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Old
08-20-2007, 12:31 PM
  #76
alexstream
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Mabus, I really like you factual recap... but I needed to add some between the lines.
There are some opinions in my thing, but there is also a lot of facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
[*]Over the next week or so, Gainey goes gangbusters trying to sign Briere, then Smyth, there are rumours he's doing everything he can to bring a marque player into the team. In the interum he makes zero offers to Sourray, there is absolutely no communication between the two. Sourray is beggining to feel alienated {unwanted}.
EVERY TEAM did just that. Souray commanded "elite" money... but if he is "elite", he is the last on the elite list. IMO, he doesn't qualify as elite, he's more of a "great asset". I wouldn't build my team around him is what I mean.
So he felt like a NOT 7th or 8th option to the habs (highly exaggerated by Souray!), but as the 4th or 5th option.
Remember that RIGHTFULLY, habs and Gainey's priority was to GET A CENTER (or Ryan Smyth )

Now if Souray thinks that he was the priority in Edmonton, he's fooling himself... Why do you think they waited until the 12th to make him an offer??!
Maybe because they were shopping elsewhere and they failed on some accounts just like the Habs.
IMO, Souray was EVERYTEAM's 4th or 5th option, just like the Habs...

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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
[*]Gainey makes a second offer {after a good week or so}. It's a "take it or leave it" offer. Sourray at this point is already getting offers in the 5.5 and 6 mill range from other teams who are tripping all over themselves to sign him. At this point he feels like he's very very low on the teams list of priorities, that he is a 7th or 8th option. He feels undervalued as a player, by the GM.
After failing on Briere and Smyth (and not having a real chance on Gomez, etc), Gainey KNEW HE HAD MONEY to keep Sheldon.
What does he do?
He GIVES Sheldon the money on JULY 2nd (not after a week or so like mabus says).
Sheldon says thanks but no thanks... So Gainey goes with what is actually the REAL 7th or 8th option (and Harmlik and NOT Souray should feel neglected and 2nd order option, etc) and gives Souray's contract to Hamrlik (not a coincidence, they just switched the names at the top, I'm pretty sure about that)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
[*]Gainey signs Hamrlik and closes the door on any further negotiations with Sourray.
err, Gainey HAS TO sign Hamrlik and doesn't have the money anymore to continue to negotiate with Souray. Because Souray rejected the offer, Gainey had to find a replacement before there were none left anymore on the market.

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08-20-2007, 12:34 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
I had no problems with Sheldon walking away and going elsewhwere for money/family reasons. But the commentary in this article and in the Francois Gagnon the day after he signed in Edmonton reek of bitterness at how the marketplace shunned him, which forced him to take the best offer from the least desirable market.

And now he is lashing out at the Habs when he should be lashing out at his agent and their FA strategy. Wow, what a man you are Sheldon. All this after how the organization supported you through your injuries and when your wife accused you to be a wife beater. The Habs did a lot for this guy and this is how he talks of them.

F Souray. To make matters worse, we now have Oiler fans telling us that we are bitter he didnt sign with us and how we shouldnt be because he signed with his chidhood team. I dont know what's dumber, Souray or Oiler fans who actually believe that stuff.
Good summary...

I'd also like to add:

Yes, the "no contract negotiation during the season" is not a policy I like.
However, there is more than enough distraction in the season to avoid having the negotiations being held at the same time.
Imagine the following: we're having a successful season, all is well, we signed 2-3 guys on November and December, we're now in February, we try once again to re-sign Souray. And he's still playing hardball... making statements to the press and all.
How do the teammates take it?
e.g. Souray says that he doesn't want to re-sign at that amount and that amount is higher than Koivu...
How does Koivu look at Souray after that?
Does Koivu deserve more than Souray???
ETC...
I think that having negotiations over the summer is a very good thing for the team spirit... or at least is NOT a bad thing as it could be during the season (read the Ryan Smyth event!)

That said, Souray said things and thought other things. He felt neglected and I'm not in his shorts, but I might say that yes, he wasn't the TOP priority... but at the same time, if he had really wanted to remain here. He would have understood that When we're talking Briere or Smyth... it doesn't mean anything against him. Him thinking that is proving that his EGO is taking a lot of space. It means that he thinks that he's "more important" than Smyth or Briere... and he might be the lone sorry soul to think that in the World. Even his mom doesn't think that.

I don't blame anyone in there, but I really do think that Souray's comments and behaviour were all lead by his (big) ego being (wrongfully!) hurt. Had he been a more modest person, he wouldn't have been affected by the Habs going after Ryan Smyth...
Indeed, he might have been a good factor to ATTRACT Smyth to Montreal:
Hey Ryan, I spoke with Bob Gainey and we have an agreement in place, If you accept their 6M offer, they have 5M left for me yadayada, so we could play together and BUILD something great in Montreal. I know you like to play in Canada and MTL is really the place to be...

Did Souray do that?
I don't blame him for not doing it... that's not his role. BUt at the same time, Don't pity him. If you think Gainey is guilty of something, think twice and factor in Souray's Ego and Souray's REAL willingness to remain here.

As a side note, and for the sake of comparison, Go look at th Chris Phillips' contract.
Yes, Phillips, the guy EVERY TEAM would take over Sheldon Souray...
4 years @ 3.5M per
Soon after that, Gainey offered 3 years @ 4-4.5M (numbers weren't disclosed, but I heard a low of 12 and a higher of 13.5)... I think that's more than fair considering Phillips contract.

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08-20-2007, 12:43 PM
  #78
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I always thought the Canadiens would make it a priority to sign me, and I was hoping and thinking that they'd make a real attempt to keep me. But for whatever reason, they decided that wasn't the case until it became way too late.
It's funny because Souray did say Markov was the priority all along.

Basically he goes on to say that the Habs didn't offer him market value. This is even richer:

Quote:
With Markie, Montreal was setting the market. I wasn't saying I thought I was worth this, or thought I was better than I am. It's not like Detroit set the market and Montreal had to follow.
Translation: I'm better than Andrei Markov & deserve more. He turned down the May offer (maybe 12m/3 yrs) and then the day after Markov was signed he was made another, of which he says this:

Quote:
If the (Canadiens' July 2) offer had come in mid-June, absolutely, I would have seriously considered it. But once they started scratching off their checklist and I was sitting at No. 7 or No. 8 on their list, after the time and energy I'd put into the team, I wondered how I could go back with an easy feeling and know that I was 'their guy.'

To put seven years into the organization and leave everything I had on the ice, and then say, 'Wow, I guess this is how highly you've thought of me all along?'
That's the statement of a person who feels scorned, treated unfairly and who has some hurt feelings. Plain and simple. 2 weeks, basically, was all it took for him to sit and stew and say to himself "They're treating me like crap."

He's entitled to his opinion, but clearly he had no intention of staying in Montreal if it meant being paid less then Markov and Saku Koivu.... that's made clear from this article.

Really, it's not surprising that people here are perplexed by these comments. Souray has changed his opinion about the club more times then changing his underwear. If he felt disrespected by the initial offer, he should have been advised that it *is* business and not a personal shot at him. But he took it personally and now he plays for Edmonton.

I always thought he had an ego; this is what it looks like when it's bruised. I'm not angry or disappointed in Souray, pro atheletes behave this way all the time. It's what makes the true character guys like Saku and Yzerman and Selanne so great and appreciated around the league for their attitude towards the game (which includes the fact that it's a business).

For all the apologists out there: How many think that Edmonton overpaid? Or is Souray's contract a perfect reflection of value?

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08-20-2007, 12:48 PM
  #79
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We still never won anything with him anchoring our D. I don't think that's his fault, but I still think he's not a guy that I would build a team around.

I don't think Hamrlik is the answer either though. It's obvious that Gainey wanted Souray before Hamrlik but wasn't willing to increase the money offered.
Yea man it definately wasn't sourarys fault we didn't win anything while we anchored it..look at our forwards for crying out loud..our only impact forward is koivu. As for Hamrlik well hes not even in the same league as Souray and he was grossly overpaid.

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08-20-2007, 12:52 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
My real question is this - would fans here have been happy if Souray stayed and got the same contract that Edmonton gave him, or would they be whining that we overpaid to keep a defensively challenged, injury prone, -28 player?

I think I know the answer.
Maybe more than Hamrlik

However, as much as I like Souray, I must say that for me, it's the other way around.
I've always been a fan of Hamrlik and I think that @ 5.5M he is less of an overpayment than Sheldon.
Hamrlik will get 20 less pts than Souray, but will be the cause of half as many turnovers and goals than Souray.
With the same team, same situation as last season, Souray getting 64 pts and being a -28... I think Hamrlik would have got maybe 40 pts and a +10 (similar to/lesser than Markov)
With these stats, it's a no brainer that you go with the guy who won't be the cause for more goals than he can score.
To me, it's a Yannick Perrault vs Plekanec comparison. LOL
Plek won't score as much as Perrault, but won't get passed as much either.
I can guarantee that Harmlik won't make the "play of the week" vs Spezza for the wrong reason (two times in 3 months) like Sheldon

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08-20-2007, 12:55 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by jordy View Post
Yea man it definately wasn't sourarys fault we didn't win anything while we anchored it..look at our forwards for crying out loud..our only impact forward is koivu. As for Hamrlik well hes not even in the same league as Souray and he was grossly overpaid.
So I guess you're saying that you'd rather have given more money to Souray instead of Hamrlik? Because that's really the only thing worth arguing about at this point

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08-20-2007, 12:59 PM
  #82
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Souray's marital situation, skating speed, lack of creativity and fragility are also factors seemingly not a problem with Hammer.

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08-20-2007, 01:05 PM
  #83
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I don't see any reason to doubt this though. I take Souray at his word.


Either way, it certainly appears that the Habs had other players on their minds which they gave greater priority.


How was the guy immature? Its a business. If somebody lowballs you, you move on. Edmonton stepped up with a five year term, something that we probably weren't prepared to do (and with good reason).

Edmonton was willing to pay better over a longer period of time. Sheldon Souray took the offer because he felt it was competitive and he had some loyalty to his hometown. I know that if I was a FA hockey player and the Habs offered me a competitive wage I would sign there even if it wasn't the BEST offer out there. I'd do it because I grew up in Montreal and would love the chance to play for the team I grew up with. I'm sure its the same with him.

I don't see any reason to fault Souray here. We had a chance to re-sign him and probably could've if we hadn't of lowballed him. Once the other offers came in, we were cooked. Simple as that.

When pride , jealousy, or ego come into play in a contract negotiation under the guise of "respect" I consider it a maturity issue. Perhaps not the word that bests describes the problem, but not far off either. Anyway my point was to clarify the original post which had some serious errors in fact and spun the story in a different direction.

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08-20-2007, 01:35 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
Mabus, I really like you factual recap... but I needed to add some between the lines.
There are some opinions in my thing, but there is also a lot of facts.

EVERY TEAM did just that. Souray commanded "elite" money... but if he is "elite", he is the last on the elite list. IMO, he doesn't qualify as elite, he's more of a "great asset". I wouldn't build my team around him is what I mean.
So he felt like a NOT 7th or 8th option to the habs (highly exaggerated by Souray!), but as the 4th or 5th option.
Remember that RIGHTFULLY, habs and Gainey's priority was to GET A CENTER (or Ryan Smyth )

Now if Souray thinks that he was the priority in Edmonton, he's fooling himself... Why do you think they waited until the 12th to make him an offer??!
Maybe because they were shopping elsewhere and they failed on some accounts just like the Habs.
IMO, Souray was EVERYTEAM's 4th or 5th option, just like the Habs...


After failing on Briere and Smyth (and not having a real chance on Gomez, etc), Gainey KNEW HE HAD MONEY to keep Sheldon.
What does he do?
He GIVES Sheldon the money on JULY 2nd (not after a week or so like mabus says).
Sheldon says thanks but no thanks... So Gainey goes with what is actually the REAL 7th or 8th option (and Harmlik and NOT Souray should feel neglected and 2nd order option, etc) and gives Souray's contract to Hamrlik (not a coincidence, they just switched the names at the top, I'm pretty sure about that)


err, Gainey HAS TO sign Hamrlik and doesn't have the money anymore to continue to negotiate with Souray. Because Souray rejected the offer, Gainey had to find a replacement before there were none left anymore on the market.

I haven't read the thread, I will, but your post seems to be bang on, at least to what I think happened.

I don't see good guy/bad guy here, just guys looking after their interests and doing what they can do to maximize their situations.

Alex, the timing bothers me a bit in terms of Souray/Hamrlik, who did they really want. Who got the biggest/last offer first. We can project a few scenarios here.

One thing about Souray, and I've heard the same words from 3 or 4 diifferent media types. He knows how to play the pr game. He doesn't say anything inflammatory, and knows not to burn bridges. They were pretty well saying that he was all but gone, had decided to get the best contract that was out there, a good plan in that he'd had a year that he might never duplicate. It was hinted that the manic nature of Montreal, every day being a one act play, was fun, but he'd had enough. How do say it's time for a change ? You don't, esp. if you can point to the team's apparent lack of interest.

As far as the famous 'no negotiation during the season rule' , I don't think this is anything other than something for Gainey to say. They negotiate with who they want when they want. With Markov, I believe Meehan and Gainey knew it would get done, so they didn't have to role up their sleeves. Rivet, they decided he wouldn't be kept. Koivu was signed during the year. Souray, well, I believe their interest was mixed, they weren't fully committed. I don't think they had a firm decision by game 60.

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08-20-2007, 01:39 PM
  #85
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Interesting...Hab fans who think they are getting a defensively sound dman in Hamrlik obviously didn't watch his play in the last half of the season. He was terrible.

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08-20-2007, 02:28 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
IMO, he doesn't qualify as elite, he's more of a "great asset". I wouldn't build my team around him is what I mean. So he felt like a NOT 7th or 8th option to the habs (highly exaggerated by Souray!), but as the 4th or 5th option.
Remember that RIGHTFULLY, habs and Gainey's priority was to GET A CENTER (or Ryan Smyth )
I'd agree with you, but then again I guess Sourray doesn't. Not that I blame him, we all value ourselves more than others do, thats a natural thing. He rightly or wrongly felt slighted at being made to sit there without any new offers while Gainey tried to sign anyone but him. My only point here, is that Gainey should have wrapped up his OWN players BEFORE free agency, as in during the regular season. I've said it before and i'll say it again, letting your own players slip between your fingers this way, over such an absurd policy, is sheer incompetance.

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Now if Souray thinks that he was the priority in Edmonton, he's fooling himself... Why do you think they waited until the 12th to make him an offer??! Maybe because they were shopping elsewhere and they failed on some accounts just like the Habs. IMO, Souray was EVERYTEAM's 4th or 5th option, just like the Habs...
You're certainly right here. But at that point Sourray had three options. A) Go with the highest bidder, B) Go with a team whose Gm had pretty much done everything possible to make him feel unwanted or B) Go with a Gm that was, late or not, now doing everything possible to make him feel wanted {up to and including a valuable no trade clause!}. So who do you sign with? I absolutely understand why he chose Edmonton.

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After failing on Briere and Smyth (and not having a real chance on Gomez, etc), Gainey KNEW HE HAD MONEY to keep Sheldon. What does he do? He GIVES Sheldon the money on JULY 2nd (not after a week or so like mabus says). Sheldon says thanks but no thanks... So Gainey goes with what is actually the REAL 7th or 8th option (and Harmlik and NOT Souray should feel neglected and 2nd order option, etc) and gives Souray's contract to Hamrlik (not a coincidence, they just switched the names at the top, I'm pretty sure about that)
At that point Gainey had already completely alienated his own player {not to mention deliberately passed up the chance to sign him up many months earlier}.

Interestingly, this was not the theoretical end of it. Even now, the team has money to sign a player of that caliber if they wish to do so. Yet Gainey went on live television announcing that his negotiations were complete, closing the door on Sourray, I'd say slamming it in his face.

So first he makes a lowball offer. Then he offers him a "take it or leave it" deal. Then he slams the door in his face. Why exactly would Sourray sign a deal when he's being negotiated with in this manner? Why would anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
err, Gainey HAS TO sign Hamrlik and doesn't have the money anymore to continue to negotiate with Souray. Because Souray rejected the offer, Gainey had to find a replacement before there were none left anymore on the market.
This is factually incorrect. The team has cap room left even now. And I won't even bring up how ridiculous Hamrlik is at that kind of salary {at that length}, thats for another thread i suppose.

In any case, I submit to you that Gainey never had any interest in signing Sourray. That he felt he needed to make an offer for appearances, but that he prefered to find a more defensive defenseman. It would certainly explain the way it all played out.

In any case, my beef is not with Sourray, he's free to sign whereever he feels wanted or well paid. And I have no real beef with Gainey. Though I am beggining lately to question some rather flabbergasting decisions he's made, some of them are completely mind numbing {like refusing to negotiate with your own players during the season, that one just leaves me dumbfounded}.

What really upsets me is how the fans berate, swear at, and dissmiss Sourray and players like him for simply signing a contract where he feels most comfortable, at a price they are willing to pay. I simply do not understand this obsession with degrading our own players in this fashion and dismissing years of loyal service so easily. I for one will not cheer against him, nor will i wish him bad with his new team, and i frankly don't understand anyone who does.

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08-20-2007, 02:32 PM
  #87
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Interesting...Hab fans who think they are getting a defensively sound dman in Hamrlik obviously didn't watch his play in the last half of the season. He was terrible.

don't you get it? Hammer hasn't played a game here yet so he is GOD....he will be for a few games, months maybe a season. After that the same people will be complaining and bashing. No diss to Hammer, just saying the way most fans think in this city. (doesn't take them long to turn around and HATE a player they loved not so long ago).

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08-20-2007, 03:12 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by jordy View Post
Man..show some respect...Souray played his heart out for montreal this year and if it wasn't for him Montreal wouldn't have even been close to making it to the finals..you think montreals powerplay is going to be the same without souray..hell no..who's going to play the point? Sheldon also was a big leader for the habs. Who's going to replace that leadership? well lets just hope higgins and komisarek are up for the task..as for all you ppl saying F sheldon and his defensive play..you'll be eating your words when you see how much he meant to us.
Our Power Play was top five when Souray was not pounding pucks in from the point.

Show respect? No, I don't respect anyone who turns down that amount of money for playing a sport that they 'love', he and his wife make enough money between the two of them to have anything a person could want. How can I respect that? If he wants to play for the Canadiens, and bleed his heart for the Canadiens, then he takes the first or even the second offer and that's that.

Who's gonna play the point? Markov, Hamrlik, Streit, Brisebois potentially Kostitsyn or Kovalev. All of them are more defensively responsible, yes even Kostitsyn and Kovalev. Souray frothed out the mouth and oozed stupid when he was in his own end.

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08-20-2007, 03:28 PM
  #89
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Interesting...Hab fans who think they are getting a defensively sound dman in Hamrlik obviously didn't watch his play in the last half of the season. He was terrible.

Overall.....he was much, MUCH better defensively than Souray...that's all we're saying.

Souray is one of the most 1-dimensional players I've seen. And his toughness was pretty-much absent over the last season. My guess so as to protect his offensive stats.

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08-20-2007, 03:30 PM
  #90
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In any case, I submit to you that Gainey never had any interest in signing Sourray. That he felt he needed to make an offer for appearances, but that he prefered to find a more defensive defenseman. It would certainly explain the way it all played out.

In any case, my beef is not with Sourray, he's free to sign whereever he feels wanted or well paid. And I have no real beef with Gainey. Though I am beggining lately to question some rather flabbergasting decisions he's made, some of them are completely mind numbing {like refusing to negotiate with your own players during the season, that one just leaves me dumbfounded}.

What really upsets me is how the fans berate, swear at, and dissmiss Sourray and players like him for simply signing a contract where he feels most comfortable, at a price they are willing to pay. I simply do not understand this obsession with degrading our own players in this fashion and dismissing years of loyal service so easily. I for one will not cheer against him, nor will i wish him bad with his new team, and i frankly don't understand anyone who does.
It's quite possible that Gainey knew signing Souray wouldn't be easy. He only kept him because he didn't want to give the fans the impression that he was giving up on the playoffs.

I fully believe that if Souray was considered a vital part of the Montreal Canadiens' future, they would have signed him. If you ask me they made the right decision.

Let's put things into perspective. We're not a Stanley Cup winning team. Do we just keep rewarding our core players for years of mediocrity? I wouldn't have given Souray the money he wanted either.

Now with all that said, signing Hamrlik really bothered me when it happened, and it still bothers me when I think about it. But at that point Souray was already apparently betrayed or insulted so there was no way he was coming back to us.

So I still think we made the right decision in the end. I won't cheer against Souray, but I will say that he will not re-produce his offensive output last year.

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08-20-2007, 03:32 PM
  #91
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It's funny because Souray did say Markov was the priority all along.

Basically he goes on to say that the Habs didn't offer him market value. This is even richer:

Translation: I'm better than Andrei Markov & deserve more. He turned down the May offer (maybe 12m/3 yrs) and then the day after Markov was signed he was made another, of which he says this:
He was pretty clear that he understood that Markov was the priority and he could understand why.

What he was upset about was the way he felt he got lowballed and that the Habs weren't really falling over themselves to re-sign him. I can certainly understand where he was coming from.

If we wanted to re-sign him we should've offered him what we offered Hammer the first time around. Then maybe he'd still be here. But even if he wasn't here at least we could point the finger at Souray rather than the way we handled things ourselves.
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That's the statement of a person who feels scorned, treated unfairly and who has some hurt feelings. Plain and simple. 2 weeks, basically, was all it took for him to sit and stew and say to himself "They're treating me like crap."

He's entitled to his opinion, but clearly he had no intention of staying in Montreal if it meant being paid less then Markov and Saku Koivu.... that's made clear from this article.
Again, he was clear that he understood that Markov was the main guy and that he would set the pay standard. He didn't have a problem with it.

And he has a right to feel angry if we lowballed him. You wouldn't work for an employer that you felt was lowballing you so why should he?

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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
Really, it's not surprising that people here are perplexed by these comments. Souray has changed his opinion about the club more times then changing his underwear. If he felt disrespected by the initial offer, he should have been advised that it *is* business and not a personal shot at him. But he took it personally and now he plays for Edmonton.
When your employer lowballs you... it shows how much they value your contributions. Yes it gets somewhat personal but if an employer lowballed me and there were others out there, I would think it would be smart to move on. Even strictly from a business standpoint its the right move. Plus Edmonton was offering five years.

Yes he's disingenious when he says it was 'strictly' business, but he admits as much when he says he was disappointed by the offers. It goes hand in hand. [/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
I always thought he had an ego; this is what it looks like when it's bruised. I'm not angry or disappointed in Souray, pro atheletes behave this way all the time. It's what makes the true character guys like Saku and Yzerman and Selanne so great and appreciated around the league for their attitude towards the game (which includes the fact that it's a business).
Sure. But Yzerman had reason to be loyal to Detroit. They always treated him well.
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
For all the apologists out there: How many think that Edmonton overpaid? Or is Souray's contract a perfect reflection of value?
Edmonton definitely overpaid and I'm glad its them on the hook for the contract and not us.

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08-20-2007, 03:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by mabus View Post

In any case, I submit to you that Gainey never had any interest in signing Sourray. That he felt he needed to make an offer for appearances, but that he prefered to find a more defensive defenseman. It would certainly explain the way it all played out.

I actually agree with you on that point. unbelievable i know. I got that feeling myself, however if BG really did feel that way he should of pulled the trigger at the trade deadline even if it would have been wildly unpopular considering the situation the club was in at the time. not the best asset management imo, but i understand why he made the decision he did. when your a contending team i can understand why you wouldn't trade away impending ufa's ,but we weren't and aren't contenders at the current time, so it would have been better for the organization to get some assets in return instead of nothing even if unpopular.

and no my opinion isnt based on hindsight i felt this way at the trading deadline as i stated in my posts at the time and nothing has changed in this regard. Kudos to the very small group of posters who believed it would have been in the organizations best interest to make that move at the deadline. I still can't believe people wanted us to be buyers at the trade deadline. thank goodness that didn't happen it would have been a major set back. imo.

Souray's comments don't bother me at all and really i dont see much wrong with them and wish him the best of luck in Edmonton.

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08-20-2007, 03:37 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by earl_the_habs_fan View Post
When pride , jealousy, or ego come into play in a contract negotiation under the guise of "respect" I consider it a maturity issue. Perhaps not the word that bests describes the problem, but not far off either. Anyway my point was to clarify the original post which had some serious errors in fact and spun the story in a different direction.
It isn't a maturity issue though. If your employer doesn't make you feel like you are valued then you will move on. And you would be smart to do so.

You can call him a crybaby all you want but that's not how it works in the real world. And I'd venture to say that you'd do the same thing in his shoes as most of us would.

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08-20-2007, 03:48 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
but i understand why he made the decision he did. when your a contending team i can understand why you wouldn't trade away impending ufa's ,but we weren't and aren't contenders at the current time, so it would have been better for the organization to get some assets in return instead of nothing even if unpopular.
Here's the thing. If Gainey wanted to get rid of Sourray, he should have pulled a trade at the trade deadlinewhen Sourray's value was highest. If he wanted to sign him, he should have done so DURING THE SEASON. Either way, he screwed up. If he wanted to keep him he should have moved to sign him long before free agency started, not at the very last second as he did, and if he did not want to, he should have traded him away. He did neither.

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08-20-2007, 03:53 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Here's the thing. If Gainey wanted to get rid of Sourray, he should have pulled a trade at the trade deadlinewhen Sourray's value was highest. If he wanted to sign him, he should have done so DURING THE SEASON. Either way, he screwed up. If he wanted to keep him he should have moved to sign him long before free agency started, not at the very last second as he did, and if he did not want to, he should have traded him away. He did neither.
Why? What's the problem with keeping your player and trying to make the playoffs? Think of it like Gainey acquired Souray as a playoff rental and didn't have to give up any picks or prospects to get him.

There's nothing wrong with sometimes keeping your players till their contract is up and then letting them go their own way. We know now we didn't make the playoffs, but you can't know that at the deadline.

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08-20-2007, 03:56 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by #11 Saku Koivu View Post
Why? What's the problem with keeping your player and trying to make the playoffs? Think of it like Gainey acquired Souray as a playoff rental and didn't have to give up any picks or prospects to get him.

There's nothing wrong with sometimes keeping your players till their contract is up and then letting them go their own way. We know now we didn't make the playoffs, but you can't know that at the deadline.
In my opinion, it was a foolish gamble to take in light of the way we had been playing and Huet's injury.

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08-20-2007, 03:57 PM
  #97
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I read the article carefully, and it simply confirms all the scenarios I envisioned before.

Souray is just full of it, ot simply immature.

1-How can he complain about being 7th or 8th on the Montreal list?
(which is an extreme stretch of the truth... after all, he was made an offer right after Markov - an not ridicule as he seems to elude to... after all the offer made to Markov, in retrospect, is just as below market... once all the UFA market offers came out)....
So he complains about being 7th or 8th... yet, Edmonton's offer came so late in the game... that it can only be considered as an xieme option for the Oilers... so his arguement doesn't stick one bit

2-His example of being offered $2000 for a cadillac when it is worth $10 000 is again extreme.... he was offered $4 year... when he thought he should have been offered $4.5.... That's not 5 times less... that's 10% less. Which sounds fair as a home town discount.

Now one say it was only a 3 year contract instead of 5... which then become less than 2 times less.. not 5 times less... but again... nothing stops him to sign another contract in 3 years... so it's not like really Montreal tried to steal him ... so it is really not 2 times less.

3-He didn't come up with a counter offer. I am so glad he admitted that, I suspected that all along. He says that he was offered so little, that there was no reason to make a counter offer (that's when he used the ultra deceiving argument of the $2000 cadillac).... For god sake, he could have return the ball and say give me 10% more and one more year...

So he was greedy, and got that self serving argument to test the market....

4-He refused the offer that was made to Hamrlik once he declined it. So that's his fault... Montreal was not to wait like a bunch of idiots... and they turned around after Souray refused it....

So looking at this back... Souray was the one who put Montreal down on his list. He was too eager to listen to all those teams offers...

So I under people that say "F.... him"....

Souray is full of it, or simply immature and self centered in his contract negotations.

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08-20-2007, 04:01 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It isn't a maturity issue though. If your employer doesn't make you feel like you are valued then you will move on. And you would be smart to do so.

You can call him a crybaby all you want but that's not how it works in the real world. And I'd venture to say that you'd do the same thing in his shoes as most of us would.
But this isn't anywhere near the real world. He's a one of a kind commodity in a industry where the employer has a fixed salary cap.

If I rejected a 100 percent raise from my employer, and they exercised their right to look for a replacement for me how could I not be understanding of that? If they then came back and offered me a 110 percent raise and I still rejected it, this is no longer a matter of being unvalued or disrespected.

My point is not with Souray's right to reject the offers and play where he wants, it's the account of events (which I believe conveniently has some gaps in it ) and his implying that he didn't sign because negotiations "didn't go as he expected" and that financially lucrative offers were "too late". That's simply lying or bringing undue emotion to the transaction. Either way Souray is being dishonest with fans who think highly of him, and Stubbs article channels that dishonesty right to our hearts.

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08-20-2007, 04:07 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Here's the thing. If Gainey wanted to get rid of Sourray, he should have pulled a trade at the trade deadlinewhen Sourray's value was highest. If he wanted to sign him, he should have done so DURING THE SEASON. Either way, he screwed up. If he wanted to keep him he should have moved to sign him long before free agency started, not at the very last second as he did, and if he did not want to, he should have traded him away. He did neither.
If he traded him away, it would have give the impression that he was giving up on the season - which would be insulting to all of the people that sell out the Bell Centre every single home game.

He owed it to the fans to try and make the playoffs. Sure he could have dumped him for some good draft picks or prospects but he felt that keeping him would give us a chance at the playoffs - and he was right. We just blew it at the end.

By signing Hamrlik, he "replaced" Souray's position and didn't have to give anything away to get him.

It remains to be seen whether Hamrlik can play anywhere close to his paycheck though. Personally I wouldn't have signed him.

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Old
08-20-2007, 04:09 PM
  #100
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If he had stayed I'd be happy. He's gone now, so why do so many people care so much that they feel insulted or angry? Give it a rest, it's his life, he can do what he wants. Don't like it? Fine. I see no reason to be so bitter about it.

He said nothing wrong in the article, unless you choose to read between the lines with cynicism and motive. Just let it go already, the new season is upon us and Souray isn't part of it.

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