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Who is the greatest goal scorer to ever play?

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Old
09-06-2007, 10:06 AM
  #76
Wondercarrot
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I love how often people look for a way to marginalize Gretzky's numbers but seemingly have no problem finding reasons why lesser players numbers seem better than they are.
its absurd.

Gretzky gets penalized for playing a longtime despite having a GGP avg of .82 during his first 10 years of play.
Mike Bossy's incredible scoring prowess cannot be denied yet he doesnt even come close at .69 over his 10 year career.
Gretzky AVERAGES more than 10 goals more per year than Bossy over the exact same measure of their careers. (which happens to be the ENTIRE length of Bossy's carrer).

However since Gretzky played for another decade where Bossy didnt somehow Bossy becomes the better goal scorer???????
So Gretzky gets penalized for being durable and being able to continue scoring goals while Bossy sits in a recovery ward unable to score more goals, somehow that makes Bossy better.
its laughable.


Last edited by Wondercarrot: 09-06-2007 at 10:24 AM.
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Old
09-06-2007, 11:46 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
I love how often people look for a way to marginalize Gretzky's numbers but seemingly have no problem finding reasons why lesser players numbers seem better than they are.
its absurd.

Gretzky gets penalized for playing a longtime despite having a GGP avg of .82 during his first 10 years of play.
Mike Bossy's incredible scoring prowess cannot be denied yet he doesnt even come close at .69 over his 10 year career.
Gretzky AVERAGES more than 10 goals more per year than Bossy over the exact same measure of their careers. (which happens to be the ENTIRE length of Bossy's carrer).

However since Gretzky played for another decade where Bossy didnt somehow Bossy becomes the better goal scorer???????
So Gretzky gets penalized for being durable and being able to continue scoring goals while Bossy sits in a recovery ward unable to score more goals, somehow that makes Bossy better.
its laughable.
No, it's just that many people consider Bossy a better pure goal scorer then Wayne. And so do I.


I'm surprised no one has mentioned Brett Hull?

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09-06-2007, 12:36 PM
  #78
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It IS pretty strange that Gretzky smoked Bossy in goal scoring during the 9 years they shared together and yet Bossy is somehow considered the better goal scorer. Bossy scored more goals than Gretzky in just TWO of those years.

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09-06-2007, 01:00 PM
  #79
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Bossy or Pavel Bure.

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09-06-2007, 02:31 PM
  #80
Wondercarrot
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No, it's just that many people consider Bossy a better pure goal scorer then Wayne. And so do I.
Based on what? obviously not their respective ability to score goals.

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Old
09-06-2007, 02:53 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
I love how often people look for a way to marginalize Gretzky's numbers but seemingly have no problem finding reasons why lesser players numbers seem better than they are.
its absurd.

Gretzky gets penalized for playing a longtime despite having a GGP avg of .82 during his first 10 years of play.
Mike Bossy's incredible scoring prowess cannot be denied yet he doesnt even come close at .69 over his 10 year career.
Gretzky AVERAGES more than 10 goals more per year than Bossy over the exact same measure of their careers. (which happens to be the ENTIRE length of Bossy's carrer).

However since Gretzky played for another decade where Bossy didnt somehow Bossy becomes the better goal scorer???????
So Gretzky gets penalized for being durable and being able to continue scoring goals while Bossy sits in a recovery ward unable to score more goals, somehow that makes Bossy better.
its laughable.
for some reason being a one trick pony helps in these types of arguments sometimes.

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Old
09-06-2007, 02:55 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
You need to do some research. Start with the stats from 1950 through 1954.
Answer my question. Would you say that if Gordie Howe played against people like lemieux,gretzky,bossy,richard ,hull all in their prime that he would have more goals then they would? I understand that era thing he was the best in his but that still cant compare to people like lemieux,gretzky,bossy,richard ,hull.

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09-06-2007, 03:00 PM
  #83
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i have no problem in people thinking that bossy was the best PURE goal scorer, or Lemieux or Burefor that matter. However it really doesn't matter because Gretzky isn't a PURE goal scorer.

He's had the best career and has been the best player in his era and arguably ever. He holds that title, and it's because he wasn't just a PURE goalscorer...he had any more intangebles than that.

It's like arguing about who the best guitar player is....it's all a matter of oppinion, however the only solid proof is in the best season(s) and gretzky not only has scored more goals than anyone, but he's scored the most goals as well....Gretzky is smart enough to know that he can't score every goal, so playing with players who could score he decided to pass that puck so he could control the game more than anyone could scoring all the goals themselves.

It's as if his achievements aren't even valued because of all the cups he won with the oilers and the great players he played with....which is laughable

Mario was amazing too...and in many ways just as good or even better than Gretzky...but you can't fault Gretzky because of the players he played with...because even with Jagr Lemieux didn't put more in the net or score more points

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Old
09-06-2007, 03:03 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slade View Post
for some reason being a one trick pony helps in these types of arguments sometimes.
Are you calling Bossy a one trick pony?

The greatest goal scorer is also the greatest player to ever grace the ice; Wayne Gretzky.

People keep saying IF this and IF that concerning #66 but guess what, what happened DID happen and no one can change that. Gretzky is, and was the better player.

Now concerning best pure goal scorer its got to be Bossy. Highlight the word pure guys.

And someone said Lemieux did it all himself? You call Jagr, Kovalev, Francis..etc no one?

What Ovechkin had over the last 2 seasons was no one. What Lemieux had was lots.

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09-06-2007, 03:08 PM
  #85
slade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
Are you calling Bossy a one trick pony?

The greatest goal scorer is also the greatest player to ever grace the ice; Wayne Gretzky.

People keep saying IF this and IF that concerning #66 but guess what, what happened DID happen and no one can change that. Gretzky is, and was the better player.

Now concerning best pure goal scorer its got to be Bossy. Highlight the word pure guys.

And someone said Lemieux did it all himself? You call Jagr, Kovalev, Francis..etc no one?

What Ovechkin had over the last 2 seasons was no one. What Lemieux had was lots.
Precisely.

The word "pure" to me in this case means...he was the best goal scorer that couldnt do much else. i would say ovechkin is the best pure goalscorer now becuase of his lack of playmaking abilities.

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09-06-2007, 03:13 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
Are you calling Bossy a one trick pony?

The greatest goal scorer is also the greatest player to ever grace the ice; Wayne Gretzky.

People keep saying IF this and IF that concerning #66 but guess what, what happened DID happen and no one can change that. Gretzky is, and was the better player.

Now concerning best pure goal scorer its got to be Bossy. Highlight the word pure guys.

And someone said Lemieux did it all himself? You call Jagr, Kovalev, Francis..etc no one?

What Ovechkin had over the last 2 seasons was no one. What Lemieux had was lots.

No he didnt lemieux did it with a lot less then Ovechkin. Lemieux didnt have Jagr, Francis. until 1990-1991 and only played with kovy for 2 seasons. AO has 98 goals in his first season and lemieux had 91 in 152 games and AO had 98 in 163. Which is the same gpg at.60.

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09-06-2007, 03:18 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
Based on what? obviously not their respective ability to score goals.
Based on Bossy's ability to find the back of the net when he shot the puck. As mentioned, Bossy's was a better pure goal scorer then Wayne.

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09-06-2007, 03:24 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mpm26 View Post
When I started the topic I didnt think people would pick someone that played 99 nhl games. I also never said "greatest nhl goal scorer" so maybe I meant someone that played street hockey or roller hockey. I assumed that "ever" meant over a career not during WWI that noone has ever seen play, has no video, and no one knows who he played against .
Might just be me, but "ever" usually means "ever" and not "as far as I remember" or "since I started watching hockey."

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09-06-2007, 03:28 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Clarence Beeks View Post
Might just be me, but "ever" usually means "ever" and not "as far as I remember" or "since I started watching hockey."
So do you think he would outscore lemieux bossy etc? No one would be able to answer that so you really can compare them.

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09-06-2007, 03:35 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by mpm26 View Post
So do you think he would outscore lemieux bossy etc? No one would be able to answer that so you really can compare them.
That's the problem that you have in any sport when you are comparing players from different eras who never played against each other or the same competition. Why do you think this is essentially the eternal debate in each and every sport?

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09-06-2007, 03:39 PM
  #91
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it's gotta be Brett Hull

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09-06-2007, 04:28 PM
  #92
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Neely in 93-94.

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09-06-2007, 04:37 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
I love how often people look for a way to marginalize Gretzky's numbers but seemingly have no problem finding reasons why lesser players numbers seem better than they are.
its absurd.

Gretzky gets penalized for playing a longtime despite having a GGP avg of .82 during his first 10 years of play.
Mike Bossy's incredible scoring prowess cannot be denied yet he doesnt even come close at .69 over his 10 year career.
Gretzky AVERAGES more than 10 goals more per year than Bossy over the exact same measure of their careers. (which happens to be the ENTIRE length of Bossy's carrer).

However since Gretzky played for another decade where Bossy didnt somehow Bossy becomes the better goal scorer???????
So Gretzky gets penalized for being durable and being able to continue scoring goals while Bossy sits in a recovery ward unable to score more goals, somehow that makes Bossy better.
its laughable.
The only laughable part is your case. Gretzky played in the no defense wide open west against weak competition while Bossy got banged around every night against better teams defense. If Gretzky played in the east it wouldn't even be close.

THE BOSS

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09-06-2007, 04:46 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by mpm26 View Post
So do you think he would outscore lemieux bossy etc? No one would be able to answer that so you really can compare them.
Well, according the some genius's on this site, no player pre-1995 could play in the NHL today or would at best be average. So apparently AO is the greatest goal scorer of alltime.

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09-06-2007, 04:56 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by RUSqueelin View Post
Well, according the some genius's on this site, no player pre-1995 could play in the NHL today or would at best be average. So apparently AO is the greatest goal scorer of alltime.
I was referring Newsy Lalonde. No one saw him play or the competion he was against.

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09-06-2007, 04:56 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpm26 View Post
Answer my question. Would you say that if Gordie Howe played against people like lemieux,gretzky,bossy,richard ,hull all in their prime that he would have more goals then they would? I understand that era thing he was the best in his but that still cant compare to people like lemieux,gretzky,bossy,richard ,hull.
Actually, Howe did play against Richard, Hull and Beliveau all in their prime and he did score more goals than they did on several occasions.

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09-06-2007, 05:06 PM
  #97
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FWIW, the players who have led the NHL in goals the most seasons:

1. Bobby Hull 7
2. Phil Esposito 6
3. Charlie Conacher 5
3. Gordie Howe 5
3. Maurice Richard 5
3. Wayne Gretzky 5
7. Babe Dye 3
7. Bill Cook 3
7. Mario Lemieux 3
7. Brett Hull 3
7. Teemu Selanne 3
7. Pavel Bure 3

Very surprising that Bossy and Stewart each only did it twice. Howe and Gretzky did it a lot for a couple of guys who are taking a ridiculous amount of flak in this thread.

Could it be that Gretzky's talents as a playmaker are overshadowing what he did as a goalscorer. If instead of 894 goals and 1963 assists, he had 894 goals and only 400 assists, would that make him appear to be a better goalscorer?

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09-06-2007, 05:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, Howe did play against Richard, Hull and Beliveau all in their prime and he did score more goals than they did on several occasions.
He did score more a few times but rocket wasnt in his prime anymore. Richard even outscored him in his 11 season in the league with 37 to howe 33. In 1959-60 hull outscored howe 39 to 28. He was a consistent goal scorer but not dominant like hull or richard. You keep saying how hard to was to score in that era yet richard got 50 in 50 and hull 50 in 70. Something howe never did.

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Old
09-06-2007, 06:32 PM
  #99
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I was referring Newsy Lalonde. No one saw him play or the competion he was against.
You are questioning if Howe was a good enough goal scorer because he never played against some other players you listed. It's the same premise.

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Old
09-06-2007, 06:48 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by mpm26 View Post
Answer my question. Would you say that if Gordie Howe played against people like lemieux,gretzky,bossy,richard ,hull all in their prime that he would have more goals then they would? I understand that era thing he was the best in his but that still cant compare to people like lemieux,gretzky,bossy,richard ,hull.
Why can't Howe compare to Richard if Howe routinely outscored him while they were both in the league together?

1950: Richard leads by 8 goals
1951: Howe leads by 1 goal
1952: Howe leads by 20 goals
1953: Howe leads by 21 goals
1954: Richard leads by 4 goals
1955: Richard leads by 9 goals
1956: tied
1957: Howe leads by 11 goals

Overall it's close, but Howe leads Richard by 32 goals during that time period. I'll stop the comparison in 1957 because Richard is clearly a shadow of his former self from 1958 to retirement, and Howe easily outscores him each year.

I personally don't think that Howe would outscore Lemieux, Gretzky or Hull if they were all in their primes together. However, he could outscore Bossy and Richard. Also, Howe was also an elite goal-scorer for a longer period than any of the five players mentioned.

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