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Hearing set for Sundin - UPDATE: Sundin gets 1 game suspension

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01-07-2004, 01:54 PM
  #51
Vlad The Impaler
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I'm in the middle on this one. I like the one-game suspension just fine! It's appropriate under the circumstances.

What Gaborik used to do is irrelevant. This was a broken stick, thrown wildy in the crowd. He COULD have hurt someone and in this day and age of suing, the NHL is just being smart here.

Next time, big Mats can just grab a regular good old wooden stick instead of those pieces of crap he uses if he is so upset about them breaking.

Sundin is not a bad guy. He just made a mistake and a one game suspension is just right under the circumstances. No more, no less.

PS: Yes, the refs should have done something during the game. But this is the NHL. Refereeig is a joke anyways.

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01-07-2004, 01:58 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
I just gave two clear cut examples. Trotz should worry about his team and not what the other team does.
Clear cut examples of what? You said it yourself the stick throw should have been a penalty and that the league deemed the Bertuzzi pushoff illegal as well.

I don't see how calling the refs to task on blatent missed calls is whining. Nor do I see how these two incidents (one from last year and one from this year) make the Predators a whiny organization.

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01-07-2004, 02:07 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Sundin is not a bad guy. He just made a mistake and a one game suspension is just right under the circumstances. No more, no less.
Agreed.

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01-07-2004, 02:16 PM
  #54
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SECTION SIX: PLAYING RULES
Rule 41 Abuse of Officials and other Misconduct

(a) A misconduct penalty shall be imposed on any player who uses obscene, profane or abusive language to any person or who intentionally knocks or shoots the puck out of the reach of an Official who is retrieving it or who deliberately throws any equipment out of the playing area.

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01-07-2004, 02:21 PM
  #55
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Dumb thing to do, but not malicious, IMO. Refs missed it, it should have been called, but the suspension seems reasonable.

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01-07-2004, 03:08 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWS
I don't see how calling the refs to task on blatent missed calls is whining.
Because there are missed calls *constantly*. Every player and team in the NHL could spend every waking moment complaining about the refs and calls and they'd technically be correct. And most fans seem to think it's ok too, their team never loses, it's always a rip job from the reffing.

Refs are human, they'll miss calls. It's a fact of life. I'm not a Brad May fan, but I do like his attitude on this. The other day the Canucks lost after what some felt was a bad penalty call. After the game, the reporters pressed Brad about it. His response? "Excuses are for losers".

From what I saw, a one game suspension on Sundin was the correct call.

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01-07-2004, 03:22 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I'm in the middle on this one. I like the one-game suspension just fine! It's appropriate under the circumstances.

What Gaborik used to do is irrelevant. This was a broken stick, thrown wildy in the crowd. He COULD have hurt someone and in this day and age of suing, the NHL is just being smart here.

Next time, big Mats can just grab a regular good old wooden stick instead of those pieces of crap he uses if he is so upset about them breaking.

Sundin is not a bad guy. He just made a mistake and a one game suspension is just right under the circumstances. No more, no less.

PS: Yes, the refs should have done something during the game. But this is the NHL. Refereeig is a joke anyways.
Nice, I agree completely. I think 1 game is perfectly appropriate in this situation.

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01-07-2004, 03:25 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Nice, I agree completely. I think 1 game is perfectly appropriate in this situation.
Hes going to miss a pretty important game though.

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01-07-2004, 03:44 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Last year Barry trotz was crying and caying that Bertuzzi uses a push off move which is interference.

The League later agreed and bertuzzi has not been the same since he was neutralized. You can beat the crap out of him, but heaven forbid Todd trying to establish position.

Now Sundin throws his stick and the Preds again ***** and cry saying it should've been a penalty. And they are right it should've... but it wasn't, and had the Preds won would they have said these things?
What is your point here? The league agreed on both instances that what occured was illegal. If the league messes up, its perfectly alright to call them on it. I'm sorry that your Big Bad Bertuzzi got called for his illegal play, but the fact of the matter is that it is and was illegal. If you have a major penalty like Mats commited last night or a player consistently using illegal moves to gain advantage that are missed by officials, and these plays are then uncontestable, then something is completely wrong in the NHL. Thankfully, the people in charge of the NHL do not view things as you do. Otherwise every problem and missed call that took place, even if it was a constant trend, would go unchanged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
I am all for fair play, but the Predators are becoming the whiniest biotches in the league. If things don't go their way it has to be the other team cheating!!
I could say that you are just bitter about Bertuzzi being called on his interference, and that you are the one that is in fact whining.......But lets not point fingers here. The predators did not whine, nor did they blame last nights loss on the missed Sundin call. If anything, the Preds lost last night b/c they couldn't capitalize on what they were given, and were inexcusably manhandled physically.

Also, please refrain from your vulgarity. Not only is it offensive, it is also against HFBoards rule 1d which states:

d) Any post that circumvents the obscenity filter by using characters in combination with letters. Examples are *****, $hit, ****, F@@@ etc... Putting ALL characters such as @#^@@ is okay though. The obscenity filter is not all inclusive so don't assume that if it's not in the filter, it can't be considered obscene.

I didn't come here to listen to immature posters throw offensive language around for no apparent reason. Thankfully HF agrees with me on this instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigest Canuck Fan
And Smoley Clause... I know more about hockey than you will ever dream about so don't tell me what I do and do not know.
Very debatable considering the posts in this thread.

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01-07-2004, 04:20 PM
  #60
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Clearly a major brain fart on the part of Sundin, but considering he's normally a decent citizen, has a relatively clean record and nobody was hurt, one game is more than enough.

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01-07-2004, 04:59 PM
  #61
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hmmm....i think everything that could possibly be said about this topic has been said

soon this thread will turn into a bunch of little fights as they always do once the topic has been worn out

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01-07-2004, 05:10 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I'm in the middle on this one. I like the one-game suspension just fine! It's appropriate under the circumstances.

What Gaborik used to do is irrelevant. This was a broken stick, thrown wildy in the crowd. He COULD have hurt someone and in this day and age of suing, the NHL is just being smart here.

Next time, big Mats can just grab a regular good old wooden stick instead of those pieces of crap he uses if he is so upset about them breaking.

Sundin is not a bad guy. He just made a mistake and a one game suspension is just right under the circumstances. No more, no less.

PS: Yes, the refs should have done something during the game. But this is the NHL. Refereeig is a joke anyways.
Perfectly put, I just wish he'd thrown it some other game, we need to beat the Sens!

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01-07-2004, 05:29 PM
  #63
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I think his actions warrants more than a one-game suspension. I mean c'mon it was obviously intentional, in the heat of the moment or not.

But i guess the sens will have even a more easier time with the leafs tomorrow night

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01-07-2004, 05:34 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
Another classic example of bad officiating. *I can hear Van coming to defend them as I speak * Sundin should have been booted after the stunt, but instead, he got off scotch free. Then, he set up the two come back goals that won the game for the Mapleleafs. Ah well, I guess after the millionth missed/bad call, I become dead to the stupidity and unawareness of NHL officials.
Yes, the officials missed the call, but the call would have been a 10-minute misconduct, not a Game Misconduct (according to Colin Campbell). Sundin would have been back to set up those goals anyway.

Andy van Hellemond will talk with his referees about the missed call...as he would with any other referee missing any other impact calls. That being said, the fact that the call was missed does not suggest that the referees are incompetent, stupid and unaware. There are 12 players on the ice, they have to watch them all....not just the star player on the ice.

I challenge you next season, to take a clinic and start officiating. Perhaps the education could help you.

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01-07-2004, 05:39 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Yes, the officials missed the call, but the call would have been a 10-minute misconduct, not a Game Misconduct (according to Colin Campbell). Sundin would have been back to set up those goals anyway.

Andy van Hellemond will talk with his referees about the missed call...as he would with any other referee missing any other impact calls. That being said, the fact that the call was missed does not suggest that the referees are incompetent, stupid and unaware. There are 12 players on the ice, they have to watch them all....not just the star player on the ice.

I challenge you next season, to take a clinic and start officiating. Perhaps the education could help you.
Its strange that the officials miss what happens to the guy that just had the puck on his stick....seems like they should have seen that. Moving on, though, what kind of disciplinary action do you think NHL officials recieve Van? I doubt its anything significant as the officiating has still been poor overall since the start of the season. I have always wondered if it is just a slap on the hand.....or some sort of embarrasment tactic. And Van.......I would say that the alot of NHL officials are incompetent, not all but many. Either that, or they do not know the rulebook, as even when they do see an infraction they often do nothing or give less than what the rules call for. This could due to the lack of trained officials/inexperience with the new two man officiating system.......Who knows...


Last edited by Enoch: 01-07-2004 at 05:43 PM.
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01-07-2004, 06:28 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
Its strange that the officials miss what happens to the guy that just had the puck on his stick....seems like they should have seen that.
You have a point. This will be brought up to them by their boss, I guarantee it. It will be a learning experience for the officials...just like the suspension will be a learning experience for Sundin. Both screwed up, and both will get a chance to redeem themselves. If Sundin does this again, I guarantee you he won't get only one game in the pressbox....and if these two officials miss something like this again, they will be in Andy van Hellemond's doghouse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
Moving on, though, what kind of disciplinary action do you think NHL officials recieve Van? I doubt its anything significant as the officiating has still been poor overall since the start of the season. I have always wondered if it is just a slap on the hand.....or some sort of embarrasment tactic.
The system used for players and officials is slightly different. For officials on a two-way contract, they might be assigned to more AHL games than NHL games next month, and if that doesn't help their game, then their contract will likely be terminated following the season.

For officials on NHL-only contracts, they might be assigned to less games the next month, and it will effect how many playoff rounds they get, if any.

I'm not sure if NHL officials get fined or not. I should be able to find out for sure within the next few days. If they do get fined, it won't be near as much as players fines, and it would be my expectation for missing such an impact call.

No matter what the punishment though, it is never public for a couple reasons in particular...

1. The game is about the players. The fans want to hear about the players, and not the officials.

2. Although the officials make more money than the average joe, they don't make enough to be publically raked over the coals by the league that employs them. It's enough that the media does it already. Triple or quadruple the pay, and I'll accept public news on officials' discipline.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
And Van.......I would say that the alot of NHL officials are incompetent, not all but many. Either that, or they do not know the rulebook, as even when they do see an infraction they often do nothing or give less than what the rules call for. This could due to the lack of trained officials/inexperience with the new two man officiating system.......Who knows...
You don't understand how the rulebook is written. For almost every rule, it is written in a way to give the referees power of judgment to decide whether or not what they see fits the description spelled out in the book. I didn't understand this until I started officiating myself, and this is where most fans don't realize that they are simply having a difference of opinion with the referee when they whine about a call or non-call...it is not always the referee making a mistake.

In this particular case, the referees did make a mistake because the rule is a rare "black and white" rule. They didn't call it because they didn't see it, which may or may not be a problem, depending on the feedback Andy van Hellemond gets from his officials as to why they did not see Sundin wildly throwing his stick into the crowd.

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01-07-2004, 06:34 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dats-13
hmmm....i think everything that could possibly be said about this topic has been said

soon this thread will turn into a bunch of little fights as they always do once the topic has been worn out
Which is why I won't respond to Enoch.

Simply put the rule states for that game. The Officials missed it, and if the source is correct it was at the behest of the Nashville coaches, players and management that it even got looked at. From TSN.ca "The Predators were livid that Sundin was not penalized by the game officials. The NHL rules and casebook call for either a 10-minute misconduct or a game misconduct for any player who throws his stick, or any part of it, out of the playing area. The severity of the penalty is at the discretion of the referee."

So I fail to see how my valid points of the Predators whining are construed into misrepresentation.

Bottom line as the rule quoted says, it is during the game, not after the game and I think the League has turned into a huge even up the field league. Campbell went way out of line. If any fine should've been levied, it should've been to the officials who called the game.

How else can the Preds, Wild and the likes compete.

And Enoch, "biotch" is a slang term used on most comedy shows and the like as a goofy slang reference. For you to single me out compared to alot of the other crap on this board speaks volumes about you.

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01-07-2004, 06:39 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Bottom line as the rule quoted says, it is during the game, not after the game and I think the League has turned into a huge even up the field league. Campbell went way out of line. If any fine should've been levied, it should've been to the officials who called the game.
I'm not saying the officials didn't make a mistake, but just because Sundin didn't get a penalty doesn't mean that he didn't commit the crime.

And you don't know if the officials have been or will be fined by the league for their mistake....so that statement is useless.

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01-07-2004, 06:48 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I'm not saying the officials didn't make a mistake, but just because Sundin didn't get a penalty doesn't mean that he didn't commit the crime.

And you don't know if the officials have been or will be fined by the league for their mistake....so that statement is useless.
Clearly Campbell went outside the box though. The call was the officials to make not his. And at the urging and protest of the Preds Campbell took action.

Also if the Officials were fined we as fans have the right to know. They are just as much a part of the game as the players and they should be accountable for their mistakes.

Example the officials who let the clock run in the Seattle Baltimore game when it should've stopped. Those officials were fined heavey because of it. The NHL should stop protecting the officials and make them more accountable.

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01-07-2004, 07:02 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Clearly Campbell went outside the box though. The call was the officials to make not his. And at the urging and protest of the Preds Campbell took action.

Also if the Officials were fined we as fans have the right to know. They are just as much a part of the game as the players and they should be accountable for their mistakes.

Example the officials who let the clock run in the Seattle Baltimore game when it should've stopped. Those officials were fined heavey because of it. The NHL should stop protecting the officials and make them more accountable.
Who is saying the NHL officials are not accountable for their mistakes. Did you read what I posted earlier?

And no, officials are not as much part of the game as the players are. If they were, you would see news headlines about good calls they have made, about contract signings, etc. If you want to have their discipline as public news, you had better be able to tolerate public news on good things the officials do....and a lot of that good news released by the NHL about its officials would be stuff that a lot of fans disagree with. Are you ready to tolerate as much officiating news as player and team news? Even I, as an official, don't want to see that.

I can almost guarantee you that the NFL officials were very upset as a group that the news of their fines were made public. All that was needed was a league statement saying they made a mistake, and the issue was or will be taken care of by the supervisor of officials.....much like Colin Campbell did with this situation. He said there was a problem, and that it is Andy van Hellemond's area.

And yes, Campbell has every right to make this call. He is the league disciplinarian. There doesn't have to be a penalty for him to take action.

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01-07-2004, 07:12 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Who is saying the NHL officials are not accountable for their mistakes. Did you read what I posted earlier?

And no, officials are not as much part of the game as the players are. If they were, you would see news headlines about good calls they have made, about contract signings, etc. If you want to have their discipline as public news, you had better be able to tolerate public news on good things the officials do....and a lot of that good news released by the NHL about its officials would be stuff that a lot of fans disagree with. Are you ready to tolerate as much officiating news as player and team news? Even I, as an official, don't want to see that.

I can almost guarantee you that the NFL officials were very upset as a group that the news of their fines were made public. All that was needed was a league statement saying they made a mistake, and the issue was or will be taken care of by the supervisor of officials.....much like Colin Campbell did with this situation. He said there was a problem, and that it is Andy van Hellemond's area.

And yes, Campbell has every right to make this call. He is the league disciplinarian. There doesn't have to be a penalty for him to take action.
Well we agree to disagree. I am in no way trying to say Sundin did not deserve this. Maybe on blatant fouls the Linesman can make the calls as they do for high sticks.

My major beef though is that the Predators do as much whining as any team. They lost, and they are going to lose alot because they aren't good enough. Doesn't mean the field should be evened up so they have a chance to make the playoffs.

Anyways I think your argument is very valid. I just wish it was Van Helmond who said the ref missed it and it must be taken care of by Campbell.

That and the fact the Penalty is supposed to be for that game. This is not as if Sundin Kneed or elbowed a player.

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01-07-2004, 07:15 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Which is why I won't respond to Enoch.

Simply put the rule states for that game. The Officials missed it, and if the source is correct it was at the behest of the Nashville coaches, players and management that it even got looked at. From TSN.ca "The Predators were livid that Sundin was not penalized by the game officials. The NHL rules and casebook call for either a 10-minute misconduct or a game misconduct for any player who throws his stick, or any part of it, out of the playing area. The severity of the penalty is at the discretion of the referee."

So I fail to see how my valid points of the Predators whining are construed into misrepresentation.
Is it whining when you are mad and point out a missed penalty that the whole world saw, but the officials did not? Absolutely not. This is a major mistake on part of the Cannucks, and it only stands to reason that the Preds would be upset with the non-call. I mean......it was Mats Sundin.....the Captain of the Maple Leafs, who in the end set up the two goals for the comeback win. I'm not saying the Preds lost b/c Sundin wasn't ejected or handed a 10 minute misconduct. I am saying that they have every reason to cause havoc when an obvious and serious foul like this is missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggest Canuck Fan
Bottom line as the rule quoted says, it is during the game, not after the game and I think the League has turned into a huge even up the field league. Campbell went way out of line. If any fine should've been levied, it should've been to the officials who called the game.
It has to be called after the game because it isn't just a matter of an infraction, it is a matter of fan safety. Sundin was the ultimate gentlemen after the infraction occured, but what he did was still wrong. He put the fans at risk with his haphazard play, and could have opened up lawsuits against the league and team. This is why Sundin recieved the suspension. In this perspective, I completely understand the suspension, and a 1-gamer is the least that could have been done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Cannuck Fan
How else can the Preds, Wild and the likes compete.
Fixing missed calls and other players illegal antics helps all teams. It doesn't just help the bottom-feeding teams. Besides, Sundins punishment does absolutely nothing torwards the Preds win column. The original call was blown, and the Predators suffered for it. They didn't benefit in any way by the actions post-game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Cannuck Fan
And Enoch, "biotch" is a slang term used on most comedy shows and the like as a goofy slang reference. For you to single me out compared to alot of the other crap on this board speaks volumes about you.
Slang for a curse word that I am not here to read. I'm here for hockey discussions, not obscenities. Here is the rule, read it carefully. I'm not singling you out. Rather, I am sick of reading vulgarity with no action taking place. You say this: *****, but not what you are doing, which is clearly against the rules.

1d) Any post that circumvents the obscenity filter by using characters in combination with letters. Examples are *****, $hit, ****, F@@@ etc... Putting ALL characters such as @#^@@ is okay though. The obscenity filter is not all inclusive so don't assume that if it's not in the filter, it can't be considered obscene.

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01-07-2004, 07:16 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Anyways I think your argument is very valid. I just wish it was Van Helmond who said the ref missed it and it must be taken care of by Campbell.
This is not the way the NHL works.

If there is a problem with players, it is Colin Campbell's problem to deal with. He cannot discipline officials.

If there is a problem with officials, it is Andy van Hellemond's problem to deal with. He cannot discipline players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
That and the fact the Penalty is supposed to be for that game.
Nobody is denying this. However, there is nothing stating that if Sundin was assessed the appropriate penalty, that he cannot be subject to supplemental discipline. Supplemental discipline can be given for anything for any reason.

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01-08-2004, 04:06 AM
  #74
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Mats, if you're that frustrated with the new sticks breaking all the time, go back to the old style....increasingly you're seeing players very frustrated by these weak sticks breaking on good scoring chances...

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01-08-2004, 04:30 AM
  #75
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Sundin getting called or not getting called didn't help or hurt the Predators either way, and his stick throwing didn't give the other team the advantage, so it didn't hurt the Predators and it's not why we lost the game. We lost the game because we didn't penalty kill well enough, because we missed too many scoring chances. That's not why the Predators are *****ing, they're *****ing because it seems stars get treated different. The Bertuzzi deal last year was different, he was cheating it did help them win, Predators had a right to ***** about it. I also do think we complain a little too much about the officiating but we get tired of hearing how the league sent a letter saying the refs screwed up a call that cost us the game (has happened twice this year and atleast once last year), we struggle enough to win without the refs screwing it up for us, we do good enough at that ourselves. Big Canuck fan, it's not the Predators fault Bert struggles to play within the rules, we're just the ones that pointed it out.

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