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Another Hossa thread....

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Old
09-21-2007, 10:58 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by JR#9 View Post
Do you really see 20 to 25 goals as such a stretch when you consider the significant more icetime he'd be getting and the caliber of players he'd be playing with as opposed to Betts and Hollweg or whoever else has been on the 4th line the last 2 yrs?
I do.

15 game stretch aside, I haven't see from him anything that would resemble a player that can consistently score 20+ goals at the NHL level.

While I will concede that he alone on the 4th line isn't going to generate enough offence to support a move up the depth chart, I do have to counter that Betts in a 4th line PK role has score more than Hossa and if Hossa were that much better than Betts offensively wouldn't it then bear out that the two of them would be able to help each other out on the offensive end of the ice? At the end of the day, before moving to the top line, in 40+ games Hossa had 2 goals and 5 points. Those are Colton Orr type numbers. Anyone with any sort of ability should be able to best those numbers and the fact that Hossa didn't in my eyes makes him no better and certainly no more deseviing of top line minutes than Betts or Orr or Hollweg.

I'm not saying I want 15 goals and 15 assists each from Hossa and the rest of the 4th line, but 2 goals in 40+ games? That's not worthy of getting promoted to the 3rd line, nor is it worthy to expect that he will not be scoring 20+ goals a year.

Hossa's real talent is as a plugger and a solid Penalty Killer. Nothing to be ashamed of. But top line scoring threat from the LW? I don't see it and having him there is going to make that line that much easier to shut down because they know all he is gonna do is protect the puck along the wall. He has no ability to come off the wall with the puck and make somethign happen and he has no vision to take advantage of getting double teamed.

The only benefit I see is that we will have a true and legit 2nd line that can and hopefully will pick up the reduction of points generated with Hossa manning the top line LW position.

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Old
09-21-2007, 11:04 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How many times does it need to be said that there's more to a hockey player than how many points he scores? Point totals are dependent on a lot more than just ability. It depends on what other players are on his line, how many minutes he gets, what his line's role is (ie. checking line), how much power play time he gets and what lines his line is matched up against. Put Jagr on a line with Hollweg and Orr in a 3rd line checking role and tell me he gets the same number of points.

But whatever, I'm done arguing with you. Just ask yourself this though. Why would Renney use both Hossa and Isbister on Jagr's line last year? Is it because those players are both offensively better than Straka? No, it's because they both have the ability to create space for Jagr. Straka doesn't. Period.
And yet, the year before last the Line of Straka - Nylander - Jagr was one of the best lines in the NHL?

Isbister was put there because first Shanny got hurt and we needed to put Straka on the 2nd line and needed to replace Straka on the top line. Then Hossa was put there after Isbister was sent away because Straka tweaked his knee.

Making room? What does Hossa do that makes room for anyone? He's not an imposing physical player that creates space for anyone. He's easily guided away from the net and moreso than not is a high slot player which means he actually shy's away from those trenches.

Guys there's a reason Montreal traded him for just Garth Murray and it's not because they think he's a 1st line LW. I really really doubt they missed the boat on this guys to such a large degree.

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09-21-2007, 11:21 AM
  #78
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I agree, PLD....

Hossa wasn't creating any space for Jagr and Nylander. He did quite well on that line but reality was Jagr attracted a defenseman and a forward which allowed Hossa to be in position to get quality shots and get quickly to pucks along the boards to keep the play going. He did well getting off good shots and with his passes, but there wasn't more room out there for Jags. And yeah, two seasons ago Jagr's line, with Straka, was pretty darn good. And last season Straka and Nylander seemed to put up a decent amount of goals/points while playing with Jagr and much of that was done with Straka's speed whereby he may not be good in a battle along the boards, but he was good at keeping the play going because he was quick and was first to the puck.

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09-21-2007, 11:44 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I do.

15 game stretch aside, I haven't see from him anything that would resemble a player that can consistently score 20+ goals at the NHL level.

While I will concede that he alone on the 4th line isn't going to generate enough offence to support a move up the depth chart, I do have to counter that Betts in a 4th line PK role has score more than Hossa and if Hossa were that much better than Betts offensively wouldn't it then bear out that the two of them would be able to help each other out on the offensive end of the ice? At the end of the day, before moving to the top line, in 40+ games Hossa had 2 goals and 5 points. Those are Colton Orr type numbers. Anyone with any sort of ability should be able to best those numbers and the fact that Hossa didn't in my eyes makes him no better and certainly no more deseviing of top line minutes than Betts or Orr or Hollweg.

I'm not saying I want 15 goals and 15 assists each from Hossa and the rest of the 4th line, but 2 goals in 40+ games? That's not worthy of getting promoted to the 3rd line, nor is it worthy to expect that he will not be scoring 20+ goals a year.

Hossa's real talent is as a plugger and a solid Penalty Killer. Nothing to be ashamed of. But top line scoring threat from the LW? I don't see it and having him there is going to make that line that much easier to shut down because they know all he is gonna do is protect the puck along the wall. He has no ability to come off the wall with the puck and make somethign happen and he has no vision to take advantage of getting double teamed.

The only benefit I see is that we will have a true and legit 2nd line that can and hopefully will pick up the reduction of points generated with Hossa manning the top line LW position.
this is what preseason and the 1st few games of the season are for--seeing who works where and what lineup gives you the most complete one and best chance to win over the course of the season.

As I said it isn't a lock that he will work there but IMO I certainly don't see the harm in starting the season giving him a shot to fill that role of course with the fexibility in the lineup to switch to something else if it's not working.

And even if Hossa isn't getting that spot it appears Dawes will be given the next chance as all signs are pointing to Renney wanting Straka on the 3rd line to bring his well-rounded game there.

Maybe at some point the 3rd line center is adequately filled and Straka gives the best option on the 1st line LW spot but as it stands now I really don't see the downside in giving Hossa a shot at it.

Obviously he's not putting up the #'s he did for that 11 game stretch but that doesn't mean 20 goals over an 82 game schedule isn't all that far fetched playing with players such as Gomez-Jagr.

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09-21-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9 View Post
this is what preseason and the 1st few games of the season are for--seeing who works where and what lineup gives you the most complete one and best chance to win over the course of the season.

As I said it isn't a lock that he will work there but IMO I certainly don't see the harm in starting the season giving him a shot to fill that role of course with the fexibility in the lineup to switch to something else if it's not working.

And even if Hossa isn't getting that spot it appears Dawes will be given the next chance as all signs are pointing to Renney wanting Straka on the 3rd line to bring his well-rounded game there.

Maybe at some point the 3rd line center is adequately filled and Straka gives the best option on the 1st line LW spot but as it stands now I really don't see the downside in giving Hossa a shot at it.

Obviously he's not putting up the #'s he did for that 11 game stretch but that doesn't mean 20 goals over an 82 game schedule isn't all that far fetched playing with players such as Gomez-Jagr.
That's a fair enough statement, but for me personally, I don't want a player on my top line using those 2 players as a crutch. I want a player that is a stand-alone good enough offensive player.

Without Jagr, Straka is 30-40 point guy 2nd/3rd liner forward. His career bears that out. Whithout Jagr, Hossa is alot less than that and I'm not sure that even Jagr can get 40 points out of Hossa. A 40 point top line LW is a detriment.

If we are serious about contending this year, I want 70+ points from each position on my top line. I don't see Hossa reaching those levels.

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Old
09-21-2007, 04:08 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How many times does it need to be said that there's more to a hockey player than how many points he scores?
How many times must it be said that it certainly does matter when you are talking about the 1st line of a team that wants to compete for the Cup. What was the last team that was a serious contender and had a guy with 10 goals skating full time on the first line?
Quote:
Put Jagr on a line with Hollweg and Orr in a 3rd line checking role and tell me he gets the same number of points.
First off comparing Hossa to Jagr, even in the context of this discussion is silly. Second of all, if playing with those two, it would be the 4th line and not the third. Thirdly, playing 5 minutes a night on the 4th line would hurt anyone's numbers. However, there is a difference between hurt and outright disappear.
Quote:
Why would Renney use both Hossa and Isbister on Jagr's line last year?
Why would Renney use Jason Krog as the 2nd line center?
Quote:
No, it's because they both have the ability to create space for Jagr. Straka doesn't. Period.
The whole "creating room for Jagr" card is a tad overplayed. Does Jagr need ANYONE to create room for him? Considering that Hossa played 11 games with Jagr last year, and Jagr numbers were just fine, I really do not think so. He had his greatest offensive year, in a year where Rucinsky played wing and when he was hurt, it was Prucha.

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Old
09-21-2007, 04:17 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9 View Post
C'mon TB, that is taking this whipping boy stuff too far because if there is nothing else positive that anybody can say about Hossa this is certainly the case with him.
JR, this has nothing to do with being a whipping boy. It has everything to do with the fact that I just do not think that Hossa is that good. To me, he is a mediocre player, who prior to his 11 game stretch, could have been considered a bubble player.

The previous year, he spent the first 2.5 months exclusively on the 2nd line and did not produce squat. ANd let's not make his PKing and defensive play out to be something that it is not. It is decent, but not Maddenesque. If he can only produce with Jagr, then he has no place on the team. IF he cannot score 15 goals, then he cannot play on the 3rd line. And, in a 5-7 minute role, I would rather have Hollweg's physicality and energy on the 4th line

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