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01-09-2004, 01:46 AM
  #76
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
It's unfortunate that you base your entire opinion on ratings because the reality of it is ratings are an extremely poor indicator of how popular a sport is.

People watch something because it matters to them. Because they have some sort of emotional investment in it.

Because of this, even being a huge hockey fan, I won't go out of my way to watch a Wings vs. Avs game even though it has an effect on my team... at least not at this point in the season. Later in the season, probably.

I'm also a huge football fan. In the 2nd week of the season, I would go out of my way to watch a 49ers vs. Falcons game.

Why is that? Because the 49ers game has more of an effect on my favorite team. Their losing that one game in a football season is like the Wings losing over 5 straight.

Now, take NASCAR. It's on once a week. That certainly helps their ratings. Do you think they'd be high if they were on 7 days a week? No. Now, factor in the fact that at every single race everyone's favorite driver is participating.

Horse racing... 3 significant events a year. Every horse racing fan is going to watch. How big do you think hockey's ratings would be if the only games of the year were three games between USA and Canada. It would absolutey blow away every sport on there.

Hockey in the US is far from what it is in Canada but it doesn't need to be #1. There are 300 Million people in this country and it doesn't need to be even close to #1 for the NHL to be successful.
I completely agree with you. There's way more competition from other forms of entertainments/sports in the US anyways. No need to aim at shares that are similar to Canada. Hockey can be viable without those in the US.

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01-09-2004, 03:37 AM
  #77
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Winnipeg. Just Winnipeg.

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Old
01-09-2004, 06:50 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinghorse
Well I guess it depends on what your definition of major sport... I can name 10 sports that are more popular in USA then hockey... (College Basketball, College Football, NBA, NFL, Nascar (and all its subgroups), MLB, Horse Racing, Golf, Figure Skating, Tennis and really, high school football and high school basketball gets more play on the the sports stations (Espn and talk radio) then does hockey)...Turn on American sports talk and all those sports as well as poker and track and field get more airplay then does hockey... Look at the ratings... Hockey in my opinion is not a major sport in USA... All those sports listed get as many fans to the games or more then does hockey as well as more TV coverage... But apparently that is irrerlevent to this conversation so that is fine....(as well there are a few cities where hockey is being played that would be just barely selling out with a 10k seat arena)

I dont really see where you get this infomation where I have been "insulting" America for not being as big of hockey fans as Canada...In fact quite the oppisite... I have stated before that if cities cannot support the teams they have they should leave... (Canadian or American)...


There are cities that the NHL is very popular in the USA but not one American city would hockey be considered the #1 or even the #5 sport...(Detroit is probably the strongest hockey city in USA yet Wolverine basketball and football as well as the Lions and the Tigers are much, much bigger)...However, outside of cities where the NHL has teams (especially in the south) I think you would have a hard time finding many people who can name 3 hockey players, (yet they would be able to name people from those other sports I mentioned)...This is not an "insult" to America instead it is a truth...

I spent 9 years at university in Califorina and if it were not for the hope of a fight people would not watch hockey, but they would watch any football or basketball game on no matter who was playing...

The point and question of this thread was to choose 2 cities (if the NHL were to expand , (which I can think we can agree that they will not) would expand to... If I had to choose North American cities it would be Portland or Houston, with possibilities to Vegas or New Orleans... (Vegas to me would work because it would be blended with a casino to make a kind of specitacle)...

But like I said earlier that if the NHL is to expand I believe it would be to Europe with a European league/division of some kind....
I would have to strongly disagree that Hockey is #1 or #2 in Detroit. For one, U of M plays in Ann Arbor which is 40 miles away. U of Detroit college basketball in Detroit would be just as big as U of M. The Pistons and Lions only recently even moved back into the city in the past 5 years (typically, if your huge fan base in there you do not move 20-30 miles outside of town for the past 20 years) and the Tigers flat out beg people to come to games. They even have had free ticket nights last year. As a person who actually lived and worked near these cities I find it hard to imagine someone saying the Wings were like the 10th biggest draw in the town. On top of all this is the fact that the Tigers/Red Wing owner spends more in team payroll on his hockey team. I think you far underrate the US Hockey fan.

If you want to argue that a greater percentage of Canadiens give a crap about NHL hockey then maybe I would agree but in total numbers that like NHL hockey i think would be debatable.

I think in US viewership i would place NHL Hockey 5th, its really close to PGA if Tiger Woods is playing but behind NFL, MLB, NBA and Nascar. College football, College Basketball, Figure skating, Tennis, and horse racing (this one was way off). I would say are behind it. College Football is another damn close but these are harder to gauge since they play so many fewer games than the NHL.

Lastly, to be in accordance with the thread i would like to see Quebec and hartford have teams again whether they can support them is another matter.


D

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Old
01-09-2004, 07:14 PM
  #79
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Quebec City and Hartford. Or SLC and Vegas.

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01-09-2004, 08:12 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
Does anyone know who were the finalist that didn't get a team at the most recent expansion?
Okay, St. Paul, Columbus, Atlanta, and Nashville were all announced together, right? The question is how many didn't get one. Maybe just two, possibly more...... a little hazy, but maybe......Portland, Houston, Oklahoma City, Hampton Roads, VA. The only one I'm fairly certain about is Oklahoma.

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01-09-2004, 08:16 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sushinsky4tsar
Okay, St. Paul, Columbus, Atlanta, and Nashville were all announced together, right? The question is how many didn't get one. Maybe just two, possibly more...... a little hazy, but maybe......Portland, Houston, Oklahoma City, Hampton Roads, VA. The only one I'm fairly certain about is Oklahoma.
Hampton Roads....THAT'S the one finalist I can never remember.

As I mentioned earlier, Oklahoma City, Portland, and Houston (bids from two different ownership groups) were definitely in the final cut.

Thanks for the pick-up!

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01-09-2004, 08:17 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkrause1971
I would have to strongly disagree that Hockey is #1 or #2 in Detroit. For one, U of M plays in Ann Arbor which is 40 miles away. U of Detroit college basketball in Detroit would be just as big as U of M. The Pistons and Lions only recently even moved back into the city in the past 5 years (typically, if your huge fan base in there you do not move 20-30 miles outside of town for the past 20 years) and the Tigers flat out beg people to come to games. They even have had free ticket nights last year. As a person who actually lived and worked near these cities I find it hard to imagine someone saying the Wings were like the 10th biggest draw in the town. On top of all this is the fact that the Tigers/Red Wing owner spends more in team payroll on his hockey team. I think you far underrate the US Hockey fan.

If you want to argue that a greater percentage of Canadiens give a crap about NHL hockey then maybe I would agree but in total numbers that like NHL hockey i think would be debatable.

I think in US viewership i would place NHL Hockey 5th, its really close to PGA if Tiger Woods is playing but behind NFL, MLB, NBA and Nascar. College football, College Basketball, Figure skating, Tennis, and horse racing (this one was way off). I would say are behind it. College Football is another damn close but these are harder to gauge since they play so many fewer games than the NHL.

Lastly, to be in accordance with the thread i would like to see Quebec and hartford have teams again whether they can support them is another matter.


D
Well i think you look at the numbers and you can come to the conclusion you are looking for... Never did I say that the Wings are only 10th bggest draw in town... but I did say that they would be lucky to be the 5th biggest draw in town... ( and they are the prolly biggest hockey town in USA)
( Wolverinve BBall, football, piston BBall, Lions Football as well as Tiger Baseball, mind you the tigers suck so their drawing power is quite depleted...) (And that is not to metion the Mich state Spartans college teams who are also a bigger draw)...And that is just the local sports never mind golf or Nascar...

College sports in USA are bigger then pro sport - except perhaps football but it is close...How many BILLIONS did CBS pay for NCAA college bball tourney?

I have a hard time believing a sport is a "major" sport if it barely in the top 10...

I know it sounds insulting but figure skating is a bigger draw then hockey...

And as far as people paying big money to go see hockey, I would argue that there is not many people (average people) spending that money... I dont have numbers but I would bet that over 75% of the seats for a hockey game are sold to corporations who give them out to clients as a righttoff....

What I am saying is how deep do you have to go to say soemthing is a major sport or not... I think once you get past 6 or 7 you are not a major sport... perhaps a mediocre sport but definitly not major...


Anyhow like you said... this thread is about what cities would be best for a expansion and I will stick with Prtland/Houston/LV/NO... But I will repeat once again that before a NA expansion there will be a Europe division....

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Old
01-09-2004, 08:31 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
Oklahoma City and Houston---Houston had submitted bids from two separate ownership groups, I believe.

I want to say that there were two other cities who made it to the final cut---Portland and a second, western city---but I can't remember for sure.

Columbus got the CBJ, so I'm happy.

Whoops. Better memory than mine. I don't know what that other Western team would be though. Pretty sure it's not Seattle, Salt Lake, Vegas, or any of the more obvious markets already w/ pro sports.

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01-09-2004, 08:50 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sushinsky4tsar
Whoops. Better memory than mine. I don't know what that other Western team would be though. Pretty sure it's not Seattle, Salt Lake, Vegas, or any of the more obvious markets already w/ pro sports.
Nope, I think you're correct.

I recall that when the four expansion cities were announced, there were four others that were in the running, but didn't get teams.

Hampton Roads is the one that I could never remember.

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01-09-2004, 09:23 PM
  #85
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Ignore that last post, I think we got 'em. Hamilton I'm unsure of though. I seem to recall they were definitely in on the Ottawa-Tampa-Miami-Anaheim expansion though.

As far as my thoughts on prospective markets:


CANADA
Saskatoon, Regina, Halifax: Not nearly big enough in every dynamic of "big", even if deserving.

Winnipeg: New arena. If some incredible changes occur in the CBA; I think you could possibly make in arguement for it being able to eke by. I'm rooting for this to happen, but I'm not crossing my fingers. I'll make this arguement as insignificant as it might be. As far as tv ratings go I think some of these small Canadian cities could actually help the game. Watching the Wild on tv this year as they played in Florida. I felt almost shamed into turning off the tv. What am I doing watching hockey on tv when I can see other people won't even attend a game in person. Can't we let urban youth into these kinds of arenas to at least give the place some atmosphere? On the other hand I find games easier to watch when we're on the road in Van, Edm, Tor, Mtl where you sense a real buzz about the game. A cozy 15,000 seat Wpg arena is no exception.........More of an observation than anything I guess..

Hamilton, Mississauga, Laval: Has there been any talk of building new arenas outside of these elite hockey markets? Is there anyway an NHL team would allow it. Personally, I say spread it out even if it's viable.

Quebec City: Isn't this just the Winnipeg arguement minus a new arena. Or is there something new since the Nordiques left?


UNITED STATES:

Seattle or Portland: I think it's definitely Portland because of current arena and geography. I don't know what Rose is like as an ice arena, but I can only assume it would be leaps and bounds ahead of Seattle. It' also further from Vancouver and infringe less on any Seattle 'nuck faithful. Are there many?

Las Vegas: I have no doubt that it could work. I just think basketball or football would make more sense in that town if it was to only have one sport though. Has there been any talk of renovating/replacing Thomas & Mack?

Houston: I think this would be the frontrunner along w/ Portland in the U.S. for the next NHL market. Brand-new arena. I doubt they could come close to matching Dallas. But if we're going to stack Houston against Winnipegs and Hartfords I just don't see it losing out. I think the difference in corporate support is just too large. Too bad. Poor attendence in the AHL, but so was St. Paul w/ the Moose after the Stars left MN. I would put Houston in the #1 spot for likelyhood.

Oklahoma City: I think Nashville and Raleigh have probably killed the chances of this happening. Large enough if it was in a hockey market. Probably not large enough to warrant the risk outside of it.

Hartford: Any talk of a new arena? They tried to get the Pats. Why not bring back the Whale? I'd love to see it. I don't knwo how likely it is though.

Norfolk/Hampton Roads, VA: Largest w/o pro-sports I believe. No arena though. Other sports make more sense.

Jacksonville/ San Antonio: New arenas but I don't think they can support 2. At least w/ the second being hockey.

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Old
01-10-2004, 03:54 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
I guess we could argue this back and forth. But plenty of new franchises in every sport have gone up in the past ten years and none are in Las Vegas. I don't see it being a top candidate for a major sports team.
Teams have not gone to Vegas because they fear the Pete Rose Factor. Since Vegas is Gambling Nirvana, leagues are hesitant to move there due to the potential for improprieties.

As far as expansion goes, I would obviously take Hartford and either Milwaukee or Houston (great hockey history in terms of fan support going back to the WHA). Maybe Kansas City or Salt Lake as backup choices.
If we were adding Canadian teams, Winnipeg and Quebec. Are there enough people in Regina to make that realistic?

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01-10-2004, 04:19 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinghorse
Well i think you look at the numbers and you can come to the conclusion you are looking for... Never did I say that the Wings are only 10th bggest draw in town... but I did say that they would be lucky to be the 5th biggest draw in town... ( and they are the prolly biggest hockey town in USA)
( Wolverinve BBall, football, piston BBall, Lions Football as well as Tiger Baseball, mind you the tigers suck so their drawing power is quite depleted...) (And that is not to metion the Mich state Spartans college teams who are also a bigger draw)...And that is just the local sports never mind golf or Nascar...

College sports in USA are bigger then pro sport - except perhaps football but it is close...How many BILLIONS did CBS pay for NCAA college bball tourney?

I have a hard time believing a sport is a "major" sport if it barely in the top 10...

I know it sounds insulting but figure skating is a bigger draw then hockey...

And as far as people paying big money to go see hockey, I would argue that there is not many people (average people) spending that money... I dont have numbers but I would bet that over 75% of the seats for a hockey game are sold to corporations who give them out to clients as a righttoff....

What I am saying is how deep do you have to go to say soemthing is a major sport or not... I think once you get past 6 or 7 you are not a major sport... perhaps a mediocre sport but definitly not major...


Anyhow like you said... this thread is about what cities would be best for a expansion and I will stick with Prtland/Houston/LV/NO... But I will repeat once again that before a NA expansion there will be a Europe division....
There is one important thing you have to keep in mind when ranking sports and their popularity: the number of games/events.
NFL and NCAA Football are huge in part to the fact that pros play 16 games and college plays 11. Each game is a huge event and is critical in the big picture. College B-Ball is a 30-odd game regular season, but the real numbers come out for March Madness, which is 4-5 games/team. As someone else said earlier, their are a handful of horse races that matter, so of course they will draw. Most people don't watch horse racing for the love of the sport; they watch it because they can bet on it. NASCAR is a weekend thing through most of the summer that's extremely popluar in places without baseball teams. Not to say that's the only reason why people like NASCAR, but in much of the deep south and midwest, there are very few major league sports options during that time of year. Figure skating is, well, figure skating. It's also more of an occasional thing compared to most other sports.
The long-winded point I'm trying to make is that the NHL (and NBA and MLB) are simply long seasons. Even some avid hockey fans don't get too fired up about games in Nov or Dec. When comparing the length of schedule to other sports and events, the NHL can't come close. When the playoffs start, MLB has just begun and interest in the new season is high. The problem why the NHL is not considered a major sport by some can be argued that the season is long. Since hockey is a "winter" sport, perhaps if the season did not leach into mid-June more people would be interested. Having to compete with baseball, NBA playoffs and spring/early summer in general does not help ratings. Most people around here will not sit inside and watch a hockey game in late May when they can be doing something outside like playing golf, yardwork, beach, whatever.

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01-10-2004, 05:58 AM
  #88
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San Antonio has the same problem with America West Arena. SBC Center is strictly built for basketball. If hockey was there, there would be a lot of seats obsured with the overhang. San Antonio won't be getting a NHL team anytime soon.

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01-10-2004, 08:43 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
edited for space
You forgot another big rating getter: golf.

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01-10-2004, 09:19 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac1212
San Antonio has the same problem with America West Arena. SBC Center is strictly built for basketball. If hockey was there, there would be a lot of seats obsured with the overhang. San Antonio won't be getting a NHL team anytime soon.
I would guess Conseco in Indianapolis would have the same problem. As far as others.......

Milwaukee: A fair amount of interest in the sport. Not realistic because: 1) proximity to a Chicago team that is struggling in attendence 2) Bradley is a sub-par arena in this day and age. Might be pushing the entertainment dollar too.

Kansas City: I'll give them this, no NBA team, so I think it makes a little more sense than Milwaukee. But, I would also cite their arena as the reason why it's not realistic. It's also a Chiefs town, I don't think it's large enough to develop that same kind of passion you see in St. Louis. Also it might be a little close to their fan base.

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01-10-2004, 10:57 AM
  #91
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Winnipeg and Portland, Oregon

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01-10-2004, 12:17 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Dandenault
the Vegas team since they would obviously be called the Gamblers.
I'm sure this has been mentioned later in the thread (I haven't finished reading it), but...

...All I can envision is a team called the Gamblers playing the trap. Talk about a misnomer...

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01-10-2004, 12:18 PM
  #93
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Cleveland and Baltimore

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01-10-2004, 01:14 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
There is one important thing you have to keep in mind when ranking sports and their popularity: the number of games/events.
NFL and NCAA Football are huge in part to the fact that pros play 16 games and college plays 11. Each game is a huge event and is critical in the big picture. College B-Ball is a 30-odd game regular season, but the real numbers come out for March Madness, which is 4-5 games/team. As someone else said earlier, their are a handful of horse races that matter, so of course they will draw. Most people don't watch horse racing for the love of the sport; they watch it because they can bet on it. NASCAR is a weekend thing through most of the summer that's extremely popluar in places without baseball teams. Not to say that's the only reason why people like NASCAR, but in much of the deep south and midwest, there are very few major league sports options during that time of year. Figure skating is, well, figure skating. It's also more of an occasional thing compared to most other sports.
The long-winded point I'm trying to make is that the NHL (and NBA and MLB) are simply long seasons. Even some avid hockey fans don't get too fired up about games in Nov or Dec. When comparing the length of schedule to other sports and events, the NHL can't come close. When the playoffs start, MLB has just begun and interest in the new season is high. The problem why the NHL is not considered a major sport by some can be argued that the season is long. Since hockey is a "winter" sport, perhaps if the season did not leach into mid-June more people would be interested. Having to compete with baseball, NBA playoffs and spring/early summer in general does not help ratings. Most people around here will not sit inside and watch a hockey game in late May when they can be doing something outside like playing golf, yardwork, beach, whatever.
I like this post...but, just because a sport has a longer scheduale NHL longer than NFL does not make the games less important... Try to tell that to the team that lost to a last place team in december and missed the playoffs by 2 points that that game didnt matter... That is the problem... To us (the fan) that game does not matter, as well it does not matter to ESPN or any other major sport networks... Where if the Yankees lose a couple games in June to the Tigers it is thought of a possibly a disater for the team... Just because one team plays 16 games and another played 82 it is irrelevent... Every game matters and will decide where you end after the season... A good team no matter how few games are played are gonna make the playoffs and a bad team will miss and a average team will need to battle each and every game...

Attendiance figures are relative as well--- Wolverine football gets 110k~? per game hocket gets 20~k? per game... At the end of the day the attendence is pretty close over the cousre of a season...

(away from you post now but to the other argument)---

The major games in hockey do not even get televised in USA on a major network...How is that a major sport? The major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX) televise a couple finals games and what? 10 regular season game? (ABC now I think) The heritage classic (prolly the biggest game in the sport this year does not get a television spot...) , The junior tourney with USA in final no where to be found on USA TV... When the hiesman trophy is announced it is lead story, when the #1 NHL draft pick is selected I would doubt it even makes ESPN... Remember I am talking about the USA considering hockey a major sport here, and ESPN is THE sports network...And yes I would choose TV as a barometer of what is considered major or not...If a sport can not get on TV, on one of the major networks consitently, then I would not consider that sport very important to the country...


In golf, tennis there are 4 majors, there are 4 major networks, there are 3 medals in Olympics etc.. If you are not in top 4 and to be generous top 6 you are not major anything...Hockey in USA is fighting to be top 10...

One last thing... I am not saying hockey cannot be succesful in USA because it is in many markets; but it is, after all is looked at, still not a major sport (or entertainment item) in America...

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01-10-2004, 01:23 PM
  #95
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I completely agree with you. There's way more competition from other forms of entertainments/sports in the US anyways. No need to aim at shares that are similar to Canada. Hockey can be viable without those in the US.
Disagree here... You are right to say hockey does not have to have the numbers in the USA that it does in Canada to be succesful but it cannot, and is not succesful without some kind of support from south of the border...Look no farther then the percieved problems of many teams...To survive the NHL need the USA market and right now they dont have it...

For NHL to be a truley succesful sport in USA it needs to break into and steal away people from the other forms of entertainment...(have the populations dollar spent on hockey rather then some other form of entertainment) Otherwise we are looking at a stagnant or shrinking sport like we have now...

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01-10-2004, 02:01 PM
  #96
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The way I look at it, potential NHL cities can be broken into 2 groups: Either ready-to-go now or the next 2 yrs, and then there are markets that could pull it off, but only if they built a new arena: Here's all the cities that I feel have at least some prayer if there was expansion (although a move is much more likely):

Arena Ready
1. Houston
2. Portland
3. Winnipeg

Purely Markets (ignoring current arena)

1. Houston
2. Portland
3. Hartford
4. Winnipeg
5. Quebec
6. Las Vegas (could easily move up, I just think this is the wrong sport)
7. Milwaukee.
8. Seattle

I suppose I coud throw Austin, OKC, Norfolk, and Salt Lake City into the mix too. But I really don't feel these offer anything more attractive than current cities already w/ teams such as Nashville or Raleigh. Three through eight on the list are probably pipe dreams in themself.

Since I didn't include cities like Hamilton. Here's my rankings for cities to expand into already w/ an NHL team (I don't advocate, just for fun)

1. TOR- Hamilton, Mississauga
2. MTL- Laval?
3. DET- Auburn HIlls
4. CHI- Rosemount
5. SJ- San Francisco
6. PHI- Philly???
7. MIN- MInneapolis
8. BOS- Providence, SE NH

What the heck, Europe too:

1. Frankfurt
2. Berlin
3. Moscow
4. Stockholm
5. St. Pete
6. Helsinki
7. Prague


Last edited by sushinsky4tsar: 01-10-2004 at 02:17 PM.
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01-11-2004, 02:26 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinghorse
Hockey in USA is fighting to be top 10.
No, it's not. And you saying this just makes it obvious that you don't live here. The ONLY thing that even comes close to supporting your claims is the ratings and even those prove you wrong. You're not an expert on hockey in the United States so quit trying to present yourself as one.

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01-11-2004, 02:28 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sushinsky4tsar
Kansas City: I'll give them this, no NBA team, so I think it makes a little more sense than Milwaukee. But, I would also cite their arena as the reason why it's not realistic. It's also a Chiefs town, I don't think it's large enough to develop that same kind of passion you see in St. Louis. Also it might be a little close to their fan base.
Nah.. it wouldn't effect the Blues' fan base. Kansas City and St. Louis don't particularly like each other... you'll only find a few Blues fans in St. Louis and most of those are transplanted St. Louisans.

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01-11-2004, 02:32 PM
  #99
Dr Love
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinghorse
The major games in hockey do not even get televised in USA on a major network...How is that a major sport? The major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX) televise a couple finals games and what? 10 regular season game?
ESPN, which is in nearly all households, shows at least one game a week. ABC does as well starting yesterday.

Quote:
The heritage classic (prolly the biggest game in the sport this year does not get a television spot...)
This has already been addressed on these boards countless times. The game was not shown because ESPN and ABC, who have the rights to the NHL, were contractually bound to broadcast college football. If you want to blame anyone, blame the league and the Oilers for scheduling the game when they did.

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Old
01-11-2004, 04:18 PM
  #100
Belamorte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
No, it's not. And you saying this just makes it obvious that you don't live here. The ONLY thing that even comes close to supporting your claims is the ratings and even those prove you wrong. You're not an expert on hockey in the United States so quit trying to present yourself as one.

No I do not live in the USA but I did for 9 years, 1x PhD at Fresno State Univerisity and 1x PhD at UC Davis... and only left USA 2 years ago, so I do think I have some insight into hockey in America as well as Americas attitude towards the game... That said the ratings do not prove me wrong... bowling, figure skating and worlds strongest man get higher ratings...

Am I thinking or trying to say I am an expert of anything? no... But I can have an opinion, too bad because you dont agree with it you dismiss it with personal attacks rather then any argument...

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