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Another Hossa thread....

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Old
09-16-2007, 05:06 PM
  #26
livewell68
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What people fail to bring up or just seem to forget altogether is the fact that Jagr himself is a beast at controlling the puck along the boards and cycling the puck.

People say that Hossa goes well on the first line because of his size. Well let me ask, do you actually think that Jagr lacks size or strength?
I mean for Pete's sake, Jagr is 6'3" and weighs around 230lbs, and is actually bigger and stronger than Hossa is.

Although you will see Jagr play a more up-tempo game this year due to the fact that Gomez is faster than Nylander was, and also due to the fact that Jagr is a bit trimmer this year and is skating considerably faster than he has been for say the last 7 years. You will see Jagr dominate on the boards, and now 100% healthy, Jagr no longer has a weak shoulder and sore shoulder and you will see more of the 2005-06 Jagr in terms of controlling the play.

Gomez is bigger and stronger than Nylander as well and will be better at cycling the puck with Jagr. So I think that line needs more of a speed dynamic added to its line and that is where Straka comes into play. Although Jagr is a big guy, he can skate with the best of them and when he starts to accelerate, he can really wheel his way.

Jagr usually plays according to the way the game is played and the way his teammates respond. he also plays up to his linemates strength. Nylander's strength was cycling and puck control and that's exactly how Jagr played. Gomez and Straka's strengths are speed and puck control, and you will see Jagr adapt to that. People think that Jagr is slow, but that's not true, when he gets going, he can be pretty darn fast.

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09-16-2007, 05:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
What people fail to bring up or just seem to forget altogether is the fact that Jagr himself is a beast at controlling the puck along the boards and cycling the puck.

People say that Hossa goes well on the first line because of his size. Well let me ask, do you actually think that Jagr lacks size or strength?
I mean for Pete's sake, Jagr is 6'3" and weighs around 230lbs, and is actually bigger and stronger than Hossa is.

Although you will see Jagr play a more up-tempo game this year due to the fact that Gomez is faster than Nylander was, and also due to the fact that Jagr is a bit trimmer this year and is skating considerably faster than he has been for say the last 7 years. You will see Jagr dominate on the boards, and now 100% healthy, Jagr no longer has a weak shoulder and sore shoulder and you will see more of the 2005-06 Jagr in terms of controlling the play.

Gomez is bigger and stronger than Nylander as well and will be better at cycling the puck with Jagr. So I think that line needs more of a speed dynamic added to its line and that is where Straka comes into play. Although Jagr is a big guy, he can skate with the best of them and when he starts to accelerate, he can really wheel his way.

Jagr usually plays according to the way the game is played and the way his teammates respond. he also plays up to his linemates strength. Nylander's strength was cycling and puck control and that's exactly how Jagr played. Gomez and Straka's strengths are speed and puck control, and you will see Jagr adapt to that. People think that Jagr is slow, but that's not true, when he gets going, he can be pretty darn fast.
while it's true that jagr is clearly bigger than hossa and can more than handle his own along the boards often, the reality is none of us want him there for very long. even if the shoulder is fine and 100% you don't want a talent like jagr having to shoulder(yes, pun intended) the load of a constant pounding like that at this point of his career.

and actually, while jagr is great at puck possession along the boards, he's not so great at cycling in the traditional sense...he just holds and fends off until he see something he likes better. "cycling" in hossa's case(and in most cases IMO) involves heavy forechecking and blind back-passing to a spot where you think your teammate who's in the area of play will be to beat the opposition.

personally, i don't disagree with your view or the idea that the top line doesn't need hossa. at the same time what this thread and countless others bring home is the point that puts a grin on my face every time i see one...and that's the seemingly improved versatility of the forwards coming into this season.

the possibilities really are enough to make one drool. well, almost.

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09-16-2007, 05:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
why is it that a guy that played the majority of last season playing with Betts doesn't get the beneifit of the doubt...it's funny that every time betts name is brought up so is betts lack of assists....but not when hossa is mentioned with it...

When playing with top line players hossa scored like a top line player...right?

i think it's easy to pencil hossa in as first line LW going into camp..if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out...nobody is saying to use permenent marker here....the other side of the pencil is an eraser...

if hossa was from western canada the "it take power forwards longer to develop" mantra would be heard....

so you'd like to see hossa produce on the 3rd line and 2nd line (forgetting that each line gets about the same amount of minutes) but you discount everything he did on the first line...interesting....very interesting....

Well said, SoS. There is a huge double standard when it applies to Hossa's lack of production on the 3rd/4th line and Prucha/Straka/etc. playing there.

"Can't play Pruchs on the 3rd/4th line 'cause it'll hurt his production!" "If Hossa's so good, why didn't he show us more points on the 3rd/4th line?" One or the other, guys - can't have 'em both.

As I mentioned in the Callahan thread, Hossa's stretch last year wasn't just one or two games and it wasn't just a nice bump in scoring. After Renney moved him to the first line he all of a sudden started scoring at a 50+ goal pace. And he did it for two weeks.

It is possible that it all finally clicked for Marcel last season - not in terms of clicking with certain linemates (although that was clearly part of it), but in terms of a young guy figuring out how to bring his skills together and play up to his potential. We're all hoping that Hugh Jessiman, for example, will have a moment where everything "clicks" - why not give Marcel the benefit of the doubt that it happened for him last year?

If he slips back, I've got no problem demoting him. What I don't get is why almost everyone on this thread is reacting as if he's already had a 10 game slump. He hasn't - in fact, by all reports from camp he's picked up where he left off.

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09-16-2007, 06:22 PM
  #29
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Don't like the idea of Hossa playing with Jagr and Gomez. I would much rather have prucha their. Im not just saying that because Prucha is my favorite player. Prucha played excellent in the 05-06 season with Jagr.

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09-16-2007, 06:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Well said, SoS. There is a huge double standard when it applies to Hossa's lack of production on the 3rd/4th line and Prucha/Straka/etc. playing there.

"Can't play Pruchs on the 3rd/4th line 'cause it'll hurt his production!" "If Hossa's so good, why didn't he show us more points on the 3rd/4th line?" One or the other, guys - can't have 'em both.

As I mentioned in the Callahan thread, Hossa's stretch last year wasn't just one or two games and it wasn't just a nice bump in scoring. After Renney moved him to the first line he all of a sudden started scoring at a 50+ goal pace. And he did it for two weeks.

It is possible that it all finally clicked for Marcel last season - not in terms of clicking with certain linemates (although that was clearly part of it), but in terms of a young guy figuring out how to bring his skills together and play up to his potential. We're all hoping that Hugh Jessiman, for example, will have a moment where everything "clicks" - why not give Marcel the benefit of the doubt that it happened for him last year?

If he slips back, I've got no problem demoting him. What I don't get is why almost everyone on this thread is reacting as if he's already had a 10 game slump. He hasn't - in fact, by all reports from camp he's picked up where he left off.
Just because Hossa put up good numbers with Jagr and Nylander doesn't make him a legit first liner. Most NHL forwards should be able to put up strong numbers playing with those two.

That being said, I wouldn't be upset if Hossa is skating with Gomez and Jagr on opening night. That line could be really solid. If it was up to me would prefer Straka in that spot but I don't think either would be bad. Like SOS, there will be plenty of time to shuffle lines throughout the season if that doesn't work out.

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09-16-2007, 06:51 PM
  #31
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I actually want Jagr carrying the puck. His success, and the success of the players around him, have been a result of him handling the puck and taking on two defenders and creating plays. Hossa's not out there to carry the puck - he's out there to keep the puck in the zone and finish his chances. Between Gomez and Jagr there's enough out there to create plays, and if they're not, this team's first line would be in trouble.

SoS - Hossa doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of his history as an NLHer. I'm not commenting much on Hossa as a player, just my assessment of people's perception of him. This season will show whether or not he's worthy of that perception. Personally, I won't predict because he does have talent and size, but now needs to show he can do it consistently.

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09-16-2007, 07:13 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
why is it that a guy that played the majority of last season playing with Betts doesn't get the beneifit of the doubt...it's funny that every time betts name is brought up so is betts lack of assists....but not when hossa is mentioned with it...

When playing with top line players hossa scored like a top line player...right?

i think it's easy to pencil hossa in as first line LW going into camp..if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out...nobody is saying to use permenent marker here....the other side of the pencil is an eraser...

if hossa was from western canada the "it take power forwards longer to develop" mantra would be heard....

so you'd like to see hossa produce on the 3rd line and 2nd line (forgetting that each line gets about the same amount of minutes) but you discount everything he did on the first line...interesting....very interesting....
Not discounting it, just not putting alot of stock into it.

I could care less where he's from as I had no belief whatsoever that Isbister was the answer there either.

I want someone that I can trust in a big situation and Hossa is not that guy. And the power forward comment by you is a total crock of **** in that even those guys show more offensive ability than Hossa has EVER shown.

LeClair was scoring 40+ points playing 2nd and 3rd line minutes while in Montreal.

Betruzzi a 20+ point getter as a rookie on the Island, 30+ points the next year split between NYI and VAN.

Hossa has done didly aside from a short stint with an all woerld player and a Center taylor made for that all world player and because he didn't look out of place he's penciled in as our top line LW??

Bizzare

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09-16-2007, 07:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Not discounting it, just not putting alot of stock into it.

I could care less where he's from as I had no belief whatsoever that Isbister was the answer there either.

I want someone that I can trust in a big situation and Hossa is not that guy. And the power forward comment by you is a total crock of **** in that even those guys show more offensive ability than Hossa has EVER shown.

LeClair was scoring 40+ points playing 2nd and 3rd line minutes while in Montreal.

Betruzzi a 20+ point getter as a rookie on the Island, 30+ points the next year split between NYI and VAN.

Hossa has done didly aside from a short stint with an all woerld player and a Center taylor made for that all world player and because he didn't look out of place he's penciled in as our top line LW??

Bizzare

So because LeClair and Bertuzzi are bad comparrions that means the comment is a total crock? ok....

Hossa has done plenty to earn his ice time...He earned it with his play on the bottom two lines AND his play with Jagr..When Hossa is asked to play on the bottom two lines and on a checking line he plays it well..When he was asked LAST SEASON to play on the top line he played great...

He also kills penalties which means he is going to have a spot in the lineup...Hossa EARNED his chance to start TRAINING CAMP with Jagr...Does it mean that's where he starts the season? Nope...Does it mean it's going to last the whole season? nope...But so far in camp ALL REPORTS say the line has played well...

You guys are nuts if you think Renney isn't going to go give a chance to a guy that played well for him....in ALL THREE ZONES...Renney is looking for balance and Hossa on the 3rd line with Prucha and Callahan might be too much youth for Renneys liking..

Is this going to be a case of Rangers fans giving Jagr all the credit for another player they don't like? (see Rozsival two years ago as another example)

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09-16-2007, 07:34 PM
  #34
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SoS...

I don't think anyone doubts that Renney's going to give Hossa a chance - he seems to be one of his pet projects, so he'll stay on (not saying this as a negative, but I think this is quite true).

Personally, most success he had on that line I'd credit to Jagr, but to be fair, most of Prucha's goals on the PP I would also give a lot of credit to Jagr. Could someone else have done better there? Tough to say considering the short stint - over 82 games, my guess is yes, but that remains to be seen, and perhaps we'll get a chance to see.

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09-16-2007, 07:54 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
So because LeClair and Bertuzzi are bad comparrions that means the comment is a total crock? ok....

Hossa has done plenty to earn his ice time...He earned it with his play on the bottom two lines AND his play with Jagr..When Hossa is asked to play on the bottom two lines and on a checking line he plays it well..When he was asked LAST SEASON to play on the top line he played great...

He also kills penalties which means he is going to have a spot in the lineup...Hossa EARNED his chance to start TRAINING CAMP with Jagr...Does it mean that's where he starts the season? Nope...Does it mean it's going to last the whole season? nope...But so far in camp ALL REPORTS say the line has played well...

You guys are nuts if you think Renney isn't going to go give a chance to a guy that played well for him....in ALL THREE ZONES...Renney is looking for balance and Hossa on the 3rd line with Prucha and Callahan might be too much youth for Renneys liking..

Is this going to be a case of Rangers fans giving Jagr all the credit for another player they don't like? (see Rozsival two years ago as another example)
Agree to disagree.

But if you are going to bring up the point of Power Forwards taking time to develope, I'd like to see some comparissons that play a similar style to that of Hossa, which is not PF-esque

You seem to think that 5 points in 40+ games earned him the right to get another 13 points in the last 18+ games. I don't see it.

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09-16-2007, 08:41 PM
  #36
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Agree to disagree.

But if you are going to bring up the point of Power Forwards taking time to develope, I'd like to see some comparissons that play a similar style to that of Hossa, which is not PF-esque

You seem to think that 5 points in 40+ games earned him the right to get another 13 points in the last 18+ games. I don't see it.
I don't care how many points he had on the bottom 2 lines...i do care that in the role he was put in on the 3rd and 4th line he did the job...It's not about scoring when your center is Blair Betts...

I don't think the the fact that he had 5 points means he played bad...When he was put in a role to succeed as an offensive player he did...He EARNED the right to get looked at in training camp with Jagr..Which is exactly what's going on right now...
do you think Renney is going to not look at the things that made the team succesful down the stretch? I don't see what the problem is?

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09-16-2007, 08:48 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I actually want Jagr carrying the puck. His success, and the success of the players around him, have been a result of him handling the puck and taking on two defenders and creating plays. Hossa's not out there to carry the puck - he's out there to keep the puck in the zone and finish his chances. Between Gomez and Jagr there's enough out there to create plays, and if they're not, this team's first line would be in trouble.
sorry fletch, perhaps i need to be more clear on my stance.

i agree with what you say about jagr and in fact when he doesn't have the puck on his stick much he's a totally different and much worse-off player. what i was trying to point out is i don't think any of us want jagr consistently fishing for loose pucks or be the guy to chase and forecheck when the puck is dumped in. when jagr works best along the boards with the puck is when the rangers already have possession and it's passed to him. it's because by that time he has a general idea of who's where in the zone and what each player will do. whereas hossa is good at fetching or retrieving if you will.

granted, hossa won't do anything great with the puck but his ability to take the shoves and pushes w/o relinquishing control buys some time for others to get into position to receive a pass from him or to help him out when he gets outnumbered. that's not to say it takes more energy for a defender or defenders to guard hossa than jagr but it's a little skill of his that comes in handy more than once in a little while. i don't want jagr to be in that situation much. i want jj to be able to either find the seam in the zone to get a pass and make a play or to be constantly in motion along the boards and in the corners so as to best avoid all that abuse.

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09-16-2007, 09:00 PM
  #38
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i agree with ^, however i think there a lot of players that could do that.....avery....callahan....dawes.....IMO are all faster than hossa and can bring more to the table. all are playmakers and can score, and callahan and dawes are GREAT finishers around the net.....they all go into the dirty areas and can beat defenseman to the puck in the corner....i think hossa will have to prove what he can do if he wants to play on the top line....i think there are better options than hossa, although i think he is a good young player....he is still a project......

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09-16-2007, 09:06 PM
  #39
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i agree with ^, however i think there a lot of players that could do that.....avery....callahan....dawes.....IMO are all faster than hossa and can bring more to the table. all are playmakers and can score, and callahan and dawes are GREAT finishers around the net.....they all go into the dirty areas and can beat defenseman to the puck in the corner....i think hossa will have to prove what he can do if he wants to play on the top line....i think there are better options than hossa, although i think he is a good young player....he is still a project......
Okay, but again - when last we saw Hossa, he appeared to be showing that the "project" was complete. What has he done since then to reverse this impression? Get hurt? C'mon...

This is why I say the first line LW is his to lose. If he does lose it - okay, he lost it. I and the other Hossa supporters would have no problem with that. But why take it away from him preemptively? I just don't understand...

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09-16-2007, 09:56 PM
  #40
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i understand what your saying...i am not opposed to it, however i really like dawes, and i think he should have a spot this year.....on one of the top three lines....there is no way that will happen if hossa is on the 1st line...i think dawes has more upside and could really open some eyes........it is hossa's job to lose, although, if he doesnt produce, i will be the first to say he deserved to be benched

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09-17-2007, 01:16 PM
  #41
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If it is so easy to score goals and go on a tear playing on the top line, then why doesn't everyone that plays with Jagr get the numbers that Hossa had last year? -Z

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09-17-2007, 02:07 PM
  #42
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Bfn...

I'm still trying to figure out what Straka did to lose his position as the top line left winger. While right now the position may be Hossa's to lose, I'm wondering why Straka doesn't have a similar, if not stronger, entitlement.

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09-17-2007, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'm still trying to figure out what Straka did to lose his position as the top line left winger. While right now the position may be Hossa's to lose, I'm wondering why Straka doesn't have a similar, if not stronger, entitlement.
A question I'd like to hear the answer to as well.

We have a player (Straka) that was headed for a career year before getting hurt and missing a few games and and because Hossa had a good 15 game cup of coffee on Jagr's LW when the team as a whole was playing it's best hockey the position is his to lose?

I'm lost with that rationale. I just don't get it.

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09-17-2007, 04:17 PM
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spread out the depth
and his knee may not be 100% yet

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09-17-2007, 04:24 PM
  #45
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Ultimately I want to complain that Hossa's creativity is being wasted on likes of Betts and Orr/Hollweg but I don't remember ONE game last year where that was the case. I don't remeber one Instance where i thought GOD if either of those 2 players had ANY ability to put home the chances that Hossa is generating we'd be much better off.

Ideally I'd like to see Hossa climb the ladder to the top line which means playing well enough on the 3rd line to push Avery off the 2nd line. Then playing well enough on the 2nd line to make putting him on the top line a no-brainer.

But alas, the only time the guy shows any offence, is when he's paird up with an All-World player in Jagr and a center that was born to play with Jagr (Nylander is a good 2nd line center, mark my words his point totals drop 20+ points this year)

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09-17-2007, 04:54 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Ultimately I want to complain that Hossa's creativity is being wasted on likes of Betts and Orr/Hollweg but I don't remember ONE game last year where that was the case. I don't remeber one Instance where i thought GOD if either of those 2 players had ANY ability to put home the chances that Hossa is generating we'd be much better off.
That's exactly why Hossa should be on the 1st line instead of the 3rd. He isn't a playmaker, but with Jagr and Gomez, he doesn't need to be. He's great along the boards, he's a big body to move in front of the net and he has a pretty good shot. He'll be there down low to work the boards and keep the forecheck going. He'll be there to pick up rebounds.

Putting together lines isn't just about who scores the most, it's about fitting players with different styles together into a working unit. Straka, Callahan and Prucha (if they keep that line together) all have speed and creativity. They compliment each other well, better than Hossa would on that line.

Is Marcel as good as his brother? Nope, not at this point and probably never will be. But he sure outplayed his brother in the playoffs last year. Why? Because Renney put him in a position to make the most of his talents.

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09-17-2007, 06:50 PM
  #47
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I'm still trying to figure out what Straka did to lose his position as the top line left winger. While right now the position may be Hossa's to lose, I'm wondering why Straka doesn't have a similar, if not stronger, entitlement.
Well we can't blame Jagrs entourage anymore...

I think it's all about where guys fit on a line...I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with Straka losing a spot or Hossa gaining a spot...

Hossa showed enough at the end of last season and in the Atlanta series to be LOOKED at in training camp scrimmiges with Gomez and Jagr..Straka showed his versatility last season playing with a number of forwards...playing well and playing hurt. I don't think this is a punishment...

Is the argument going to turn into Prucha vs Hossa?

Dawes has also been looked at with Gomez and Jagr i don't think anything is set in stone just yet...For all any of us know on opening night Drury is playing with Straka on the first line...

Hossa earned the look in camp though...

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09-17-2007, 07:15 PM
  #48
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I do know...

it has just about everything to do with Renney putting Straka on a second (or third) line to find more offense from other lines and spread the wealth. As mentioned, I'm fine with spreading the wealth, just not a fan of taking a top line guy off the top line to spread the wealth (and watch a guy like Brad Isbister, who was about 6th on the wing depth chart in HFD, play on a top line).

For me, it's not Prucha/Hossa. I am disappointed that Renney that Renney didn't not play Prucha on a top line and I do believe that Hossa is a better third liner than Prucha (that is a compliment). What was missing from last year's third line (once established that is as Prucha, Cullen, Cally) was a guy who can actually hold the puck in the offensive zone and play along the boards a bit. Those three got to pucks quick, and gave up pucks quickly. What they didn't do was sustain pressure and keep possession of the puck. It was skate up, shoot, skate back. Hossa is the element that is missing on that line. Jagr has that with himself and Gomez. This is partly where I'm coming from regarding where Hossa should play. The third line needs to have a puck-possessor - it currently does not. And as I type this, Matsui hits a homer to break the tie.

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09-19-2007, 07:09 PM
  #49
True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'm still trying to figure out what Straka did to lose his position as the top line left winger. While right now the position may be Hossa's to lose, I'm wondering why Straka doesn't have a similar, if not stronger, entitlement.
I'm still trying to figure out what Prucha did to loose his. First to a one-armed Rucinsky, then to Hossa.

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09-19-2007, 07:13 PM
  #50
Fletch
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I think...

Prucha's too one-dimensional for Renney to play top line minutes. He's not great cycling and when with Jagr he's learned to just sit there and wait for the puck. And defensively, while improving, he's not that great. I've come to grips. I think he's a guy you put there late in a game and try to get a goal, but not 82 games, all the time. Third line's probably best for Petr, but with a somewhat decent centerman. He should still get first unit PP time, but he won't - he was more productive as a first unit PPer than Shanny ('05-06 vs. Shanny's '06-07).

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