HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Support the Jets!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-06-2004, 03:14 AM
  #26
BERTUZZINATION
Registered User
 
BERTUZZINATION's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DC
Country: Canada
Posts: 322
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=kenabnrmal]Stats to back this up please. Pretty sure you're off-base on the first point. The second is true for Calgary for sure...Edmonton has a larger corporage sector, but not by as much as you think, I suspect. Taxes are definitely lower in Alberta. I'd like to see proof of Alberta's economy being so much "stronger" than Manitoba's...as well as a definition of "strength of economy". The final could very-well be true, but I'd love to see the fact.


Not really doubting you, just would like to see the numbers, and I'm not going to do the research to support your own argument.

[QUOTE]

go to any government site and see how many federal transfers that Alberta has recieved (none) to that of Manitoba (a lot). It is a well-known fact that Alberta has a much stronger economy than Manitoba. How many articles have been recently published proclaiming the death of Winnipeg's downtown? It seems everyone is pinning their hopes on this arena. With Calgary just breaking 1 000 000 citizens and Edmonton about to as well, I just can't see a city that won't break 700 000 people likely until 2012 having anything to do with an NHL team (in Canada, that is). The bottom line is, I don't think the NHL can take a chance on a city, even though it would be nice. They can't risk looking like they're a struggling league, constantly moving teams around...they need somewhere that will be a definate success story. My guess...Portland. Right size, wealthy people...it's a match.

there is some hope, however...Bettman says that the NHL is looking for more intimate arenas...maybe Winnipeg could be a testing ground?

BERTUZZINATION is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 03:21 AM
  #27
Safir*
 
Safir*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Country: Turkmenistan
Posts: 13,959
vCash: 500
I don't want the Penguins to leave Pittsburgh.

Why doesn't Winnipeg approach Jim Rutherford and asks for the availablity of the Hurricanes?

If Raleigh can afford an NHL, than why can't Winnipeg?

Safir* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 04:13 AM
  #28
SensGod
Registered User
 
SensGod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Scotia Bank Place
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to SensGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
I'd like to see how many Texans go to hockey games when the Stars become a bad team.

Also this new arena in Winnipeg can be expanded to 18,000 seats if needed. Market size is the issue.
I guess you could fairly say that they are a bad team this year...

SensGod is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 04:30 AM
  #29
Rabid Ranger
Drifter
 
Rabid Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Old School
Country: United States
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomACE
I don't want the Penguins to leave Pittsburgh.

Why doesn't Winnipeg approach Jim Rutherford and asks for the availablity of the Hurricanes?

If Raleigh can afford an NHL, than why can't Winnipeg?


Do you know anything about Raleigh, or are you relying on "Deliverance" stereotypes about North Carolina?

Rabid Ranger is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 04:51 AM
  #30
Snakeeye
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Stats to back this up please. Pretty sure you're off-base on the first point. The second is true for Calgary for sure...Edmonton has a larger corporage sector, but not by as much as you think, I suspect. Taxes are definitely lower in Alberta. I'd like to see proof of Alberta's economy being so much "stronger" than Manitoba's...as well as a definition of "strength of economy". The final could very-well be true, but I'd love to see the fact.


Not really doubting you, just would like to see the numbers, and I'm not going to do the research to support your own argument.
Population is easy.

The population of Manitoba, according to the 2001 Census was 1,119,583, which was virtually unchanged vs teh 1996 cenus. The City of Winnipeg had 619,544 people. Again, virtually unchanged against 1996 (0.2% growth).

The City of Calgary had 878,866 people according to that census (+ 14.4% over 1996), and the City of Edmonton was at 666,104 (+8.1%)

Throw in Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks, Strathmore, the MD's of Rockyview, Foothills and Wheatland, surrounding smaller communities, and the Calgary area population is just under 1.2 million.

Calgary by itself is expected to top 1 million by the beginning of 2005.

Throw in St. Albert, Leduc, Fort Saskatchewan, Spruce Grove, Stony Plain, The County of Strathcona, and surrounding municipalities, and Edmonton area population is around 1.1 million.

I can find better economic indicators for you later, if you like, but the growth rates of the three cities is a huge indication that Alberta has a much stronger economy.

Snakeeye is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 04:53 AM
  #31
Safir*
 
Safir*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Country: Turkmenistan
Posts: 13,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger
Do you know anything about Raleigh, or are you relying on "Deliverance" stereotypes about North Carolina?
It's the captial of North Carolina.

I've been there twice.

Safir* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 05:54 AM
  #32
YellHockey*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,830
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
I can find better economic indicators for you later, if you like, but the growth rates of the three cities is a huge indication that Alberta has a much stronger economy.
From the 2001 census, Calgary has a median income that is ~$10,000 higher then Winnipeg. Edmonton's median income is only ~$5,000 higher then Winnipeg's.

YellHockey* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 06:26 AM
  #33
kenabnrmal
Registered User
 
kenabnrmal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: the beach or rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Population is easy.

The population of Manitoba, according to the 2001 Census was 1,119,583, which was virtually unchanged vs teh 1996 cenus. The City of Winnipeg had 619,544 people. Again, virtually unchanged against 1996 (0.2% growth).

The City of Calgary had 878,866 people according to that census (+ 14.4% over 1996), and the City of Edmonton was at 666,104 (+8.1%)

Throw in Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks, Strathmore, the MD's of Rockyview, Foothills and Wheatland, surrounding smaller communities, and the Calgary area population is just under 1.2 million.

Calgary by itself is expected to top 1 million by the beginning of 2005.

Throw in St. Albert, Leduc, Fort Saskatchewan, Spruce Grove, Stony Plain, The County of Strathcona, and surrounding municipalities, and Edmonton area population is around 1.1 million.

I can find better economic indicators for you later, if you like, but the growth rates of the three cities is a huge indication that Alberta has a much stronger economy.
Heres a more recent population report...

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Winnip...19/291481.html

So 1.164 million in Manitoba now. Not a huge jump, but apparently the province is seeing some growth.

I don't know enough about the surrounding areas of Calgary and Edmonton, so I don't know how close the "surrounding municipalities" are to the main cities. I know a lot of the Jets support came from those in surrounding towns as well, Steinback, Stonewall, Selkirk, etc. Looked around briefly and couldn't find population numbers for those towns, but I'm sure they don't push Winnipeg's nearby population up quite as much as the surrounding areas do for Calgary and Edmonton. These two centers are definintely larger, and like I said...I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with a lot of the points made. However, I wanted some facts to go along with the poster's assertions. I'm not going to do the research for another guy's arguments.

thanks for the numbers on Edmonton and Calgary.

kenabnrmal is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 06:43 AM
  #34
The Kitner Boy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Country: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomACE
Why doesn't Winnipeg approach Jim Rutherford and asks for the availablity of the Hurricanes?

First of all Rutheford doesn’t own the team, he is the GM. Peter Karmanos owns the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomACE
If Raleigh can afford an NHL, than why can't Winnipeg?
Start with a list of Fortune 500 companies that have large operations in Winnipeg. There is a lot of corporate money in Triangle and outside of a few odd franchises (i.e. the Green Bay Packers), corporate money is crucial.

The Kitner Boy is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 06:49 AM
  #35
Safir*
 
Safir*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Country: Turkmenistan
Posts: 13,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. X
Start with a list of Fortune 500 companies that have large operations in Winnipeg. There is a lot of corporate money in Triangle and outside of a few odd franchises (i.e. the Green Bay Packers), corporate money is crucial.
Aha!!!

Which are the big companies behind the Hurricanes?

Safir* is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 06:53 AM
  #36
Slats432
Registered User
 
Slats432's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Slats has made it perfectly clear that he is adamantly opposed to a the idea of a team in Winnipeg, so don't take his response personally, JVille.
I want it on the record that since I was a child, I was a Jets fan. I grew up 120 miles east of Winnipeg in Mike Richards hometown Kenora.(Actually the first NHL game I ever saw live was the Jets and Canucks playing an exhibition game in Kenora, ON)

I loved Bobby Hull, Anders Hedberg, Ulf Nilsson, Barry Long, Lars Erik Sjoberg.

I was proud that they were a successful franchise. I was proud that they made it into the NHL.

I am only saying one thing. Winnipeg can't support an NHL team. They didn't last time, and they don't have the capability even with a new CBA to do it this time.

The average NHL salary in 1988 was $259,036 (Source Sports Illustrated).

The attendance of the Winnipeg Jets 1988-89 ---> 12816

So now, I am no economic genius, but I can see that Winnipeg didn't support their NHL team last time. There is no reason for me to believe that with the average salary at $1.7 million, even if it came down 40% close to $1 million avergage. That is 4 times what it was in 1988.

If the NHL had big TV money, and the average salary was $750 000, and the Jets could squeeze corporate and fan support out of 'Peggers without fail, then the impossible becomes possible.

In a perfect world, the Jets are the NHL's Green Bay Packers.(Which would make me very happy.)

The NHL is too far away from that perfect world to even fathom it as a possibility.

Slats432 is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 07:03 AM
  #37
SabresRule
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,314
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to SabresRule
i think the pens should move. im gonna be flamed for that big time. but i think they would survive better there.

flame away.

SabresRule is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 08:17 AM
  #38
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 30,465
vCash: 500
Wouldn't the Pens have the exact same problem in Winnipeg that they have in Pittsburgh? The only reason why the team is struggling is because they operate in an outdated arena and aren't getting the funds they need. Isn't Winnipeg Arena just as old and decrepit as the Igloo?

Stephen is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 08:20 AM
  #39
looooob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Wouldn't the Pens have the exact same problem in Winnipeg that they have in Pittsburgh? The only reason why the team is struggling is because they operate in an outdated arena and aren't getting the funds they need. Isn't Winnipeg Arena just as old and decrepit as the Igloo?
yes
we are only having this discussion because Winnipeg is building a new (smallish) arena

however I agree...the NHL to Winnipeg is still a huge stretch in the forseeable future

looooob is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:16 AM
  #40
Snakeeye
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Wouldn't the Pens have the exact same problem in Winnipeg that they have in Pittsburgh? The only reason why the team is struggling is because they operate in an outdated arena and aren't getting the funds they need. Isn't Winnipeg Arena just as old and decrepit as the Igloo?
Given the Pens went bankrupt in the 70s (I think... maybe the 80s) as well, I'd suggest the problems in Pittsburgh goes beyond the arena.

Snakeeye is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:23 AM
  #41
Snakeeye
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
The average NHL salary in 1988 was $259,036 (Source Sports Illustrated).

The attendance of the Winnipeg Jets 1988-89 ---> 12816
Jets finish in 1988-89: Dead last in the Smythe.

There are a lot of reasons to argue against returning to Winnipeg. A random year from the 1980s isnt the very best one.

Oh, Minnesota North Stars attendance in 1988-89: 9795. Minnesota was even less able to support a team. I guess we should relocate the Wild before the Fans in St. Paul remember that they cant support hockey, eh?

Snakeeye is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:32 AM
  #42
Belamorte
Feed Your Head
 
Belamorte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North American Scum
Posts: 1,932
vCash: 500
O please... Winnipeg is not getting a NHL team... All these threads suggesting/hopping so are getting annoying.... Like has been said before Houston/Portland are getting teams before anyone else...It is a nice (dreamy) thought that Winnipeg or Quebec City would get teams but it is not happening...Geez Winnipeg couldnt and didnt support a team when they had one, what makes anyone think they would support one now...

There will be less teams in Canada before there are more...

Belamorte is online now  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:43 AM
  #43
The Kitner Boy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Country: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomACE
Aha!!!

Which are the big companies behind the Hurricanes?
Aha!!!
http://www.carolinahurricanes.com/custom/rad5FEE9.asp

The Kitner Boy is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:43 AM
  #44
Slats432
Registered User
 
Slats432's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Given the Pens went bankrupt in the 70s (I think... maybe the 80s) as well, I'd suggest the problems in Pittsburgh goes beyond the arena.
Can't argue with people that are blind to the truth....give a team to Steinbach and The Pas while you are at it, maybe they can have a Canadian Prarie rivalry.

Slats432 is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:48 AM
  #45
Slats432
Registered User
 
Slats432's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Jets finish in 1988-89: Dead last in the Smythe.

There are a lot of reasons to argue against returning to Winnipeg. A random year from the 1980s isnt the very best one.

Oh, Minnesota North Stars attendance in 1988-89: 9795. Minnesota was even less able to support a team. I guess we should relocate the Wild before the Fans in St. Paul remember that they cant support hockey, eh?
I took a window in time that showed the correlation between attendance and salaries.

The Jets did not have one year of sold out hockey in their history in the NHL.

They have an arena right now that they just built that has less capacity and luxury suites than the Mellon Arena.(And as a representative of True North said, it is not expandable. And some people keep talking about NHL approved arena. That is horsecrap too because the guy at True North on Fan 590 said he had no idea if the NHL had arena criteria)

They have a low population base and not enough corporate support to be viable.

All they have is a bunch of die hard Canadian hockey fans whining about why there isn't hockey in Winnipeg. Well it failed. It failed then and it would fail now.

Slats432 is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 09:57 AM
  #46
Snakeeye
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 735
vCash: 500
Wow, look. There are some better arguments against returning to Winnipeg.

Why didnt you post those in the first place?

Snakeeye is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 11:49 AM
  #47
Rabid Ranger
Drifter
 
Rabid Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Old School
Country: United States
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by whlfanatic
Yeah cause you know they are real hockey towns.


Its time those corporate american dickheads stoppped running CANADAS game into the ground. They need to start worrying about bringing the NHL back to canadian cities.

You mean corporate hotbeds like Winnipeg, Quebec City, Halifax, and Hamilton?

Rabid Ranger is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 11:55 AM
  #48
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,379
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by whlfanatic
Yeah cause you know they are real hockey towns.
Well, there are no real hockey towns in America. But that's besides the point. You can't say that a city isn't a hockey city when it doesn't have a pro team, because you have nothing to base it on. How do you know Houston wouldn't support a team? Because it's in Texas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whlfanatic
Its time those corporate american dickheads stoppped running CANADAS game into the ground. They need to start worrying about bringing the NHL back to canadian cities.
Corporate money is what runs sports now. Every sport. And the corporate money is in the US. Why hasn't there been expansion into Canada beyond two teams in the MLB and NBA? Why aren't there any NFL teams in Canada? Because it's the American dollar that is coveted.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 12:11 PM
  #49
jiggs 10
Registered User
 
jiggs 10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hockeytown, ND
Country: United States
Posts: 3,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
I took a window in time that showed the correlation between attendance and salaries.

The Jets did not have one year of sold out hockey in their history in the NHL.

They have an arena right now that they just built that has less capacity and luxury suites than the Mellon Arena.(And as a representative of True North said, it is not expandable. And some people keep talking about NHL approved arena. That is horsecrap too because the guy at True North on Fan 590 said he had no idea if the NHL had arena criteria)

They have a low population base and not enough corporate support to be viable.

All they have is a bunch of die hard Canadian hockey fans whining about why there isn't hockey in Winnipeg. Well it failed. It failed then and it would fail now.
I don't find 1.1 million in the Winnipeg Metro area to be all that small, but it's true there is not a lot of corporate help waiting there. The new arena COULD be built up to 17,000 easily by adding 3 more rows at the top (and a True North rep said this is being looked at). While that's still a little under the NHL minimum of 18,000, an exemption would be an easy thing to get from Bettman.
Hockey didn't fail in Winnipeg. The old owner failed the team. He wanted a new arena, and when he didn't get it, he moved the team to Phoenix, where he's gotten 2 new arenas. But no bodies IN those arenas! With a new arena and another team, the new Winnipeg team should easily average 14,000 (or more than 12 other current NHL teams). But none of this matters, because Mario has already said no to the idea. It's just the Deputy Mayor of Winnipeg's pipedream.

jiggs 10 is offline  
Old
01-06-2004, 12:23 PM
  #50
rye&ginger
Registered User
 
rye&ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
I guess you could fairly say that they are a bad team this year...
re: Dallas

Yeah, but their season ticket holders will still be there. When their team doesnt make the playoffs for a few years in a row, thats what I wonder about.

rye&ginger is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.