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Alfie vs Sundin

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Old
09-06-2007, 10:56 AM
  #126
Jennifer 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I see that I'm not the only person underwhelmed by that comprehensive list of "achievements".
I didn't bother to read it.

I know what I see with my own 2 eyes - Alfie has a nice list of accomplishments too I'm sure but what I judge him on is what I see when he's on the ice.

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09-06-2007, 10:59 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jennifer 19 View Post
I didn't bother to read it.

I know what I see with my own 2 eyes - Alfie has a nice list of accomplishments too I'm sure but what I judge him on is what I see when he's on the ice.
I was going to try and make a compelling argument for Sundin. He did turn Hoglund into a player that scored 29 goals. But then I think, Alfredsson made White a 60 point player.

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09-06-2007, 11:26 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Brycios View Post
I would too, but that's because 1- Sundin is a Leaf and 2- after what Alfie did this last season for the Sens, I couldn't bare to see him anywhere else.

However, I think that Sundin in his prime was better than Alfredsson is right now.
It creates an itneresting debate.

What is Sundin's peak year(s), and, does it compare to what Alfie has done, post-lockout?

Alfie's achievements in that time frame:
-Had a dominant playoffs, being the best player on his team that went to the Stanley Cup Finals. He lead the playoffs in goals scored, and tied for most points.
-Had a sup-par playoffs the year prior, but, still put up a point a game.
-Was on the second all-star team in 2005-06, and finished top 5 in Hart trophy voting, and 4th in Selke voting in that year.
-He finished top 5 in points, and top 10 in goals in 2005-06.
-In 2006-07, in a down year offensively for him, due to a poor start, he still finished 15th in overall scoring, and second for plus/minus.


Sundin:
It's really hard to pin point a period of time where you can point to as being Sundin's peak years. His best seasons offensively were early in his career, where he wasn't the complete player he is today, and was more of a function of a higher scoring era (didn't make the top 10 in scoring that year). I think when most people think of Sundin at his peak, it's during his years as an all-around player, when he's been the captain of his team.

His best years, in terms of official NHL achievements are the years where he got on the second all-star team (2004, 2002). 2002 was probably the one closer to his peak, where he had a better all-around season, IMO. He was top 5 in scoring that year, and got some votes in Hart trophy voting.

His best playoffs are from 1999. It's one of the years where you can legimately say that he had little in the way of linemates to work with, where they were really a team made up of great goaltending, and Sundin up front, and took his team to the conference finals. A very good playoffs, but, still falls behind Alfie's performance from this past year.

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09-06-2007, 11:40 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu View Post
It creates an itneresting debate.

What is Sundin's peak year(s), and, does it compare to what Alfie has done, post-lockout?

Alfie's achievements in that time frame:
-Had a dominant playoffs, being the best player on his team that went to the Stanley Cup Finals. He lead the playoffs in goals scored, and tied for most points.
-Had a sup-par playoffs the year prior, but, still put up a point a game.
-Was on the second all-star team in 2005-06, and finished top 5 in Hart trophy voting, and 4th in Selke voting in that year.
-He finished top 5 in points, and top 10 in goals in 2005-06.
-In 2006-07, in a down year offensively for him, due to a poor start, he still finished 15th in overall scoring, and second for plus/minus.


Sundin:
It's really hard to pin point a period of time where you can point to as being Sundin's peak years. His best seasons offensively were early in his career, where he wasn't the complete player he is today, and was more of a function of a higher scoring era (didn't make the top 10 in scoring that year). I think when most people think of Sundin at his peak, it's during his years as an all-around player, when he's been the captain of his team.

His best years, in terms of official NHL achievements are the years where he got on the second all-star team (2004, 2002). 2002 was probably the one closer to his peak, where he had a better all-around season, IMO. He was top 5 in scoring that year, and got some votes in Hart trophy voting.

His best playoffs are from 1999. It's one of the years where you can legimately say that he had little in the way of linemates to work with, where they were really a team made up of great goaltending, and Sundin up front, and took his team to the conference finals. A very good playoffs, but, still falls behind Alfie's performance from this past year.
Ask yourself this question, if Sundin had line mates of Speeza's and Heatley's caliber to play with during the 1999 Leafs playoffs run, would Sundin be able to attain more then 16 points in 17 games? Considering Sundin was playing alongside a 35 year old Steve Thomas and Lonny ****in Bohonas during that playoff run.

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Old
09-06-2007, 11:42 AM
  #130
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I would probably say Sundins peak was from 98-99 to 02-03

- Those five seasons he only missed 16 games.
- Scored 30+ goals four times including a 41 goal season and 37 goal season.
- Consistent 70-80 point player during the strentch and solid in the defensive end.
- 55 playoff games 20 goals 58 points


I'll say Alfredssons best has been from 01-02 to present

- Missed 23 games during five seasons
- Three time 30 goal scorer just missing last season (has a 37 and 41 goal season)
- Good for a little over a PPG but had a monster 103 point season last year.
- Seen as one of the best two-way players in the world.
- 67 playoff games 28 goals 56 points
- Carried the Sens to the cup finals

I'd take Alfredsson at his peak.

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Old
09-06-2007, 11:48 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeroy Jenkins View Post
Ask yourself this question, if Sundin had line mates of Speeza's and Heatley's caliber to play with during the 1999 Leafs playoffs run, would Sundin be able to attain more then 16 points in 17 games? Considering Sundin was playing alongside a 35 year old Steve Thomas and Lonny ****in Bohonas during that playoff run.
We shouldn't have to ask that question, because, it isn't like Sundin never got those opportunties down the line. The years where he had Mogilny, Roberts and Nolan on his wing, he didn't perform better.

That ends up being the flaw to the whole "Sundin never had the linemates" issue. He's had great linemates in the past. He just didn't take his game to another level. Alfie had some decent runs with crap linemates as well. He had 13 points in 12 games in 2002 with Todd White as his centre. But, because he made the most of his opportunity playing with great linemates this year, we don't have to ask "what if" as much.

Heck, in some of those years where Alfie was playing great along side poor linemates, the "what if" that I often ask is, what would Alfie's success had been if he was lucky enough to get the goaltending that Sundin got on his teams during those years.

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09-06-2007, 11:56 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by discostu View Post
We shouldn't have to ask that question, because, it isn't like Sundin never got those opportunties down the line. The years where he had Mogilny, Roberts and Nolan on his wing, he didn't perform better.

That ends up being the flaw to the whole "Sundin never had the linemates" issue. He's had great linemates in the past. He just didn't take his game to another level. Alfie had some decent runs with crap linemates as well. He had 13 points in 12 games in 2002 with Todd White as his centre. But, because he made the most of his opportunity playing with great linemates this year, we don't have to ask "what if" as much.

Heck, in some of those years where Alfie was playing great along side poor linemates, the "what if" that I often ask is, what would Alfie's success had been if he was lucky enough to get the goaltending that Sundin got on his teams during those years.
Are you honestly comparing those three guys to Spezza and Heatley.

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09-06-2007, 11:58 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Leeroy Jenkins View Post
Are you honestly comparing those three guys to Spezza and Heatley.
Leafs picked Mogilny up after a 40 goal season.

Roberts is a playoff legend from what I hear.

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09-06-2007, 11:59 AM
  #134
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Alfredsson sucks because he plays on a team that gives him good teammates. Poor Mats.

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Old
09-06-2007, 12:05 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Leeroy Jenkins View Post
Are you honestly comparing those three guys to Spezza and Heatley.
Are you comparing Patrick Lalime to Curtis Joseph and Ed Belfour?

You get what you get, and players have to make the most of the opportunities given to them. There isn't a need to make statements like "Can you imagine what Sundin would have done if he had linemates better than Lanny Bohonos", when, there are plenty of years when he did.

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09-06-2007, 12:21 PM
  #136
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I hate to repeat myself a million times over, but people are clearly overlooking the fact that Alfredsson makes his linemates better. He turned Kelly into a 140 point player and #1 centre. His example turned Heatley from a reliable but one-dimensional player into the best player in the league in January.

If Alfredsson was playing with Antropov or Ponikarovsky, I guarantee we would not be *****ing about his poor linemates, but glowing about how he managed to turn such average players into legitimate threats. You can't say the same thing about Sundin, because he doesn't do it.

Alfredsson's ability to make everyone around him better, from Smolinski to Spezza, is one of his greatest attributes.

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09-06-2007, 12:26 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by moz View Post
I hate to repeat myself a million times over, but people are clearly overlooking the fact that Alfredsson makes his linemates better. He turned Kelly into a 140 point player and #1 centre. His example turned Heatley from a reliable but one-dimensional player into the best player in the league in January.

If Alfredsson was playing with Antropov or Ponikarovsky, I guarantee we would not be *****ing about his poor linemates, but glowing about how he managed to turn such average players into legitimate threats. You can't say the same thing about Sundin, because he doesn't do it.

Alfredsson's ability to make everyone around him better, from Smolinski to Spezza, is one of his greatest attributes.
It's also worth adding, that making other superstar players better is not as easy as it seems. People seem to think that if you have a star player, who does well with average players, that they will automatically do better with star players. It doesn't always work like that, as some players require too much puck possession, or, require very specific chemistry, to be effective.

For Alfie, he is one of the most versatile players I've seen. He changes his role as he's needed to do so. If the line requires more playmaking, he'll make the passes. If it requires more point shots, he'll man the point. If it requires traffic in front of the net, he'll go to the net. If it requires someone to do the board work, he'll do the board work. If it requires someone to be the first one back on D, he'll get his ass back on D.

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09-06-2007, 12:33 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
I would probably say Sundins peak was from 98-99 to 02-03

- Those five seasons he only missed 16 games.
- Scored 30+ goals four times including a 41 goal season and 37 goal season.
- Consistent 70-80 point player during the strentch and solid in the defensive end.
- 55 playoff games 20 goals 58 points


I'll say Alfredssons best has been from 01-02 to present

- Missed 23 games during five seasons
- Three time 30 goal scorer just missing last season (has a 37 and 41 goal season)
- Good for a little over a PPG but had a monster 103 point season last year.
- Seen as one of the best two-way players in the world.
- 67 playoff games 28 goals 56 points
- Carried the Sens to the cup finals

I'd take Alfredsson at his peak.
I'm not a fan of comparing the offensive stats between these two. They play different styles of hockey and, as has been made clear, often play on different calibers of lines. I like to think about what kind of impact either player makes on any given game. This makes it harder to compare. I always think of the old Sundin as being a huge physical presence on the ice that would carry his team when they needed it. As for Alfredsson, I don't think I need to write down what kind of impact he made in this last season and playoff on these boards. I think it's very debatable.

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09-06-2007, 01:02 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by moz View Post
I hate to repeat myself a million times over, but people are clearly overlooking the fact that Alfredsson makes his linemates better. He turned Kelly into a 140 point player and #1 centre. His example turned Heatley from a reliable but one-dimensional player into the best player in the league in January.

If Alfredsson was playing with Antropov or Ponikarovsky, I guarantee we would not be *****ing about his poor linemates, but glowing about how he managed to turn such average players into legitimate threats. You can't say the same thing about Sundin, because he doesn't do it.

Alfredsson's ability to make everyone around him better, from Smolinski to Spezza, is one of his greatest attributes.
Great post. I agree with this one the most, and I actually never looked at it like that. He makes it look real easy....

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09-06-2007, 03:07 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Leafs picked Mogilny up after a 40 goal season.

Roberts is a playoff legend from what I hear.
Sundin never played more than 5 games with Almo

I don't see that problem in saying Sundin has the better career but Alfi is the better player now...

I would have liked to have seen Sundin with some good players in his prime but non the less, he's done well holding the team on his back...

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09-06-2007, 03:08 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Brandi View Post
Great post. I agree with this one the most, and I actually never looked at it like that. He makes it look real easy....
Sundin never *****ed about anything...

and he made some many players in to 20-30 goals scorers and 60 point plus players, who are not even close

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09-06-2007, 03:50 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by joepeps View Post
Sundin never *****ed about anything...

and he made some many players in to 20-30 goals scorers and 60 point plus players, who are not even close
Who said Sundin ever *****ed about anything?

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09-06-2007, 05:28 PM
  #143
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my bad I read it wrong... you meant the fans *****ing about his linemates

sorry

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