I used the entire county in which Vegas is located and using that county alone there is enough population to support a team. Anything else is just bonus.
I don't know if Houston would end up being a good hockey city. But it is simply not right to write it off because it's a southern city.
Partly I would because 1) Houston is far different then Dallas condition wise (who in there right mind wants to live in a smoggy, humid city? though I think they would be good if they moved out of the city and had to commute, which is another problem) 2) as I said it could end up being another Florida problem (Florida is smaller I'll give you that) or Nashville problem 3) Why are we talking about expansion when we can't even support the teams we have?
The biggest problem on relocating or moving a team to Houston is you have to look at what it took to get the Stars really going here in Texas. They had a good financial base, they had good players, they had a owner who semi-cared about the team, and it was one of the smaller moves into the South.
At that time you had:
Florida Panthers
Tampa Bay Lightning
San Jose Sharks
Anaheim Mighty Ducks
Los Angeles Kings
Now:
Nashville Predators
Florida Panthers
Tampa Bay Lightning
San Jose Sharks
Anaheim Mighty Ducks
Phoenix Coyotes
Atlanta Thrashers
Carolina Hurricanes
Out of those teams, I've heard arguments on contracting some of them, so why move another team to the South? Dallas is a unique situation.
Last edited by thestonedkoala: 01-07-2004 at 11:49 AM.
Partly I would because 1) Houston is far different then Dallas condition wise (who in there right mind wants to live in a smoggy, humid city? though I think they would be good if they moved out of the city and had to commute, which is another problem) 2) as I said it could end up being another Florida problem (Florida is smaller I'll give you that) or Nashville problem .
First of all, the 'conditions' of a city are completely irrelevent. St. Louis is just as humid and probably as smoggy as Houston. It gets to the point here in the summers where you walk outside and literally grasp for air because it's so humid. The point is that weather conditions have nothing to do with how successful a team is in a city.
Obviously it COULD end up being another Florida or Nashville problem. Or, it COULD end up being another San Jose or Dallas.
Was bored during a meeting, and I came to the popular conclusion of Winnipeg and Quebec. Got so bored that I thought of how to realign the divisions from 6 to 8.
Pacific: Anaheim, Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Jose - Geographically makes the most sense.
I would be extremely pissed if they went to 8 divisions. The best rivalries developed with the 4 division system where the first two rounds of the playoffs were divisional... 1st plays 4th, 2nd plays 3rd.
Unfortunately, that's probably what Bettman would do just to conform with the direction the other sports are going.
I would be extremely pissed if they went to 8 divisions. The best rivalries developed with the 4 division system where the first two rounds of the playoffs were divisional... 1st plays 4th, 2nd plays 3rd.
Unfortunately, that's probably what Bettman would do just to conform with the direction the other sports are going.
Ah, I guess I'm like Bettman and naturally assumed 8 divisions of 4. Let me take a crack at 4 divisions of 8. Hrm....gonna replace Winnipeg with Hartford......
Division A:
Anaheim
Calgary
Colorado
Edmonton
Los Angeles
Phoenix
San Jose
Vancouver
Division B:
Atlanta
Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Detroit
Minnesota
Nashville
St. Louis
Divsion C:
Boston
Buffalo
Hartford
Montreal
Ottawa
Quebec
Pittsburgh
Toronto
Division D:
Carolina
Florida
New Jersey
NY Islanders
NY Rangers
Philadelphia
Tampa Bay
Washington
I used the entire county in which Vegas is located and using that county alone there is enough population to support a team. Anything else is just bonus.
I guess we could argue this back and forth. But plenty of new franchises in every sport have gone up in the past ten years and none are in Las Vegas. I don't see it being a top candidate for a major sports team.
I guess we could argue this back and forth. But plenty of new franchises in every sport have gone up in the past ten years and none are in Las Vegas. I don't see it being a top candidate for a major sports team.
I would have agreed with you a few years ago, but Las Vegas is one of the fastest growing cities in the country and your concern about the lack of suburbs really is not applicable any longer.
First of all... remember when reading these that my intentions are to bring back what the NHL was in the early 90's and that means keeping teams in the divisions that they were in then. The only team that was moved was Tampa Bay from the Norris to the Adams. Then, the other teams were filled in using location.
Norris
Chicago
Detroit
Toronto
St. Louis
Minnesota
Nashville
Dallas
Colorado
Smyth
Vancouver
Calgary
Los Angeles
Winnipeg
Edmonton
San Jose
Phoenix
Anaheim
Adams
Boston
Quebec
Montreal
Buffalo
Carolina
Ottawa
Tampa Bay
Florida
Patrick
Pittsburgh
Washington
New Jersey
NY Islanders
Philly
NY Rangers
Atlanta
Columbus
I guess we could argue this back and forth. But plenty of new franchises in every sport have gone up in the past ten years and none are in Las Vegas. I don't see it being a top candidate for a major sports team.
The problem here is that hockey is not a MAJOR sport... In fact far from it...It is a fringe sport in USA... I think Veas could support a team, not based on locals but tourists... It would turn into an attraction in combination with a casino...
But really if the NHL were to expand (and I think we can all agree they will not) It will be to Portland/Houston or perhaps New Orleans...
Realisticaly though if the NHL does grow I believe it will be outside the USA And Canada... Most likely Euporean divisions of some kind...
In my lifetime (and I am in my 30s) I will not see the NHL in Quebec City or Winnipeg again... or any other Canadian city for that matter... Infact I believe if there are 4 Canadian teams in 5 years Canada will be lucky...
It is all nice "pie in the sky" to think Canada is part of any type of expansion but it is not going to happen...
Degroat, keep givin' it to the haters! There are 2-3 contraction threads a week people, you can post in one of those.
Anyway, a month or two ago someone posted a study of some sort that named what cities would be most viable for hockey expansion. Orlando was way up there for some reason, believe it or not. Once the search works again I'll try to find it.
Degroat, keep givin' it to the haters! There are 2-3 contraction threads a week people, you can post in one of those.
Hmm... it's not too often that one gets permission from a mod to go after people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotnos
Anyway, a month or two ago someone posted a study of some sort that named what cities would be most viable for hockey expansion. Orlando was way up there for some reason, believe it or not. Once the search works again I'll try to find it.
I vaguely remember that story and I vaguely remember thinking that someone was on crack. I just couldn't see that happening with Orlando being so close to Tampa. I know of quite a few season ticket holders here in St. Louis that drive the distance between those two cities to get to Blues games.
Perhaps a better idea would be Tampa marketing more to Orlando, maybe even working out some plan for season ticket holders where they'd do a bus to and from every game.
The problem here is that hockey is not a MAJOR sport... In fact far from it...It is a fringe sport in USA... I think Veas could support a team, not based on locals but tourists... It would turn into an attraction in combination with a casino...
Completely agree. As much as we hate to admit it, hockey IS a niche sport. It's behind the NFL, MLB, NBA, and even NASCAR. If Vegas ever gets a franchise, it won't be in hockey. It shouldn't be hockey.
First of all, hockey IS a major sport in the United States. It's got quite a few sports ahead of it, but it is most certainly a major sport. If it wasn't, teams would be playing in 10,000 seat arenas and players would be lucky to make $100K.
That said, whether or not anyone thinks that hockey is a major sport in the United States is irrelevent to this conversation. It obviously has no effect on whether or not American cities can support a team as many cities have no problem supporting their team.
The only reason why it was even brought up was because kickinghorse has this need to insult America for not being as big of a hockey country as Canada. I've seen him do it in more than one thread.
First of all, hockey IS a major sport in the United States. It's got quite a few sports ahead of it, but it is most certainly a major sport. If it wasn't, teams would be playing in 10,000 seat arenas and players would be lucky to make $100K.
That said, whether or not anyone thinks that hockey is a major sport in the United States is irrelevent to this conversation. It obviously has no effect on whether or not American cities can support a team as many cities have no problem supporting their team.
The only reason why it was even brought up was because kickinghorse has this need to insult America for not being as big of a hockey country as Canada. I've seen him do it in more than one thread.
Well I guess it depends on what your definition of major sport... I can name 10 sports that are more popular in USA then hockey... (College Basketball, College Football, NBA, NFL, Nascar (and all its subgroups), MLB, Horse Racing, Golf, Figure Skating, Tennis and really, high school football and high school basketball gets more play on the the sports stations (Espn and talk radio) then does hockey)...Turn on American sports talk and all those sports as well as poker and track and field get more airplay then does hockey... Look at the ratings... Hockey in my opinion is not a major sport in USA... All those sports listed get as many fans to the games or more then does hockey as well as more TV coverage... But apparently that is irrerlevent to this conversation so that is fine....(as well there are a few cities where hockey is being played that would be just barely selling out with a 10k seat arena)
I dont really see where you get this infomation where I have been "insulting" America for not being as big of hockey fans as Canada...In fact quite the oppisite... I have stated before that if cities cannot support the teams they have they should leave... (Canadian or American)...
There are cities that the NHL is very popular in the USA but not one American city would hockey be considered the #1 or even the #5 sport...(Detroit is probably the strongest hockey city in USA yet Wolverine basketball and football as well as the Lions and the Tigers are much, much bigger)...However, outside of cities where the NHL has teams (especially in the south) I think you would have a hard time finding many people who can name 3 hockey players, (yet they would be able to name people from those other sports I mentioned)...This is not an "insult" to America instead it is a truth...
I spent 9 years at university in Califorina and if it were not for the hope of a fight people would not watch hockey, but they would watch any football or basketball game on no matter who was playing...
The point and question of this thread was to choose 2 cities (if the NHL were to expand , (which I can think we can agree that they will not) would expand to... If I had to choose North American cities it would be Portland or Houston, with possibilities to Vegas or New Orleans... (Vegas to me would work because it would be blended with a casino to make a kind of specitacle)...
But like I said earlier that if the NHL is to expand I believe it would be to Europe with a European league/division of some kind....
First of all, hockey IS a major sport in the United States. It's got quite a few sports ahead of it, but it is most certainly a major sport. If it wasn't, teams would be playing in 10,000 seat arenas and players would be lucky to make $100K.
It's the least of the major sports though. I think the league really needs to take a look at where they are in the big picture of things.
It's unfortunate that you base your entire opinion on ratings because the reality of it is ratings are an extremely poor indicator of how popular a sport is.
People watch something because it matters to them. Because they have some sort of emotional investment in it.
Because of this, even being a huge hockey fan, I won't go out of my way to watch a Wings vs. Avs game even though it has an effect on my team... at least not at this point in the season. Later in the season, probably.
I'm also a huge football fan. In the 2nd week of the season, I would go out of my way to watch a 49ers vs. Falcons game.
Why is that? Because the 49ers game has more of an effect on my favorite team. Their losing that one game in a football season is like the Wings losing over 5 straight.
Now, take NASCAR. It's on once a week. That certainly helps their ratings. Do you think they'd be high if they were on 7 days a week? No. Now, factor in the fact that at every single race everyone's favorite driver is participating.
Horse racing... 3 significant events a year. Every horse racing fan is going to watch. How big do you think hockey's ratings would be if the only games of the year were three games between USA and Canada. It would absolutey blow away every sport on there.
Hockey in the US is far from what it is in Canada but it doesn't need to be #1. There are 300 Million people in this country and it doesn't need to be even close to #1 for the NHL to be successful.
It's unfortunate that you base your entire opinion on ratings because the reality of it is ratings are an extremely poor indicator of how popular a sport is.
People watch something because it matters to them. Because they have some sort of emotional investment in it.
Because of this, even being a huge hockey fan, I won't go out of my way to watch a Wings vs. Avs game even though it has an effect on my team... at least not at this point in the season. Later in the season, probably.
I'm also a huge football fan. In the 2nd week of the season, I would go out of my way to watch a 49ers vs. Falcons game.
Why is that? Because the 49ers game has more of an effect on my favorite team. Their losing that one game in a football season is like the Wings losing over 5 straight.
Now, take NASCAR. It's on once a week. That certainly helps their ratings. Do you think they'd be high if they were on 7 days a week? No. Now, factor in the fact that at every single race everyone's favorite driver is participating.
Horse racing... 3 significant events a year. Every horse racing fan is going to watch. How big do you think hockey's ratings would be if the only games of the year were three games between USA and Canada. It would absolutey blow away every sport on there.
Hockey in the US is far from what it is in Canada but it doesn't need to be #1. There are 300 Million people in this country and it doesn't need to be even close to #1 for the NHL to be successful.
I think we agree in some sense but still take horse racing as an example... You and I think there are 3 or 4 big horse racing event per year but all those tracks around the country are not full becouse of those... they are full in every city that has a track...Same with all those other sports... lower level hockey is not like that...
Hoceky in Vegas IMO would work because some big casino would build a rink and use it for a specticale...
And you are right hockey does not have to be #1 to be successful (it is successfull in many markets) but I will stand by my staement that it is not a major sport in the USA... (I will give you a few cities (2 or 3), but overall no)
The problem also is that breaking even I dont think is good enough... And too many cities in both the USA and Canada are apparently just breaking even... Breaking even is not success....
Let's talk about those 2 or 3 cities that you're willing to admit that hockey is a major sport in.
Even though I'd like to think it is, St. Louis isn't one of the best 3 hockey cities in the US. Boston is better. Detroit is better. Philly is better. NY is probably better. St. Louis would probably fall soon after.
So, based on what you're saying, hockey isnt a major sport in a city where they average over 19,000 people per game.
Well Boston has turned into a fickle hockey city and they dont really come close to selling out any longer... NY is not exactly the ticket it once was (tickets are not too hard to get)... Ill give you the other cities you listed however, in each and every city listed there are 4 or 5 or more tickets that are bigger demands...
And, you need to be a bigger then barely/if top 10/20 in cities and maybe top 5 in less then half a dozen to be considered a major sport in USA...
I love hockey and you love hockey but as it stands right now it is a fringe sport in America...(Not an insult to America just the way it is)...
There's no way horse racing is bigger than hockey...even if the tracks seem to draw a lot of people...they are gamblers, not fans. The NHL isn't the biggest league and never will be, but with ~10x the population in the US, it doesn't need to be. Vegas would be interesting...besides being a quickly growing city, there will always be tourists there ready to drop some money for entertainment, along with complimentary tickets for big spenders, I think Vegas could be a good city.
There are 2-3 contraction threads a week people, you can post in one of those. 
