55 Marty Pavelich
1955-56 Marty Pavelich
1956-57 Marty Pavelich
1957-58 Claude Provost
1958-59 Don Marshall
1959-60 Don Marshall
1960-61 George Armstrong
1961-62 Dave Keon
1962-63 Dave Keon
1963-64 Claude Provost
1964-65 Claude Provost
1965-66 Claude Provost
1966-67 Dave Keon
1967-68 Stan Mikita
1968-69 Ed Westfall
1969-70 Ed Westfall
1970-71 Stan Mikita
1971-72 Ed Westfall
1972-73 Ron Ellis
1973-74 Bobby Clarke
1974-75 Bobby Clarke
1975-76 Don Marcotte
1976-77 Bob Gainey
1977-78 Bob Gainey
1978-79 Bob Gainey
1979-80 Bob Gainey
1980-81 Bob Gainey
1981-82 Steve Kasper
1982-83 Bobby Clarke
1983-84 Doug Jarvis
1984-85 Craig Ramsey
1985-86 Troy Murray
1986-87 Dave Poulin
1987-88 Guy Carbonneau
1988-89 Guy Carbonneau
1989-90 Rick Meagher
1990-91 Dirk Graham
1991-92 Guy Carbonneau
1992-93 Doug Gilmour
1993-94 Sergei Fedorov
1994-95 Ron Francis
1995-96 Sergei Fedorov
1996-97 Mike Peca
1997-98 Jere Lethinen
1998-99 Jere Lethinen
1999-00 Steve Yzerman
2000-01 John Madden
2001-02 Mike Peca
2002-03 Jere Lethinen
2003-04 Kris Draper
2005-06 Rod Brind'Amour
2006-07 Rod Brind'Amour
2007-08 Jaromir Jagr

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08-20-2007, 03:01 PM
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Norris

1917-18 Harry Cameron
1918-19 Harry Cameron
1919-20 Sprague Cleghorn
1920-21 Eddie Gerard
1921-22 George Boucher
1922-23 George Boucher
1923-24 George Boucher
1924-25 Sprague Cleghorn
1925-26 George Boucher
1926-27 Herb Gardiner
1927-28 Eddie Shore
1928-29 Eddie Shore
1929-30 King Clancy
1930-31 Eddie Shore
1931-32 Eddie Shore
1932-33 Eddie Shore
1933-34 King Clancy
1934-35 Eddie Shore
1935-36 Eddie Shore
1936-37 Albert Siebert
1937-38 Eddie Shore
1938-39 Aubbrey Clapper
1939-40 Ebbie Goodfellow
1940-41 Aubbrey Clapper
1941-42 Tom Anderson
1942-43 Earl Seibert
1943-44 Earl Seibert
1944-45 William Hollett
1945-46 Émile Bouchard
1946-47 Ken Reardon
1947-48 Jack Stewart
1948-49 Jack Stewart
1949-50 Ken Reardon
1950-51 Red Kelly
1951-52 Red Kelly
1952-53 Doug Harvey
1953-54 Red Kelly
1954-55 Doug Harvey
1955-56 Doug Harvey
1956-57 Doug Harvey
1957-58 Doug Harvey
1958-59 Tom Johnson
1959-60 Doug Harvey
1960-61 Doug Harvey
1961-62 Doug Harvey
1962-63 Pierre Pilote
1963-64 Pierre Pilote
1964-65 Pierre Pilote
1965-66 Jacques Laperrièrre
1966-67 Harry Howell
1967-68 Bobby Orr
1968-69 Bobby Orr
1969-70 Bobby Orr
1970-71 Bobby Orr
1971-72 Bobby Orr
1972-73 Bobby Orr
1973-74 Bobby Orr
1974-75 Bobby Orr
1975-76 Denis Potvin
1976-77 Larry Robinson
1977-78 Denis Potvin
1978-79 Denis Potvin
1979-80 Larry Robinson
1980-81 Randy Carlyle
1981-82 Doug Wilson
1982-83 Rod Langway
1983-84 Rod Langway
1984-85 Paul Coffey
1985-86 Paul Coffey
1986-87 Raymond Bourque
1987-88 Raymond Bourque
1988-89 Chris Chelios
1989-90 Raymond Bourque
1990-91 Raymond Bourque
1991-92 Brian Leetch
1992-93 Chris Chelios
1993-94 Raymond Bourque
1994-95 Paul Coffey
1995-96 Chris Chelios
1996-97 Brian Leetch
1997-98 Rob Blake
1998-99 Al MacInnis
1999-00 Chris Pronger
2000-01 Nicklas Lidstrom
2001-02 Nicklas Lidstrom
2002-03 Nicklas Lidstrom
2003-04 Scott Niedermayer
2005-06 Nicklas Lidstrom
2006-07 Nicklas Lidstrom
2007-08 Sheldon Souray

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08-20-2007, 03:51 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
I've note retroactive Selke winners from that site long ago but don't know the source. I'm pretty sure those are the winner from Total Hockey.
Really interesting lists, thanks for posting them.

The problem with the Selke trophy is that its standards have changed over time. When it was first officially awarded, it seemed to go to purely defensive players. Then, in the nineties, it went to great two-way forwards (as opposed to the the best purely defensive forward) (i.e. Gilmour, Fedorov, Francis, Yzerman, Brind'Amour).

With a few exceptions (Clarke, Mikita, possibly Keon), most of the retroactive Selke winners seem to be the best purely defensive forwards. So, in that sense, they might not be directly comparable to the Selke winners in some years.

It's hard to get recognized as a top defensive forward if you're not on a strong team. I wonder if Pavelich, Provost, Klukay, etc., would get remembered if they played for the 40s Rangers or 50s Bruins.

The Norris list is also quite interesting. I think I need to read a bit more about George Boucher. I know that Pnep has him ranked very high, but the four potential Norrises probably have a lot to do with that.

Then again, there are two seasons where one could make a strong argument for Sprague Cleghorn, rather than Boucher. In 1924 and 1926, Cleghorn was runner-up for the Hart trophy, but Boucher gets the Norris. Boucher did have a considerable edge in scoring in 1924, but was just 1 pt. ahead of Cleghorn in 1926. Cleghorn was universally regarded as one of the toughest and best defensive players of his era. I'm tempted to consider Cleghorn the rightful winner of 1926 Norris.

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08-20-2007, 04:39 PM
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Retroactive NHA Award Winners

Norris:
1910 - Cyclone Taylor
1911 - Cyclone Taylor
1912 - Art Ross
1913 - Sprague Cleghorn
1914 - Harry Cameron
1915 - Sprague Cleghorn
1916 - Harry Cameron
1917 - Sprague Cleghorn

Selke:
1910 - Moose Johnson
1911 - Moose Johnson (Moved to PCHA and won 5 retroactive Norris')
1912 - Jack Marks
1913 - Jack Marks
1914 - Jack Walker
1915 - Rusty Crawford
1916 - Frank Nighbor
1917 - Rusty Crawford

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08-20-2007, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
The Norris list is also quite interesting. I think I need to read a bit more about George Boucher. I know that Pnep has him ranked very high, but the four potential Norrises probably have a lot to do with that.

Then again, there are two seasons where one could make a strong argument for Sprague Cleghorn, rather than Boucher. In 1924 and 1926, Cleghorn was runner-up for the Hart trophy, but Boucher gets the Norris. Boucher did have a considerable edge in scoring in 1924, but was just 1 pt. ahead of Cleghorn in 1926. Cleghorn was universally regarded as one of the toughest and best defensive players of his era. I'm tempted to consider Cleghorn the rightful winner of 1926 Norris.
You could argue that George Boucher was the best defensive defenseman of his era as well. Same with Eddie Gerard. Ultimate hockey has Eddie Gerard as the best defensive defenseman of the 1920's

Quote:
Ultimate Hockey
While Cleghorn was adept with the puck, he was possibly better without it. So harsh was his treatment of opposing forwards that many were scared to hang around the net. Despite what has been said about his unpredictablility, his defensive ability can be compared quite favorably to contemporaries such as Eddie Gerard, Ching Johnson, or Buck Boucher.
My take on it-
In Cleghorn's era intimidation went a long way because you could get away with being so abusive. This along with his skating ability is what enabled him to be an effective player in his own end. Ching Johnson used intimidation and his clutch and grab technique. Eddie Gerard and Buck Boucher were more ahead of their time as defensive players. They were smarter players that used solid positioning, stickchecking and a competative attitude to take care of their own end. This is especially true for Boucher as he wasn't a quick skater.

Here's more on Buck Boucher

Quote:
Ultimate Hockey
Although the Ottawa Senators would boast such talents as Eddie Gerard, King Clancy, Sprague Cleghorn and Lionel Hitchman, the man they called Buck was the linchpin. Although he wasn't a particularly fast skater. His puck control was other-worldly. According to reports, opposing players could hear the curious tap-tap of his stick on the ice as he navigated his way through oppsing teams. In all, he figured in four Stanley Cups in Ottawa and during his prime was considered one of the leagues elite talents. It's often said that King Clancy was the first of the modern rushers, but Buck Boucher, a stick handling wizard, started the proverbial puck rolling.
Although I'm not a big fan of players that play without a conscience like Cleghorn, I probably would rather have Cleghorn on my team than Boucher. The reason is Cleghorn's uncanny skating ability, size adavantage and the intimidation factor. I beleive he learned how to skate from some guy named Cyclone Taylor. George Boucher may have been called a better offensive player by Ultimate Hockey but their offensive stats compared to each others are quite even. Both players finished top 5 in scoring by defencemen six times from 1918 on.
Boucher - 1st,1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th. Cleghorn - 1st,2nd,2nd,3rd,3rd,4th. Boucher averaged 16.8 points per 30 games. Cleghorn averaged 16.0 points per 30 games.
Overall I say advantage Cleghorn.


Last edited by Evil Speaker: 08-20-2007 at 05:37 PM.
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08-20-2007, 07:10 PM
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Great stuff from Ultimate Hockey, guys. Thanks for posting.

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08-20-2007, 08:11 PM
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Not quite the same thing, but at the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926.

The nominees were:

G: Clint Benedict, Harry Holmes, Georges Vezina, and Hugh Lehman

He selected Clint Benedict.

D: Harry Cameron, Sprague Cleghorn, Eddie Gerard, and Ernie Johnson

He selected Sprague Cleghorn and Ernie Johnson.

Rover: Newsy Lalonde, Mickey MacKay, and Fred Taylor

He selected Newsy Lalonde.

F: Russell Bowie, Harry Broadbent, Jack Darragh, Cy Denneny, Frank Foyston, Harry Hyland, Joe Malone, Frank Nighbor, Didier Pitre, Gordon Roberts, and Ernie Russell

He selected Russell Bowie, Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor.

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08-20-2007, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Really interesting lists, thanks for posting them.

The problem with the Selke trophy is that its standards have changed over time. When it was first officially awarded, it seemed to go to purely defensive players. Then, in the nineties, it went to great two-way forwards (as opposed to the the best purely defensive forward) (i.e. Gilmour, Fedorov, Francis, Yzerman, Brind'Amour).

With a few exceptions (Clarke, Mikita, possibly Keon), most of the retroactive Selke winners seem to be the best purely defensive forwards. So, in that sense, they might not be directly comparable to the Selke winners in some years.

It's hard to get recognized as a top defensive forward if you're not on a strong team. I wonder if Pavelich, Provost, Klukay, etc., would get remembered if they played for the 40s Rangers or 50s Bruins.

The Norris list is also quite interesting. I think I need to read a bit more about George Boucher. I know that Pnep has him ranked very high, but the four potential Norrises probably have a lot to do with that.

Then again, there are two seasons where one could make a strong argument for Sprague Cleghorn, rather than Boucher. In 1924 and 1926, Cleghorn was runner-up for the Hart trophy, but Boucher gets the Norris. Boucher did have a considerable edge in scoring in 1924, but was just 1 pt. ahead of Cleghorn in 1926. Cleghorn was universally regarded as one of the toughest and best defensive players of his era. I'm tempted to consider Cleghorn the rightful winner of 1926 Norris.
I'd give it to him both years if he was hart runner-up. From everything I heard about this guy, he was as tough and dirty as Shore, just not as talented. I just don't see how you can be the hart runner-up and not be the norris winner.

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08-21-2007, 01:42 AM
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2007-08 Jaromir Jagr
You know the future?

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08-21-2007, 12:30 PM
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I AM from the future.

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08-21-2007, 05:40 PM
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You know the future?
It's not so much the prediction, rather the selection that confounds me.

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08-21-2007, 07:01 PM
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I'll help with the lists for anyone who's interested. I'll stick to the NHL/NHA and the PCHA but if anyone wants the other leagues let me know:

Hart

NHL/NHA
1910 Cyclone Taylor
1911 M. Walsh
1912 E. Ronan
1913 Joe Malone
1914 Newsy Lalonde
1915 Tommy Smith
1916 Newsy Lalonde
1917 Frank Nighbor
1918 Joe Malone
1919 Newsy Lalonde
1920 Joe Malone
1921 Babe Dye
1922 Frank Nighbor
1923 Clint Benedict

PCHA
1912 Newsy Lalonde
1913 Ernie Johnson
1914 Tom Dunderdale
1915 Mickey MacKay
1916 Ernie Johnson
1917 Gordie Roberts
1918 Cyclone Taylor
1919 Cyclone Taylor
1920 Frank Foyston
1921 Frank Foyston
1922 Hap Holmes
1923 Mickey MacKay

Vezina

NHL/NHA
1910 Riley Hern
1911 Georges Vezina
1912 Georges Vezina
1913 Paddy Mmoran
1914 Hap Holmes/Georges Vezina
1915 Clint Benedict
1916 Clint Benedict
1917 Clint Benedict
1918 Georges Vezina
1919 Clint Benedict
1920 Clint Benedict
1921 Clint Benedict
1922 Clint Benedict
1923 Clint Benedict
1924 Georges Vezina
1925 Georges Vezina
1926 Alex Connell

PCHA
1912 Hugh Lehman
1913 Bert Lindsay
1914 Bert Lindsay
1915 Hugh Lehman
1916 T. Murray
1917 Hap Holmes
1918 Hugh Lehman
1919 Hap Holmes
1920 Hap Holmes
1921 Hap Holmes
1922 Hap Holmes
1923 N. Fowler

I didn't fill in the full names of the players who didn't come to me immediately, so I'm not sure who they specifically refer to.

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08-23-2007, 08:06 PM
  #24
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nighbor and lalonde seem to have been even more underrated than i thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'd give it to him both years if he was hart runner-up. From everything I heard about this guy, he was as tough and dirty as Shore, just not as talented. I just don't see how you can be the hart runner-up and not be the norris winner.
in the same list babe pratt didn't get the norris, but he did win the hart.

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08-23-2007, 11:41 PM
  #25
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nighbor and lalonde seem to have been even more underrated than i thought.



in the same list babe pratt didn't get the norris, but he did win the hart.
...ridiculous.

and yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Nighbour and Lalonde.

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