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09-15-2007, 07:38 PM
  #1
Fletch
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Another Hossa thread....

but I'm not really here to bash. I'm not a huge fan but do believe that he is useful and can add value. However, after thinking it through further I'm not a fan of him being on a top line. I understand that's where Hossa would perform the best (who wouldn't - Renney saw fit to play Isbister there, which he justified by saying he's good in the corners), but sometimes I think it is about where Hossa would excel most as he has been a favorite of Renney, as opposed to someone like, say Prucha. Renney has his reasons, and that's fine because in the end he has to defend his decisions. But sometimes I think it is about spreading the wealth a bit - which means bringing Straka down to a third line to bring something tho that third line. Personally, I'm all for spreading the weath, but I spread the wealth a different way (i.e., Shanny not playing with Jagr). The top line should have the be a top line. It should have top line players. In no way should that line's talent be diluted to spread the wealth. Straka plays his best with Jagr. Jagr plays his best with Straka. Straka scored nearly 30 goals last season - if Renney thinks he can be as successful on a third line, or nearly as successful, he's sorely mistaken. Straka should be on that top line - that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

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09-15-2007, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
but I'm not really here to bash. I'm not a huge fan but do believe that he is useful and can add value. However, after thinking it through further I'm not a fan of him being on a top line. I understand that's where Hossa would perform the best (who wouldn't - Renney saw fit to play Isbister there, which he justified by saying he's good in the corners), but sometimes I think it is about where Hossa would excel most as he has been a favorite of Renney, as opposed to someone like, say Prucha. Renney has his reasons, and that's fine because in the end he has to defend his decisions. But sometimes I think it is about spreading the wealth a bit - which means bringing Straka down to a third line to bring something tho that third line. Personally, I'm all for spreading the weath, but I spread the wealth a different way (i.e., Shanny not playing with Jagr). The top line should have the be a top line. It should have top line players. In no way should that line's talent be diluted to spread the wealth. Straka plays his best with Jagr. Jagr plays his best with Straka. Straka scored nearly 30 goals last season - if Renney thinks he can be as successful on a third line, or nearly as successful, he's sorely mistaken. Straka should be on that top line - that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I'm with you for the most part, but I do think there has to be concern that a Jagr, Gomez/Drury, Straka line could get outmuscled. My biggest concern is that this line ends up against the Pandolfo/Madden lines of the world because Renney refuses to line match.

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09-15-2007, 07:55 PM
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Why would..

Straka/Gomez/Jagr get outmuscled if Straka/Nylander/Jagr didn't the last two seasons?

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09-15-2007, 08:13 PM
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Straka/Gomez/Jagr get outmuscled if Straka/Nylander/Jagr didn't the last two seasons?
I'd argue that they were sometimes shut down against the likes of Pandolfo and Madden. My point is simply that a line of these three does not offer a physical presence and that led to the desperate placement of Hossa and Isbister on Jagr's line.

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09-15-2007, 09:51 PM
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It doesn't offer a physical presence...

and it really doesn't need to replace Straka with Hossa to have one. Straka is a better all-around player. Having a phyiscal player would be nice, but with Straka on that line, it's still more effective. Jagr was injured for much of last season - his line's ineffectiveness at times was more a result of him not being himself more than anything. He was more dominant in the last third of the season when he looked more like his old self. He will still continue to be shut down by Pandolfo and Madden and a physical winger (meaning Hossa) isn't going to change that because Jagr will still be played tight and therefore will not have the room to create. They're good defensive players, plain and simple.

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09-16-2007, 12:09 AM
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totally agree that straka plays with jagr. what ever numbers hossa puts up with jagr, straka will put up double. my theory is that hossa is an nhl player and should be able to play with other guys besides jagr.

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09-16-2007, 01:46 AM
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hossa.......ok...you guys hit it on the head....just said it wrong....last year, the rangers were mainly a one-line team...shanahan did contribute a little but the jagr-nylander-straka line did most of the scoring, which was fine, however this year, the rangers went out to get gomez and drury to spread out the scoring....it is obvious they want a more balanced attack. with the trade of cullen, there is no real experienced player to play on that line besides straka or avery, because obviously drury, gomez, jagr, and shanahan are going to be on the top two lines. therefore, if you put avery and straka on the top two lines as well you are left with a line of hossa-prucha-callahan?....or prucha-dubi/anisimov-callahan....a very inexperienced line. now, for all of you that will scream for straka to play on the first line and move avery down, no way...shanahan and avery have a very good chemistry and drury and avery and shanahan all like to dump and chase and shoot the puck....which will work well together. i think straka is the odd man out and will play on the third line, which then means that a rookie will not make the team out of camp

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09-16-2007, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
but I'm not really here to bash. I'm not a huge fan but do believe that he is useful and can add value. However, after thinking it through further I'm not a fan of him being on a top line. I understand that's where Hossa would perform the best (who wouldn't - Renney saw fit to play Isbister there, which he justified by saying he's good in the corners), but sometimes I think it is about where Hossa would excel most as he has been a favorite of Renney, as opposed to someone like, say Prucha. Renney has his reasons, and that's fine because in the end he has to defend his decisions. But sometimes I think it is about spreading the wealth a bit - which means bringing Straka down to a third line to bring something tho that third line. Personally, I'm all for spreading the weath, but I spread the wealth a different way (i.e., Shanny not playing with Jagr). The top line should have the be a top line. It should have top line players. In no way should that line's talent be diluted to spread the wealth. Straka plays his best with Jagr. Jagr plays his best with Straka. Straka scored nearly 30 goals last season - if Renney thinks he can be as successful on a third line, or nearly as successful, he's sorely mistaken. Straka should be on that top line - that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Good post.

I don't think Straka is a big upgrade over Hossa once in the attacking zone, but he defenitly is a huge upgrade over Hossa getting into the attacking zone.

Against the best teams who manage to shut down Jagr I think Straka is a superior option over Hossa with JJ. Like against teams like Buffalo, NJD and Ottawa. No matter how well Hossa looks I think its safe to assume that Straka and Jagr would be reunited at times during the season.

Think that could be a reason for why Callahan was tryed at center. Like if Hossa-Gomez-Jagr gets stuck in a game, have trouble establishing pressure in the attacking zone, Straka and Hossa could be shifted during the game, with the 3rd becomming Hossa-Callahan-Prucha.

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09-16-2007, 06:56 AM
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like i've said before, he needs to be with really good players like jags and gomez on the top line to score goals. Also he is our best player shootouts

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09-16-2007, 07:30 AM
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Marcel has had all summer to ponder if he has what it takes to OWN the LW on the 1st line.

Lets see what he's got

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09-16-2007, 09:30 AM
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I do like Hossa better...

with Prucha and Cally. You make a good point about getting into the attack zone, ola. That's part of the battlle. Straka is also just as good at keeping it in, but he goes about it a different way. Hossa can use his body a bit more, but Straka has the speed to beat defenders to the puck - at least as useful.

I do think a line of Straka-Cally-Prucha would just be too small and reminds me too much of the line that Cullen centered with little success (it looked good, as they tried hard, but the result left a bit to be desired). I envision something similar.

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09-16-2007, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Good post.

I don't think Straka is a big upgrade over Hossa once in the attacking zone, but he defenitly is a huge upgrade over Hossa getting into the attacking zone.

Against the best teams who manage to shut down Jagr I think Straka is a superior option over Hossa with JJ. Like against teams like Buffalo, NJD and Ottawa. No matter how well Hossa looks I think its safe to assume that Straka and Jagr would be reunited at times during the season.

Think that could be a reason for why Callahan was tryed at center. Like if Hossa-Gomez-Jagr gets stuck in a game, have trouble establishing pressure in the attacking zone, Straka and Hossa could be shifted during the game, with the 3rd becomming Hossa-Callahan-Prucha.


are you serious?? Hossa does nothing but control the boards, he has no creativity when coming off the boards, his shot selection leaves alot to be desired and he has no vision when compared to Straka.

Hossa is a MAJOR downgrade from Straka in all three zones.

And for those who want a "physical" winger with Gomer and Jags, why do you keep mentioning Hossa as a player that fits that mold? He's not a physical player, in fact I'd go so far as to say he's pretty soft. The only thing that makes him appear physical is his ability to control the puck along the walls, which he does almost as good as Jagr which is very impressive considering the rest of his game reeks.

after 10 games when Hossa has 2 points, people will be begging to have Hossa removed from that spot.

I really can't believe he has some folks here fooled into thinking he is anything more than a 3rd or 4th liner/PK'er

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09-16-2007, 10:07 AM
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are you serious?? Hossa does nothing but control the boards, he has no creativity when coming off the boards, his shot selection leaves alot to be desired and he has no vision when compared to Straka.

Hossa is a MAJOR downgrade from Straka in all three zones.

And for those who want a "physical" winger with Gomer and Jags, why do you keep mentioning Hossa as a player that fits that mold? He's not a physical player, in fact I'd go so far as to say he's pretty soft. The only thing that makes him appear physical is his ability to control the puck along the walls, which he does almost as good as Jagr which is very impressive considering the rest of his game reeks.

after 10 games when Hossa has 2 points, people will be begging to have Hossa removed from that spot.

I really can't believe he has some folks here fooled into thinking he is anything more than a 3rd or 4th liner/PK'er


AGREED!

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09-16-2007, 10:33 AM
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are you serious?? Hossa does nothing but control the boards, he has no creativity when coming off the boards, his shot selection leaves alot to be desired and he has no vision when compared to Straka.

Hossa is a MAJOR downgrade from Straka in all three zones.

And for those who want a "physical" winger with Gomer and Jags, why do you keep mentioning Hossa as a player that fits that mold? He's not a physical player, in fact I'd go so far as to say he's pretty soft. The only thing that makes him appear physical is his ability to control the puck along the walls, which he does almost as good as Jagr which is very impressive considering the rest of his game reeks.

after 10 games when Hossa has 2 points, people will be begging to have Hossa removed from that spot.

I really can't believe he has some folks here fooled into thinking he is anything more than a 3rd or 4th liner/PK'er
And I cant believe you're so quick to relegate him to the 3rd or 4th line, especially after the tear he went on at the end of last season while playing with Jagr.

Im not convinced hes a better option than Straka, but he did play extremely well on the first line last season, and I think having him there this season will, more than anything, create a more balanced offensive attack down through the 3rd line.

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09-16-2007, 11:01 AM
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Bleed...

that's one of the points of my thread - balance. I'm not a fan of 'balancing' if it at all weakens the top line just because you know the left winger would excel because he is playing with Jagr, who if healthy, will get his share of points no matter who's on the left side. The third line currently has a guy who scored 30 goals two seasons ago and a kid who scored a ton of goals in the AHL. Throw in Hossa, a guy who went on a tear last season, and you have a balanced attack, if one believes that Hossa's really a player even without Jagr.

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09-16-2007, 11:34 AM
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that's one of the points of my thread - balance. I'm not a fan of 'balancing' if it at all weakens the top line just because you know the left winger would excel because he is playing with Jagr, who if healthy, will get his share of points no matter who's on the left side. The third line currently has a guy who scored 30 goals two seasons ago and a kid who scored a ton of goals in the AHL. Throw in Hossa, a guy who went on a tear last season, and you have a balanced attack, if one believes that Hossa's really a player even without Jagr.
Isn't it clear that the Rangers are going with three scoring lines instead of 2 scoring lines?

Can the Rangers get through I...don't..know...a preseason game before we start saying who belongs where...based on last season...or the season before that?

Hossa played well with Jagr...Strakas role this season could be rover between the 1st and 3rd lines depending on the score...Hossa has developed here and has taken the place of a veteran (something i'm sure you called for in the past...a "yute" taking the place of a veterean)

IF the point is this should be Pruchas spot thats fine but Renney sees prucha as a RW...Prucha should also still get more power play time then Hossa....

Every year the same thing needs to be explained...Games aren't played just at even strenth...it's possible Prucha gets more scoring chances with Jagr based on special teams...

Hossa played well last season....if this is the lineup that starts the season then the Rangers are more balanced...at some point Rangers fans will see the value in hossa....

If Hossa was from Western Canada every single one of his critics would be a fan...I'm just glad Renney doesn't see it the same way as the geniues who think hossa isn't creative in the offensive zone..

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09-16-2007, 12:03 PM
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If Hossa's worthy...

of playing on a top line, then having him on the third line should provide ample third line scoring, no?

My point is Straka should be playing with Jagr. I actually think Hossa is a better third liner than Straka and changes the look of that line enough so it's different than what wasn't effective last season.

And it's preseason talk because where he plays in preseason dictates where he starts the regular season.

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09-16-2007, 12:14 PM
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of playing on a top line, then having him on the third line should provide ample third line scoring, no?

My point is Straka should be playing with Jagr. I actually think Hossa is a better third liner than Straka and changes the look of that line enough so it's different than what wasn't effective last season.

And it's preseason talk because where he plays in preseason dictates where he starts the regular season.
Fletch if this was the end of camp i'd think you have a point...it's the 3rd day of practice and Straka has been moved UP a line to center with Shanny and Avery today...Things are going to change..DAILY...with the team..

Hossa earned a long look in camp with his play down the stretch and in the first round of the playoffs...that's exactly what he's getting....

I can see Renney thinking Straka is a veteran that can settle into a 3rd line line role and perform for the Rangers...I can also see Renney NOT wanting a kid line with Callahan, Prucha, and Hossa...a veteran presense on the 3rd line can't be discounted..early in camp and early in the season...

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09-16-2007, 02:09 PM
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It's kind of ironic. Hossa is bigger which is a main reason for him being on the first line because he can get into the corners and keep Jagr and co. from having to do that. The irony is that a bigger player should be on the third line with other bigger bodies. I personally think Prucha should be in that place if Straka is going to the third line.
Prucha - Gomez - Jagr
Avery - Drury - Shanahan
Hossa - Callahan - Straka
Orr - Betts - Hollweg

Not sure.

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09-16-2007, 02:32 PM
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And I cant believe you're so quick to relegate him to the 3rd or 4th line, especially after the tear he went on at the end of last season while playing with Jagr.

Im not convinced hes a better option than Straka, but he did play extremely well on the first line last season, and I think having him there this season will, more than anything, create a more balanced offensive attack down through the 3rd line.

Sorry, but I'm not the kind of guy that's going to reward a player that had generated a total of 5 points in 40+ games before Renney generously put him on a line with Jagr and Nylander while a guy like Prucha had actually earned that spot.

The guy has done nothing in his career (before with the Canadiens and now with the Rangers) that has led me to believe he can be a consistent contributor and point producer that a 1st line player should be.

I'm also not going to say that a 15 game spurt at the end of the season where he played well is enough for me to pencil him in at the #1 LW on this team.

I'd like to see him produce on the 3rd line, then the 2nd line before I think he's earned a 1st line role. He hasn't done that and I don't believe he can.

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09-16-2007, 02:58 PM
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pld...

the flip side is one can see Straka getting rewarded for his decent play during the course of an entire season. Of course, the youth movement people could get upset that a vet is favored over a yoot, and they have a valid argument. Personally, I don't currently see a yoot that's a top line left winger and wouldn't be upset having the position occupied by a vet. Second line may be a different story, but top line, not really.

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09-16-2007, 03:07 PM
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but I'm not really here to bash. I'm not a huge fan but do believe that he is useful and can add value. However, after thinking it through further I'm not a fan of him being on a top line. I understand that's where Hossa would perform the best (who wouldn't - Renney saw fit to play Isbister there, which he justified by saying he's good in the corners), but sometimes I think it is about where Hossa would excel most as he has been a favorite of Renney, as opposed to someone like, say Prucha. Renney has his reasons, and that's fine because in the end he has to defend his decisions. But sometimes I think it is about spreading the wealth a bit - which means bringing Straka down to a third line to bring something tho that third line. Personally, I'm all for spreading the weath, but I spread the wealth a different way (i.e., Shanny not playing with Jagr). The top line should have the be a top line. It should have top line players. In no way should that line's talent be diluted to spread the wealth. Straka plays his best with Jagr. Jagr plays his best with Straka. Straka scored nearly 30 goals last season - if Renney thinks he can be as successful on a third line, or nearly as successful, he's sorely mistaken. Straka should be on that top line - that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Agreed. At least to start the year I'd like to see Straka-Gomez-Jagr. Hossa can be moved up in case of injury or if that line doesn't click for whatever reason. Thi group of forwards is deepe enough so that they don't need to dilute the top lines.

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09-16-2007, 04:43 PM
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Sorry, but I'm not the kind of guy that's going to reward a player that had generated a total of 5 points in 40+ games before Renney generously put him on a line with Jagr and Nylander while a guy like Prucha had actually earned that spot.

The guy has done nothing in his career (before with the Canadiens and now with the Rangers) that has led me to believe he can be a consistent contributor and point producer that a 1st line player should be.

I'm also not going to say that a 15 game spurt at the end of the season where he played well is enough for me to pencil him in at the #1 LW on this team.

I'd like to see him produce on the 3rd line, then the 2nd line before I think he's earned a 1st line role. He hasn't done that and I don't believe he can.

why is it that a guy that played the majority of last season playing with Betts doesn't get the beneifit of the doubt...it's funny that every time betts name is brought up so is betts lack of assists....but not when hossa is mentioned with it...

When playing with top line players hossa scored like a top line player...right?

i think it's easy to pencil hossa in as first line LW going into camp..if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out...nobody is saying to use permenent marker here....the other side of the pencil is an eraser...

if hossa was from western canada the "it take power forwards longer to develop" mantra would be heard....

so you'd like to see hossa produce on the 3rd line and 2nd line (forgetting that each line gets about the same amount of minutes) but you discount everything he did on the first line...interesting....very interesting....

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09-16-2007, 04:49 PM
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to be honest, i want dawes on the first line and hossa on the 4th....maybe with another player on the 4th with him instead of holweg, like pyatt or someone like him or that other player who they brought in to tryout.....it would score more and they could roll 4 lines most of the time

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09-16-2007, 05:02 PM
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Sorry, but I'm not the kind of guy that's going to reward a player that had generated a total of 5 points in 40+ games before Renney generously put him on a line with Jagr and Nylander while a guy like Prucha had actually earned that spot.

The guy has done nothing in his career (before with the Canadiens and now with the Rangers) that has led me to believe he can be a consistent contributor and point producer that a 1st line player should be.

I'm also not going to say that a 15 game spurt at the end of the season where he played well is enough for me to pencil him in at the #1 LW on this team.

I'd like to see him produce on the 3rd line, then the 2nd line before I think he's earned a 1st line role. He hasn't done that and I don't believe he can.
Prucha got a shot with Jagr last season, and he couldnt handle the increased minutes and the workload of getting even strength shifts against the opposition's top checking line. Now, if we're talking about the powerplay, thats a different story since Prucha is clearly more creative than Hossa...but at even strength, Hossa showed
some flashes last year, and if he stays in the spot for a fullseason, I think he can net 20+, all while creating open ice for Gomez and Jagr.

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