HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

back end

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-27-2007, 08:06 PM
  #26
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It was still a pro-league. You still have to produce, and not many guys put up big numbers where NHL fans look at them enough to know that in Europe, they don't.
ah, i'm not saying it wasn't... i'm pointing out that you said that Joni didn't produce a ton before he came over. i rebutted that he did, in fact, produce more than Kukkonen did... non-trivially better, in fact.

Kukkonen's last season in Finland: 56GP 11G 16A 27P (23 y/o)
Pitkanen's last season in Finland: 35GP 5G 15A 20P (19 y/o) (32 pts if he'd played 56)

Kukkonen, as a 19 y/o, put up 47GP 1G 5A 6P

Pitkanen is obviously a much more talented player in skill-set than Kukkonen. However, what those numbers suggest to me is that he improved offensively... but it wasn't until he was in his mid 20s that he started to touch where a young offensive defenseman like Pitkanen was from the outset. Kukkonen is 26... he's settling into where his talent/play are going to be... which is a stable, DEFENSIVE defenseman, who has the ability to move the puck and skate the puck, but that is most likely not going to translate into a "very offensive" defenseman, and he isn't someone you're going to want on the point of a strong PP...

nothing against the guy, i think he's a great glue defenseman for the bottom 2 pairings, who will help a ton on the PK and even strength. it is unlikely, IMO, that he will develop an offensive game to earn the level you're attempting to apply to him... and it's unfair to seek that.

similar to the people who apply extremely high offensive goals for Mike Richards... good players, very valuable, but they're not going to set the world on fire offensively most likely.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2007, 08:12 PM
  #27
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 116,004
vCash: 580
Kukkonen very likely didn't get as much opportunities as Pitkanen did. It's a league where they give preference to veterans, much like they do in the NHL. They gave Pitkanen opportunities when he was 19 because his talent and play merited it.

You threw numbers at me after I already said that you can't look at numbers from young players in Europe, because they don't matter.

You're also saying that I'm putting numbers and expectations on Kukkonen when I'm not. I said he can be, not he will be, his offensive game will still improve, but if you talk to people in Finland they'll tell you that Kukkonen's offensive game last season was not indicative of what he is capable of

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

Stop Feeding the Rumor-Monger

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2014 (sorry it's late)
GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2007, 08:39 PM
  #28
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Kukkonen very likely didn't get as much opportunities as Pitkanen did. It's a league where they give preference to veterans, much like they do in the NHL. They gave Pitkanen opportunities when he was 19 because his talent and play merited it.

You threw numbers at me after I already said that you can't look at numbers from young players in Europe, because they don't matter.

You're also saying that I'm putting numbers and expectations on Kukkonen when I'm not. I said he can be, not he will be, his offensive game will still improve, but if you talk to people in Finland they'll tell you that Kukkonen's offensive game last season was not indicative of what he is capable of
you said:

Quote:
It was still a pro-league. You still have to produce, and not many guys put up big numbers where NHL fans look at them enough to know that in Europe, they don't.
that suggests that we can't take anything from them without context... i provided context of two european players, playing for the same team... one producing on a curve that was significantly better than the other...

clearly Kukkonen is a better offensive player than the 0 in 20 games we saw here in Philly. however, that drought wasn't some black cloud purely based on who he was playing with here. 20-30 pts from him will be fine, and he'll be an average offensive player in this league for a defenseman... nothing about his game, and what he's done at any point in his career suggests he's going to be 'very offensive'.

doesn't matter what league you are in... if you produce, you'll get more chances to produce... just as you suggested was the case with Pitkanen... they weren't discriminating against him, he was good enough, he got out there and produced.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2007, 10:19 PM
  #29
TheKingPin
Registered User
 
TheKingPin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,549
vCash: 500
wow offense for dman is overrated. there are certain guys that will get thier points cause they are that good but for hte most part if you put a guy like kukkonen on the point as a top 4 guy he will get 30 pts just by being on the ice with carter, upshall, lupul, and hatnell plus time with the first line. a scroing D is not needed. especcsially in our division...

with the choice of a defesive dman or offsevie guys i pick defense against he pens and rangers...

TheKingPin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2007, 11:58 PM
  #30
thedjpd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyersphan View Post
wow offense for dman is overrated. there are certain guys that will get thier points cause they are that good but for hte most part if you put a guy like kukkonen on the point as a top 4 guy he will get 30 pts just by being on the ice with carter, upshall, lupul, and hatnell plus time with the first line. a scroing D is not needed. especcsially in our division...

with the choice of a defesive dman or offsevie guys i pick defense against he pens and rangers...
I agree with the first part - I think offensive 'production' from the defense is really being overrated here. Not all d-men have to be offensive whizzes with the puck; they just have to be able to move it.

You don't need 5 60 point defenseman back there or your offense being screwed; you just need a few defensive dmen, and the rest don't have to be dynamos - just capable of moving up to the forwards.

Timmonen, Picard, Coburn, Kukkonen can move the puck forward - I think with those 4 we'll be fine. Hatcher is a slug with the puck, obviously as are Gauthier and Smith. But the bulk of offense on the backend will be from Timmonen - figure 50 points. Coburn will get 20-25, and Kukkonen can stick with 10-15 but capable of moving the puck to the offense. That's what matters; getting the puck forward to the offense while they're in stride; not necessarily raw offensive talent.

thedjpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 08:26 AM
  #31
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I think Coburn might provide more O than you think - at least in terms of outlet passes and following up. If he plays with Hatcher again, as we expect, he'll have the puck ALL the time so he'd better do something with it.

Agreed that either Picard or Jones might be better creating offense with Kukkonen in the 3rd pairing than Gauthier - but we'll have to see what Homer has in mind and if he actually does move Goat before the season starts.
I know I said this 1000 times, but I would really like to see Coburn with Smith and Timonen with Kukkonen.

I dont want Hatcher on the ice as much as I would like Coburn to play. That only works if Picard is there instead of Gauthier.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 08:38 AM
  #32
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 116,004
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
you said:



that suggests that we can't take anything from them without context... i provided context of two european players, playing for the same team... one producing on a curve that was significantly better than the other...

clearly Kukkonen is a better offensive player than the 0 in 20 games we saw here in Philly. however, that drought wasn't some black cloud purely based on who he was playing with here. 20-30 pts from him will be fine, and he'll be an average offensive player in this league for a defenseman... nothing about his game, and what he's done at any point in his career suggests he's going to be 'very offensive'.

doesn't matter what league you are in... if you produce, you'll get more chances to produce... just as you suggested was the case with Pitkanen... they weren't discriminating against him, he was good enough, he got out there and produced.
I said he can be more offensive. I wasn't putting numbers on him as to what he should put up. Just because he doesn't have numbers doesn't mean he doesn't produce offensively. You started throwing out numbers and I said you can't look at his previous numbers because of where he was playing, where offensive isn't a hallmark of European leagues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I know I said this 1000 times, but I would really like to see Coburn with Smith and Timonen with Kukkonen.

I dont want Hatcher on the ice as much as I would like Coburn to play. That only works if Picard is there instead of Gauthier.
Hatcher and Coburn was probably our best pairing down the stretch.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 09:02 AM
  #33
LEIFey
Context Matters!
 
LEIFey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 7,432
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to LEIFey
hatcher was kind of a mentor to coburn. coburn definitely played with more of an edge with hatch and he's fast enough to cover hatcher's blunders. sounds like chemistry to me.

LEIFey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 11:32 AM
  #34
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I said he can be more offensive. I wasn't putting numbers on him as to what he should put up. Just because he doesn't have numbers doesn't mean he doesn't produce offensively. You started throwing out numbers and I said you can't look at his previous numbers because of where he was playing, where offensive isn't a hallmark of European leagues.
no, you said he can be "very" offensive, and there's a difference... especially when attempting to relate it to the discussion with regard to this group of defenseman as an offensive unit. when i said that was expecting too much, you asked me why... because he didn't produce last year?

i produced why and you gave some asinine response about how we can basically disregard european statistics... which is patently false. you evaluate them differently, but good offensive players do produce over there... it doesn't necessarily translate, but guys produce.

you cited Pitkanen as a counter to the claim that we should see production from Kukkonen... Pitkanen produced at a higher clip before coming over. however, to further disprove your claim that offense can't be culled from looking at European statistics, look at what Rafalski did over there (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=4438). he is someone i would classify as a 'very offensive' defenseman, and that shows up in how he produced over there.

the European game is dominated by systems... and played by young players who come to the NHL while their games are still developing, and guys that aren't quite good enough to play in the NHL for the most part... the reason your claim normally works, is because 20/21 y/o's aren't where they're going to be... however, you can still look at statistical production and get an idea what to expect.

with Kukkonen, you don't see a particularly offensive player. he had a career year in which he produced <.5ppg. by all accounts i've read, he was a main player for that Karpat team for a number of years (mostly via Meltzer). i'm not tossing around numbers that you must disregard, you simply look at them in context... other defenseman have produced very well in the same league, because they're better offensive players. Kukkonen is a good player, but you're giving him a bit too much credit in the grand scheme of thing. 20-25 is likely from him, and that's fine... i'm not saying he's going to score 0 pts, but he's not going to be 'very offensive' either.

i hope i'm wrong, as it would balance our squad out considerably.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 11:34 AM
  #35
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyersphan View Post
wow offense for dman is overrated. there are certain guys that will get thier points cause they are that good but for hte most part if you put a guy like kukkonen on the point as a top 4 guy he will get 30 pts just by being on the ice with carter, upshall, lupul, and hatnell plus time with the first line. a scroing D is not needed. especcsially in our division...

with the choice of a defesive dman or offsevie guys i pick defense against he pens and rangers...
offense from individual defenseman gets overrated, but offense from the group is very important to a balanced offensive attack and takes a ton of pressure off the forwards. Gauthier is likely not to last here, but if you have a lineup of Gauthier, Smith, and Hatcher... then you have 3 guys who literally bring nothing to the table offensively. Coburn will be an average offensive defenseman (which is fine) down the road, and Kukkonen is a slightly lesser version of that most likely.

all of that adds up to a crappy two-way unit... ideally, you have one more guy who can bring it on offense to help even things out a bit.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 02:35 PM
  #36
Dig Out Your Soul
Ex Storm...
 
Dig Out Your Soul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
I agree with the first part - I think offensive 'production' from the defense is really being overrated here. Not all d-men have to be offensive whizzes with the puck; they just have to be able to move it.

You don't need 5 60 point defenseman back there or your offense being screwed; you just need a few defensive dmen, and the rest don't have to be dynamos - just capable of moving up to the forwards.

Timmonen, Picard, Coburn, Kukkonen can move the puck forward - I think with those 4 we'll be fine. Hatcher is a slug with the puck, obviously as are Gauthier and Smith. But the bulk of offense on the backend will be from Timmonen - figure 50 points. Coburn will get 20-25, and Kukkonen can stick with 10-15 but capable of moving the puck to the offense. That's what matters; getting the puck forward to the offense while they're in stride; not necessarily raw offensive talent.
It might be overrated but you still need competent guys to run the powerplay. Right now we only have one - Timonen. People can go on and on about what they think Kukkonen and Coburn can do on the powerplay, but until they do it we have one proven commodity. We're going to end up seeing Sami Kapanen back on the powerplay playing the point and that my friends is a huge problem.

Dig Out Your Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 03:25 PM
  #37
Lupul*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 7,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
We're going to end up seeing Sami Kapanen back on the powerplay playing the point
i'll kill myself

Lupul* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 03:43 PM
  #38
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,220
vCash: 500
I like how only two other people on here (besides myself) believe that Picard is going to make the team. I don't get why people think he won't make the team. He played 68 games last season, he had 21 points, played over 18 minutes a night, and didn't look that bad until the last 15 games of the season. I'm willing to bet that he steps it up this year and increases his production by 19 points. The guy has 40 points written all over him. Yes, he makes the roster, no questions asked.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 03:56 PM
  #39
LEIFey
Context Matters!
 
LEIFey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 7,432
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to LEIFey
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I like how only two other people on here (besides myself) believe that Picard is going to make the team. I don't get why people think he won't make the team. He played 68 games last season, he had 21 points, played over 18 minutes a night, and didn't look that bad until the last 15 games of the season. I'm willing to bet that he steps it up this year and increases his production by 19 points. The guy has 40 points written all over him. Yes, he makes the roster, no questions asked.

i hope picard makes the team, but who's spot in the top6 is he going to take? hatcher's? with timonen, smith, hatcher, kukkonen, gauthier and coburn comprising our defense, who do we lose for picard? im hoping gauthier, but i have a sick feeling that if he could have been moved earlier, he would have been moved already. in an ideal world, we can dump gauthier and umberger and bring in forsberg and picard.

LEIFey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 05:08 PM
  #40
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I like how only two other people on here (besides myself) believe that Picard is going to make the team. I don't get why people think he won't make the team. He played 68 games last season, he had 21 points, played over 18 minutes a night, and didn't look that bad until the last 15 games of the season. I'm willing to bet that he steps it up this year and increases his production by 19 points. The guy has 40 points written all over him. Yes, he makes the roster, no questions asked.
<---- make it 3

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 05:51 PM
  #41
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I like how only two other people on here (besides myself) believe that Picard is going to make the team. I don't get why people think he won't make the team. He played 68 games last season, he had 21 points, played over 18 minutes a night, and didn't look that bad until the last 15 games of the season. I'm willing to bet that he steps it up this year and increases his production by 19 points. The guy has 40 points written all over him. Yes, he makes the roster, no questions asked.
someone needs to move in order for Picard to make this club out of camp... which i'm all for them doing. however, until that happens i don't view it as being all that likely... maybe they ditch Jones (there would be no tears here), but i don't like our 7th dman situation contractually then.

as of now Picard is the only real possibility to make the roster who also happens to be on a two-way contract... thus he's easily the most likely to start the year in the AHL, so, yes, there are some questions to be asked.

and 40 pts is probably close to a career high for him, i'd doubt we'd see it next season.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2007, 11:35 PM
  #42
CantSeeColors
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: Seychelles
Posts: 5,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I like how only two other people on here (besides myself) believe that Picard is going to make the team. I don't get why people think he won't make the team. He played 68 games last season, he had 21 points, played over 18 minutes a night, and didn't look that bad until the last 15 games of the season. I'm willing to bet that he steps it up this year and increases his production by 19 points. The guy has 40 points written all over him. Yes, he makes the roster, no questions asked.
I agree he definitely deserves the spot and he's got it in him to score 40 points (though expecting that kind of jump next year is a stretch). Like Jester said, it's just a numbers game.

CantSeeColors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2007, 06:49 AM
  #43
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 116,004
vCash: 580
I am well aware of what Brian Rafalski did, he also didn't set the world on fire in college. You can't look at numbers from Europe and say "yeah, this guy can either produce or he can't." I can find plenty of examples of guys who had bad offensive years in Europe (looking at numbers) and can practically throw them out the window, and pay attention to what the player does on the ice. If you want to skew the numbers based on what each player's role is, that's fine, but don't tell me "because Lasse Kukkonen didn't put up numbers in Finland, he won't do it here."

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2007, 08:02 AM
  #44
LEIFey
Context Matters!
 
LEIFey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 7,432
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to LEIFey
if we can ask peter nedved to be a shutdown center, i think we can ask kukks to be an offensive defenseman, eh?

LEIFey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2007, 08:27 AM
  #45
phlocky
Registered User
 
phlocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I like how only two other people on here (besides myself) believe that Picard is going to make the team. I don't get why people think he won't make the team. He played 68 games last season, he had 21 points, played over 18 minutes a night, and didn't look that bad until the last 15 games of the season. I'm willing to bet that he steps it up this year and increases his production by 19 points. The guy has 40 points written all over him. Yes, he makes the roster, no questions asked.

Picard and Coburn are the only ones of Timonen, Smith, Hatcher, Gauthier, Kukkonen, Jones Picard and Coburn who are on 2-way contracts. Unless you plan on carrying 8 dmen on the roster full time one has to be sent back down or get traded. Hatcher could probably clear waivers but if we need to call him up he'd be claimed by another team and we'd be responsible for 1/2 his salary. Gauthier and Jones most likely wouldn't clear waivers, somebody would claim them and we'd loose them for nothing. That really brings the coice down to Coburn or Picard, so who would you pick??? Even if they were to move Jones it's unlikely Picard would see a lot of game time as he'd most likely be the 7th dman. It's better to keep him on the Phantoms where he can get game time, let Jones waste away as the 7th dman getting very little ice time, and wait to trade Gauthier so that picard can then be brought in as the 6th dman where he'll see a regular shift and around 15 mins a game.

phlocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2007, 09:28 AM
  #46
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I am well aware of what Brian Rafalski did, he also didn't set the world on fire in college. You can't look at numbers from Europe and say "yeah, this guy can either produce or he can't." I can find plenty of examples of guys who had bad offensive years in Europe (looking at numbers) and can practically throw them out the window, and pay attention to what the player does on the ice. If you want to skew the numbers based on what each player's role is, that's fine, but don't tell me "because Lasse Kukkonen didn't put up numbers in Finland, he won't do it here."
Brian Rafalski at Wisconsin:
Year 1: 38GP 3G 16A 19P
Year 2: 32GP 0G 13A 13P
Year 3: 37GP 6G 17A 23P
Year 4: 43GP 11G 34A 45P

a PPG defenseman in college his senior year...

who the hell is skewing numbers? you're just ignoring them and saying we can't extrapolate anything from them because you don't like what they're saying. i'm skewing nothing... i'm just looking at them and seeing a player who hasn't produced a ton of offense. sure, pay attention to what a guy does on the ice. Kukkonen doesn't play with very much risk at all (a necessary component to being a 'very offensive' defenseman in most cases), makes safe passes out of the zone, and plays a stronger defensive game... thus his good turnover ratio and blocks.

so, sure... ignore what a guy does in other leagues... ignore how that relates to what other players do in the same exact league. to say production outside of the NHL, or the lack of it doesn't matter is asinine. you look at it in context with the league and other players in the league.

and Kukkonen will do what he will do... but an educated guess is that he's not going be a 'very offensive' player, and shouldn't be counted on for great offensive production for this club next year. he's probably not going to get to 30 pts... but he's going to provide strong defense and all that jazz.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2007, 04:07 PM
  #47
Antenna13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country:
Posts: 83
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
and Kukkonen will do what he will do... but an educated guess is that he's not going be a 'very offensive' player, and shouldn't be counted on for great offensive production for this club next year. he's probably not going to get to 30 pts... but he's going to provide strong defense and all that jazz.
I'd say Kukkonen probably won't be too offensive, but he does have some tools for it. Look at stats from 00-03 for both with Kärpät. They stepped up from the local junior team and first left for NA pretty much at the same time, talented Pitkänen being two years younger along the way of course.

Pitkänen
105gp 39pts +5

Kukkonen
158gp 32pts +53

The thing with Kukkonen imo isn't being uncapable to produce offensively, but his dedication to team effort and own-end-first kind of game. He became the captain of Kärpät (a then emerging powerhouse) when he was 20. He played great two-way game in Finland, but it so seems that his role in the NHL will be close to his own net. And that is sort of fine, since imo his offence isn't worse than his defense, but defense equal to his is harder to find. But still, you'd get offense (points) from him if a coach so decided.

Antenna13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2007, 05:30 PM
  #48
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusseli View Post
I'd say Kukkonen probably won't be too offensive, but he does have some tools for it. Look at stats from 00-03 for both with Kärpät. They stepped up from the local junior team and first left for NA pretty much at the same time, talented Pitkänen being two years younger along the way of course.

Pitkänen
105gp 39pts +5

Kukkonen
158gp 32pts +53

The thing with Kukkonen imo isn't being uncapable to produce offensively, but his dedication to team effort and own-end-first kind of game. He became the captain of Kärpät (a then emerging powerhouse) when he was 20. He played great two-way game in Finland, but it so seems that his role in the NHL will be close to his own net. And that is sort of fine, since imo his offence isn't worse than his defense, but defense equal to his is harder to find. But still, you'd get offense (points) from him if a coach so decided.
this i think is the largest point against him developing some offensive game... he's EXTREMELY conscious that he has his own net behind him, and doesn't take the risks to get him the goals. Scott Niedermeyer has the skill-set to score 70+ pts a year throughout his career if he'd just started carrying the puck and playing with a bit more risk in his game... he sacrificed offense in order to be a better defensive player.

Kukkonen is much the same, except with not even half the offensive skill of Nieds. nor should that be construed as a knock against him, i'm expecting him to be an extremely strong part of our club the next few years... but not on the offensive side.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2007, 10:14 AM
  #49
Antenna13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country:
Posts: 83
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
nor should that be construed as a knock against him, i'm expecting him to be an extremely strong part of our club the next few years... but not on the offensive side.
I'm sure you're right about this. I was more figuring that if he went utterly mad and switched his game to all-offense, he wouldn't look lost at it.

Antenna13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2007, 11:27 AM
  #50
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusseli View Post
I'm sure you're right about this. I was more figuring that if he went utterly mad and switched his game to all-offense, he wouldn't look lost at it.
he wouldn't. he skates well, makes smart passes with the puck (thus his low-turnover rate), etc., but turning that into serious offensive production isn't quite as easy as some would have it... as you're giving something up in the other direction... which people tend to forget with most 'offensive' defenseman. it's hard to be a competent defender while providing serious offense in the other direction.

we will clearly see more offense from him than we did last year (zero points), but getting up into high point totals is asking too much, IMO.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.