HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Boucher

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-04-2004, 05:44 PM
  #1
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Boucher

I'm a huge Brian Boucher fan, and I would still rather have him on the team over Hackett of Esche.

Esche -
GAA) 1.98
SAVE%) .917
GAMES) 16
SHOTS) 375
SAVES) 344

Boucher -
GAA) 2.13
SAVE%) .930
GAMES) 10
SHOTS) 300
SAVES) 279

The goals allowed average isn't too shabby for Esche or Boucher, but the striking stat that I always look at is Save %. You could have a GAA of under two, but have a horrible save percentage say if you were to face very few shots in games like Mr. Esche... not to say his Save% is horrible, because it's good... but it has a lot to do with team defense. Oh well, I still think the Flyers gave up on Boucher too easily for who? Oh yeah, that guy who plays for the Kings now, Chokepanic.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-04-2004, 06:32 PM
  #2
ZombieMatt
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
Don't sell Esche short yet.

He's having a very good season so far and he's proving that he is not going to be the backup goaltender in Philly, but rather he should be 1A or 1B.

ZombieMatt is offline  
Old
01-04-2004, 06:37 PM
  #3
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
I don't want a 1A or 1B I want a #1 and a #2 that is made to look like a #5 because the #1 is so damn good. Confused?

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-04-2004, 07:20 PM
  #4
Gags1288
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,355
vCash: 500
You have to take Boosh's numbers with a grain of salt. He has only played 10 games and his numbers are highly skewed by his 3 game streak. If you want an accurate assessment of Boosh's place since the deal, look at his numbers from last year. Boosh is as streaky as Cechmanek and wouldn't help this team because his lows last incredibly long.

Gags1288 is offline  
Old
01-04-2004, 08:22 PM
  #5
stanley
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,588
vCash: 500
His GAA and SV% before his three-game tear were 2.67 and .869, respectively.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...g?statsId=1921

I think he can still be a very good NHL goaltender, but you must not forget that they received Handzus in return and spent as much payroll on Esche AND Handzus as they would have on Boucher alone. It's not an insignificant point.

stanley is offline  
Old
01-04-2004, 09:12 PM
  #6
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gags1288
You have to take Boosh's numbers with a grain of salt. He has only played 10 games and his numbers are highly skewed by his 3 game streak. If you want an accurate assessment of Boosh's place since the deal, look at his numbers from last year. Boosh is as streaky as Cechmanek and wouldn't help this team because his lows last incredibly long.
It's a big matter of how the team played around him. After the 2000 playoff run, whenever he would play, the team averaged something like 1.5 goals pergame and when cechmanek played they averaged around 3 a game. Not many goalies will win games when the team can't score more than 1 to 2 goals a game. I hope this will be a nice turnaround for the kid, I really liked him in Philly, and I'd like to see him get back to his days in philly.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-04-2004, 09:23 PM
  #7
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley
His GAA and SV% before his three-game tear were 2.67 and .869, respectively.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...g?statsId=1921

I think he can still be a very good NHL goaltender, but you must not forget that they received Handzus in return and spent as much payroll on Esche AND Handzus as they would have on Boucher alone. It's not an insignificant point.
The Flyers have a history of overpaying players don't they? :-p

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 04:19 PM
  #8
PhoPhan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,254
vCash: 500
I would say that at this point, it looks like the Flyers got the better end of the deal. Not because of Esche (who I think is very overrated merely because he doesn't suck as bad as Hackett) but because of Handzus. If Boucher can continue to play well this season and at least be a half of a starting tandem (and not a backup) he will finally make it seem like this deal was good for both sides.

PhoPhan is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 05:22 PM
  #9
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan
I would say that at this point, it looks like the Flyers got the better end of the deal. Not because of Esche (who I think is very overrated merely because he doesn't suck as bad as Hackett) but because of Handzus. If Boucher can continue to play well this season and at least be a half of a starting tandem (and not a backup) he will finally make it seem like this deal was good for both sides.
I hear you there, Handzus was an amazing pick-up, but I still stand by the fact that Clarke is an idiot... and not because of anything else than the fact that he expects the teams he constructs to win championships without a first class net-minder... Matin Brodeur, Domik Hasek etc etc... granted, the devils have only won 3 times in 9 years... but you know what... the Flyers have won 0 times since the 70s... so I'd rather be a Devils fan *shivers* than a Flyers fan... unfortunately, I'm stuck every year watching the orange and black get the hopes up of locals, only to be disappointed when their C rate goalies flounder in the playoffs... I've said it years ago, and will say it again... Goaltenders are the #1 piece to building a winning hockey club.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 05:33 PM
  #10
FlyersGuy69
Registered User
 
FlyersGuy69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: purgatory
Country: United States
Posts: 8,840
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyersGuy69
look, I like Boucher too and I wish that he would've been a #1 goalie here but he's not. like what one of the posters above stated, his numbers are scewd because of him only being in like 10 games and having 3 SO in his last 3 games. Boucher has had poor numbers since he left and I don't ever see him becoming a legit #1 goalie. did he have the potential? absolutely, look at the 2000 run in the playoffs but it was just a flash in the pan, not reality.

FlyersGuy69 is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 05:50 PM
  #11
The Flash
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Korea (South of Cour
Country: South Korea
Posts: 1,160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
I'm a huge Brian Boucher fan, and I would still rather have him on the team over Hackett of Esche.

Esche -
GAA) 1.98
SAVE%) .917
GAMES) 16
SHOTS) 375
SAVES) 344

Boucher -
GAA) 2.13
SAVE%) .930
GAMES) 10
SHOTS) 300
SAVES) 279

The goals allowed average isn't too shabby for Esche or Boucher, but the striking stat that I always look at is Save %. You could have a GAA of under two, but have a horrible save percentage say if you were to face very few shots in games like Mr. Esche... not to say his Save% is horrible, because it's good... but it has a lot to do with team defense. Oh well, I still think the Flyers gave up on Boucher too easily for who? Oh yeah, that guy who plays for the Kings now, Chokepanic.
I liked Boucher alot, but he was a poor fit for the Flyers while they had Cechmanek so he had to get dealt. OVerall as a starter, Boosh was pretty good, however he was to up and down to really survive here in Philly. And while, I don't like Hackeshe in the nets for the Flyers, I would have to say that's still an upgrade from Boucher. If I remember correctly, Boosh has had only 1 really good year in the NHL. The rest of the time he has been played mediocre/poorly.

The Flash is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 06:02 PM
  #12
stanley
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
The Flyers have a history of overpaying players don't they? :-p
You seem hell-bent on making wild claims without any sort of tangible evidence or use of reason, so whatever.

stanley is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 07:35 PM
  #13
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash
I liked Boucher alot, but he was a poor fit for the Flyers while they had Cechmanek so he had to get dealt. OVerall as a starter, Boosh was pretty good, however he was to up and down to really survive here in Philly. And while, I don't like Hackeshe in the nets for the Flyers, I would have to say that's still an upgrade from Boucher. If I remember correctly, Boosh has had only 1 really good year in the NHL. The rest of the time he has been played mediocre/poorly.
I think a big problem with Boucher was the fact that when he played his best (the 99-2000 season) it was him and Beezer. He seemed to thrive having an aging veteran backing him up, knowing his job was secure and he didn't have to battle for the #1 spot... then Cechmanek comes in the next season & all of a sudden there's competition for the #1. If anything, it was choking under pressure.. not pressure of the "big game" but the pressure, or insecurity, of having the #1 spot. With what Boucher had done the season before, it seemed wrong to bring a guy in who would challenge for the top spot... I don't see the Devils bringing in a guy to challenge Brodeur each year. (and I am in NO WAY saying Boucher is Brodeur) I guess the real point to this is, if the Flyers ever want to have a franchise goalie the way New Jersey has, they need to stop giving up on young talent so easily.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 07:46 PM
  #14
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley
You seem hell-bent on making wild claims without any sort of tangible evidence or use of reason, so whatever.
and who exactly died and gave you position of judge, jury and decider of what reason is? or is it everyones' opinions who don't go along with your opinions are just wrong?

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-07-2004, 05:52 AM
  #15
stanley
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
and who exactly died and gave you position of judge, jury and decider of what reason is? or is it everyones' opinions who don't go along with your opinions are just wrong?
I haven't given an opinion, simply made a statement. Read more, please, where I addressed you directly: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=676712

stanley is offline  
Old
01-07-2004, 06:06 PM
  #16
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/recap;_y...010723&prov=ap

"Brian Boucher can call it a bit of luck, but the hockey world knows better. On Wednesday, Boucher became the first goalie in almost 55 years to record four straight shutouts, stopping every shot as the Coyotes defeated the Capitals 3-0. Boucher next has a chance to add to the run on Friday against the Wild."

Dare I say, "Yummy."

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-07-2004, 06:59 PM
  #17
FlyersGuy69
Registered User
 
FlyersGuy69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: purgatory
Country: United States
Posts: 8,840
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyersGuy69
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/recap;_y...010723&prov=ap

"Brian Boucher can call it a bit of luck, but the hockey world knows better. On Wednesday, Boucher became the first goalie in almost 55 years to record four straight shutouts, stopping every shot as the Coyotes defeated the Capitals 3-0. Boucher next has a chance to add to the run on Friday against the Wild."

Dare I say, "Yummy."
4 straight SO, that is very impressive. good for him.

but I will still be interested to see what his numbers look like at the end of the season.

FlyersGuy69 is offline  
Old
01-07-2004, 07:28 PM
  #18
Winston Wolf
Registered User
 
Winston Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Oahu, HI
Posts: 7,502
vCash: 500
Good for Brian!

But after his little streak ends he'll go on a 15 game winless streak, which is why I would still rather have Esche.

Winston Wolf is offline  
Old
01-07-2004, 07:38 PM
  #19
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Good for Brian!

But after his little streak ends he'll go on a 15 game winless streak, which is why I would still rather have Esche.
Possibly... kinda like our boys in orange and black ruled the NHL, and now have only won 6 games in the last 18, and will (as always) choke in the playoffs. But hey, he'll yet again make his mark in the NHL history books.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-07-2004, 07:40 PM
  #20
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerGuy69
4 straight SO, that is very impressive. good for him.

but I will still be interested to see what his numbers look like at the end of the season.
It's Phoenix, what do you expect? He faces a ton of shots every night. I was hoping he'd end up with a decent team because I personally love the guy, great character.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-08-2004, 07:14 AM
  #21
Toonces
The beer kitty
 
Toonces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: Ireland
Posts: 3,678
vCash: 500

Toonces is offline  
Old
01-08-2004, 08:34 AM
  #22
VaFlyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
The goals allowed average isn't too shabby for Esche or Boucher, but the striking stat that I always look at is Save %. You could have a GAA of under two, but have a horrible save percentage say if you were to face very few shots in games like Mr. Esche... not to say his Save% is horrible, because it's good... but it has a lot to do with team defense.
First, I want to say congrats to Boucher on his great accomplishment. I too was a big fan and was sad that he was the player traded at the time, although I understand it from a business and hockey perspective.

Let me make this point though. The 2 stats cannot be looked at independently. They have to coexist. If they do not, you end up evaluating players purely on one number or another and not as he is playing as a whole. If you face 100 shots in 1 game and only give up 3 goals, your save % .970 is going to be awesome but your GAA is 3.00 which is only average. But would anyone argue that you having saved 97 shots in one game wasn't spectacular? On the other hand if you face only 4 shots for a .750 save % and give up 1 goal for a 1.00 GAA does that mean you played badly? NO. It may depend on what the shot was. It may not have been stoppable. Maybe the other team pulled its goalie and already had a 2 man advantage leaving Mario or Gretzky standing alone in front with no one guarding them. Maybe the 1 shot was a penalty shot. The point is you can't go by numbers alone to evaluate players, especially goalies. If you watch Boucher right now, he must see the puck as a beach ball, that he can't help but stop, but if you watched him earlier in the year, you would think the net was the entire width of the ice because he could barely stop anything. I am not saying I wouldn't bring Boucher back for the right price, just that Esche has played really well for us and right now I am happy with him as a goalie.

VaFlyer is offline  
Old
01-08-2004, 09:03 AM
  #23
capn89*
 
capn89*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaFlyer
First, I want to say congrats to Boucher on his great accomplishment. I too was a big fan and was sad that he was the player traded at the time, although I understand it from a business and hockey perspective.

Let me make this point though. The 2 stats cannot be looked at independently. They have to coexist. If they do not, you end up evaluating players purely on one number or another and not as he is playing as a whole. If you face 100 shots in 1 game and only give up 3 goals, your save % .970 is going to be awesome but your GAA is 3.00 which is only average. But would anyone argue that you having saved 97 shots in one game wasn't spectacular? On the other hand if you face only 4 shots for a .750 save % and give up 1 goal for a 1.00 GAA does that mean you played badly? NO. It may depend on what the shot was. It may not have been stoppable. Maybe the other team pulled its goalie and already had a 2 man advantage leaving Mario or Gretzky standing alone in front with no one guarding them. Maybe the 1 shot was a penalty shot. The point is you can't go by numbers alone to evaluate players, especially goalies. If you watch Boucher right now, he must see the puck as a beach ball, that he can't help but stop, but if you watched him earlier in the year, you would think the net was the entire width of the ice because he could barely stop anything. I am not saying I wouldn't bring Boucher back for the right price, just that Esche has played really well for us and right now I am happy with him as a goalie.
I totally agree with looking at both statistics, I was just pointing out that I read more into save% than anything... but you brought up a good point... I actually saw bouchers stats before his streak, and is GAA wasn't impressive, but his save% was still better than Sean Burke's. What that tells me is he faces a ton of shots in Phoenix. I think his save% before the tear was around .910, which if you have a .900 or better you're doing something right. But you're correct, all the statistics together make for a better assessment... but I guess the best assessment you can make is actually seeing the guy. When he was still in philly, after the 2000 run, he was still playing good hockey, but the team wouldn't score more than 1 goal for him while he was in net, and whenever cechmanek played, for whatever reason, they would score 3-4 goals.

capn89* is offline  
Old
01-09-2004, 06:33 AM
  #24
JCD
Registered User
 
JCD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country:
Posts: 14,434
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
I think a big problem with Boucher was the fact that when he played his best (the 99-2000 season) it was him and Beezer. He seemed to thrive having an aging veteran backing him up, knowing his job was secure and he didn't have to battle for the #1 spot... then Cechmanek comes in the next season & all of a sudden there's competition for the #1. If anything, it was choking under pressure.. not pressure of the "big game" but the pressure, or insecurity, of having the #1 spot. With what Boucher had done the season before, it seemed wrong to bring a guy in who would challenge for the top spot... I don't see the Devils bringing in a guy to challenge Brodeur each year. (and I am in NO WAY saying Boucher is Brodeur) I guess the real point to this is, if the Flyers ever want to have a franchise goalie the way New Jersey has, they need to stop giving up on young talent so easily.
That isn't true at all.

Boosh stole the starting job from Beezer when he went on a hot streak to close the season. Kinda like the hot streak he is having now. What seperates back-ups from starters is that starters string together an entire season while the back-ups can only manage that level in spurts. Boucher has never had a season where he played at a high level all year. If this 4-game streak could be just another spurt in what has become an inconsistent career.

Boucher was given a secure hold on the starting job. After his rookie run, Boucher gon into a contract dispute for more money. He got it. Flyers moved out Beezer and gave Boucher the starting job on a silver platter. Cechmanek was a late-round after though brought in to back-up Boucher and nothing more. Boucher did have to look behind him and worry about his starting job, but that was because he had to dig those pucks out of the net from all the goals he was giving up. I think he had a month stretch where he didn't have a single game of less than 3 goals. Despite stinking so badly, Ramsey stuck with him. Cechmanek played his way out of the minors and dominated over Boucher, but it wasn't until Ramsey was fired that Barber cut the cord with Boucher and let Cechamnek save our season. Boucher lost the starting job on his own accord. He flat-out sucked.

Even the next season, Boucher was given TWO chances to take over the job again. Cechmanek again started slow, but Boucher didn't capitalize and Cechmanek again grossly outplayed him to push him aside. Mid-season, Cechmanek got hurt. Boucher had a golden opportunity to come in and prove that he is 'the man'. He again failed.

Boucher was given ample opportunity to start here. He just wasn't up to the task. Even this run in Phoenix has to be taken with a grain of salt as it represents 1/3 his action for the season. Boucher could very well just be a back-up who runs hot-and-cold that cannot be counted on for a full season.

JCD is offline  
Old
01-09-2004, 06:47 AM
  #25
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
Even the next season, Boucher was given TWO chances to take over the job again. Cechmanek again started slow, but Boucher didn't capitalize and Cechmanek again grossly outplayed him to push him aside. Mid-season, Cechmanek got hurt. Boucher had a golden opportunity to come in and prove that he is 'the man'. He again failed.

Boucher was given ample opportunity to start here. He just wasn't up to the task. Even this run in Phoenix has to be taken with a grain of salt as it represents 1/3 his action for the season. Boucher could very well just be a back-up who runs hot-and-cold that cannot be counted on for a full season.
IIRC, Boucher was playing very very well at the beginning of that season, but then was hurt for about two weeks or so, and then when he came back he couldn't regain his form.

Dr Love is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:24 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.