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Osgood's Career

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01-08-2004, 02:05 PM
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X8oD
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Osgood's Career

I am currently in an argument with about 4 people at Letsgowings about Chris Osgood.

they are proclaiming him as one of the great goaltenders in the NHL today, and that his numbers are right up there with the Roy's, the Brodeurs, the Hasek's and other greats which make him a player bound for the Hockey Hall of Fame. They all look at his win Totals and 2 cup rings.

so, simple question, my gut tells me I know what the answer will be, but is Chris Osgood a bet for the HHOF?

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01-08-2004, 02:08 PM
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This should get interesting.

He's not a sure fire, waive the five year waiting period, hall of famer. He might not even be a hall of famer. He still has a few more years left in him, and if he wins another Cup or two and keeps his numbers where they are, he'll get the hall at some point.

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01-08-2004, 02:10 PM
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His whole career he has been a mediocre, adequate goalie. His cup win(s) might turn some heads though.

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01-08-2004, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
I am currently in an argument with about 4 people at Letsgowings about Chris Osgood.

they are proclaiming him as one of the great goaltenders in the NHL today, and that his numbers are right up there with the Roy's, the Brodeurs, the Hasek's and other greats which make him a player bound for the Hockey Hall of Fame. They all look at his win Totals and 2 cup rings.

so, simple question, my gut tells me I know what the answer will be, but is Chris Osgood a bet for the HHOF?
I would say not at this point but a few more achievements and he could get there.

I think Osgood is on top of his game and since he uses relatively small pads he is enjoying a great season. Any crackdown on goalie equipment will probably favor him in the long run and I admire that fact.

If we go by the philosophy that achievements are what matters to go in the Hall of Fame, I think he is on the right track. He's just not there yet.

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01-08-2004, 02:15 PM
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lemme make one point real quick. This is not an Osgood bash thread. I just want to hear what other people say. LGW has a reputation of being flooded with A LOT of homer\puckbunnies. I just accused the local Osgood'ite there of being a puckbunny because she offered no argument other than "F-off hes good" and it drew 3-4 more people who say hes a future HOFer.

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01-08-2004, 02:16 PM
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I'm guessing that the reason this discussion is going on is THIS ARTICLE ON OSGOOD and I must say that I find it quite amusing that you didn't include the link since the writer shows some numbers that hurt your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI
Consider the curious case of Goalie X, a 31-year-old veteran who has won 30 games five times in 10 NHL seasons and twice has had his name etched on the Stanley Cup, once as a starter and once as a backup.

His .626 winning percentage is the fourth-best all-time among netminders with at least 300 decisions. Only Ken Dryden, Gerry Cheevers and Martin Brodeur -- the first two are in the Hall of Fame, where Brodeur will eventually join them -- rank ahead of him.

He's nine short of 300 career wins, and he's just about a lock to reach the milestone in fewer games than it took the incomparable Brodeur. Goalie X has played 529 games; Brodeur won No. 300 in his 548th game.
The most important factoid in this article is that he's only 30 years old. Most people don't realize this. That is the main reason I think that he will end up being a HOFer.

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01-08-2004, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
lemme make one point real quick. This is not an Osgood bash thread. I just want to hear what other people say. LGW has a reputation of being flooded with A LOT of homer\puckbunnies. I just accused the local Osgood'ite there of being a puckbunny because she offered no argument other than "F-off hes good" and it drew 3-4 more people who say hes a future HOFer.
I think that same girl visits the Blues board I go to frequently.

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01-08-2004, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
I'm guessing that the reason this discussion is going on is THIS ARTICLE ON OSGOOD and I must say that I find it quite amusing that you didn't include the link since the writer shows some numbers that hurt your argument.

The most important factoid in this article is that he's only 30 years old. Most people don't realize this. That is the main reason I think that he will end up being a HOFer.
never read the article, the discussion has been brought up on LGW in the past, but this is the only time ive really got invovle in it.

my counter to that stat is, he got all those wins on a team that was probably the best defensive team of the mid to late 90's. they, along with NJ made the trap Famous. He came up just as Detroit got hot. They set the record for wins, and went to the play-offs like 10 straight years. They NEVER had a losing season when he was there. Hell, 1995-1998, they could of dressed a Blue from Old School and he would of put up a comparable winning %.

i dont think its fair to compare goalies of this day and age [the trap era, 95-present] to goalies of the past. Goalies now adays see far less shots, look at an average of only 3-4 goals a game TOTAL between each team. You only need be a competent goalie to put up good numbers.

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01-08-2004, 02:29 PM
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No matter what anyone says, you're going to tell us all how Osgood just rode the coattails of the team in front of him.

Go through what a Blues fan has gone through the past 4-5 years with a great team with poor goaltending and you'll learn to appreciate what Osgood did for the Red Wings.

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01-08-2004, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
No matter what anyone says, you're going to tell us all how Osgood just rode the coattails of the team in front of him.

Go through what a Blues fan has gone through the past 4-5 years with a great team with poor goaltending and you'll learn to appreciate what Osgood did for the Red Wings.
i only say Osgood road the coattails of the wings to HOF Numbers. he was and is a good Goalie. But i dont believe being a good goalie on a GREAT team makes you a HOFer.

thats my only debate\argument. And I fully understand what you went through. Watching Glen Hanlon, Vince rhiendeau, Greg Stefan and Tim Cheveldea attempt to be goaltenders in detroit during the 80's and early 90's scares the heeby-geebies out of you.

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01-08-2004, 02:56 PM
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I think Osgoods career could be closely compared to Mike Vernons...Both good goalies, 2 cups and great careers... But HOF ? I hope not.... The HOF is reserved for the great not the above average or good...

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01-08-2004, 03:03 PM
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Ozzie might be a HHOF, he hasn't had bad numbers with the NYI or patchwork Blues defense either, but it would take him a couple more years to get there, it's just that most most Wings fans only know how to praise Hasek and bash every other goalie that has worn the Winged Wheel since the 1980's-90's.

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01-08-2004, 03:14 PM
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I don't agree that Hasek has been without criticism while every other goalie has been criticized, I think they all have. The only reason Hasek isn't as much is because the one year he was here, we won the cup. Look at how Wings fans were bagging on him after we lost the first two games to Vancouver in 2002. I don't even think Hasek is favor with most Wings fans now.

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01-08-2004, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyacheslav
I don't agree that Hasek has been without criticism while every other goalie has been criticized, I think they all have. The only reason Hasek isn't as much is because the one year he was here, we won the cup. Look at how Wings fans were bagging on him after we lost the first two games to Vancouver in 2002. I don't even think Hasek is favor with most Wings fans now.
I dunno, at the beginning of the season, most everyone on the Wings board couldn't wait to bash Cujo, even though it wasn't all his fault, yet that didn't matter. Hasek just seemed to able to do no wrong, he did good in 2002, but so did the rest of the team (Chelios overachieved with that Norris nom, every other year, he hasn't been as good in DET). But I don't even think it would've mattered if Hasek was in net last year against Anaheim, if the team still doesn't score, they won't win. This year has just been a mess in goal, yet Cujo has been able to rebound pretty nicely, while Hasek came back out-of-shape.

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01-08-2004, 03:30 PM
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his above average who played well for VERY good teams in the postseason.

see the difference, Cujo = no awards/rings, Osgood = 2rings/ not sure on awards.

imho, Osgood does serve it more than cujo, but not sure fire.

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01-08-2004, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
never read the article, the discussion has been brought up on LGW in the past, but this is the only time ive really got invovle in it.

my counter to that stat is, he got all those wins on a team that was probably the best defensive team of the mid to late 90's. they, along with NJ made the trap Famous. He came up just as Detroit got hot. They set the record for wins, and went to the play-offs like 10 straight years. They NEVER had a losing season when he was there. Hell, 1995-1998, they could of dressed a Blue from Old School and he would of put up a comparable winning %.

i dont think its fair to compare goalies of this day and age [the trap era, 95-present] to goalies of the past. Goalies now adays see far less shots, look at an average of only 3-4 goals a game TOTAL between each team. You only need be a competent goalie to put up good numbers.

I hope you realize that this is a great argument for why Brodeur isn't a hall of famer either. Personally I think they both belong. Goalies like Ozzie get reputations and they stick. Fact it guys like Dryden played on great teams too.

Roy and Hasek are clearly special, but we're too quick to call Brodeur the next Roy and too quick to label Ozzie the beneficiary of good teams. Until Cujo came to the Wings, Cujo was universally considered better than Ozzie. Now he seems to reflect him as a Wing completely. Actually he looks worse than Chris ever did. Oh, and St. Lous had a carousel of goalies until Ozzie stabilized the crease.

There are good cases on either side, but in 7 more years, they'll be shoo-ins

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01-08-2004, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
I dunno, at the beginning of the season, most everyone on the Wings board couldn't wait to bash Cujo, even though it wasn't all his fault, yet that didn't matter. Hasek just seemed to able to do no wrong, he did good in 2002, but so did the rest of the team (Chelios overachieved with that Norris nom, every other year, he hasn't been as good in DET). But I don't even think it would've mattered if Hasek was in net last year against Anaheim, if the team still doesn't score, they won't win. This year has just been a mess in goal, yet Cujo has been able to rebound pretty nicely, while Hasek came back out-of-shape.
I agree with most of what you said, but as of right now I think Hasek is not immune from the Wings fans goalie wrath, just because of the fact that he probably wasn't in very good shape when he came here. I know at the beginning of the year Hasek had more favor than Cujo(because the last thing Cujo did was lose in a series and the last thing Hasek did was win a cup) but that's all changed.

It definatly wasn't all Cujo's fault that the Wings lost last year. He let in a few questionable and untimely goals, but he didn't lose the series for the Wings. But I think Wings fans are just quick to criticize their goalies. The only goalie I see as being free of this for his whole career lately is Manny Legace. That would change if he ever became starter.

As for Ozzie, I would like to see him as a HHOF'er, but maybe his rep(deserved or not) will keep him out.

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01-08-2004, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinghorse
I think Osgoods career could be closely compared to Mike Vernons...Both good goalies, 2 cups and great careers... But HOF ? I hope not.... The HOF is reserved for the great not the above average or good...

Isn't the hockey hall more inclusive than any hall. At least more than baseball. And personally, I like it that way. Are you kidding? Vernon?

Vernon led 2 teams to cup wins. Ask Wings fans who before Vernon gave them as much confidence going into a playoff - Sawchuck? On second thought Wings fans would say - duh, Hasek? Vernon was on the second best team in the league for half a decade or so, but it was buried behind one of the best teams ever in a playoff format that required you to defeat divisional opponents in the first 2 rounds. I mean Vernon is a large part of the reason that the Battle of Alberta was at it's peak in those years. The Flames were damn good, and Vernon was part of it. And as soon as the Wings trade for him, they cease to be underachievers in the playoffs. And he took the criticizm too. Oh and he won the Conn Smythe in 97. And was dropped on his ass as a thank you. don't give me that.

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01-08-2004, 04:00 PM
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First off, let's get this notion that he won two Cups out of the discussion. He was the starter on one of them.

Osgood is not a Hall of Famer. Hall of Famers don't get exposed in waiver drafts (no matter WHAT the extenuating circumstance is) and don't get dealt because of poor play at the age he was at when those things happened to him. He's never won an award that is voted on. His Cup win as a starter came in his first Cup, he was replaced as the #1 the year after he won the Cup. That's not a mark of a Hall of Famer. None of that is. That's not even looking at the stats, which are nice but not HOF worthy.

He's had a nice career. A very good career you could say. When he retires, he can do so holding his head high, because he won a Cup (who knows, maybe more). But so far, he has in no way had a Hall of Fame career.

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01-08-2004, 04:13 PM
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Ozzy's had a good career so far, and has put up some impressive numbers, but for no extended period of time has he been anywhere close to dominant. He's always just been good or, at best, really good. I really like Ozzy, but I don't consider him HOF material.

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01-08-2004, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
First off, let's get this notion that he won two Cups out of the discussion. He was the starter on one of them.

Osgood is not a Hall of Famer. Hall of Famers don't get exposed in waiver drafts (no matter WHAT the extenuating circumstance is) and don't get dealt because of poor play at the age he was at when those things happened to him. He's never won an award that is voted on. His Cup win as a starter came in his first Cup, he was replaced as the #1 the year after he won the Cup. That's not a mark of a Hall of Famer. None of that is. That's not even looking at the stats, which are nice but not HOF worthy.

He's had a nice career. A very good career you could say. When he retires, he can do so holding his head high, because he won a Cup (who knows, maybe more). But so far, he has in no way had a Hall of Fame career.

I'm not sure I follow your "he was replaced after winning the cup" theory. Osgood had a few more starts than Vernon in the regular season, then Vernon was the playoff goalie for the first cup. Osgood was the main goalie through regular and post season the following year and was the starter the year after that. Unless my memory is completely shot.

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01-08-2004, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explosivethinman
I'm not sure I follow your "he was replaced after winning the cup" theory. Osgood had a few more starts than Vernon in the regular season, then Vernon was the playoff goalie for the first cup. Osgood was the main goalie through regular and post season the following year and was the starter the year after that. Unless my memory is completely shot.
correct

His last season with Detroit, he lost his starting job to Legace half way through the season. But Detroit went with Expirience in the play-offs. They proceded to get stomped on by LA. And Osgood had the audacity to call his teamates out in the media and wonder if they really had what it takes to win.

For 4 seasons Red wings players fielded questions about Osgood and his many gaffes in the play-offs [center ice goals, soft goals]. The first chance Osgood had, he attacked his teamates. When he did that, many realized he was gone. The final nail in his coffin is the rumor that Jeremy Roenick was with in minutes of Signing with Detroit [he confirmed that part of the rumor himself] but asked if Detroit was planning on doing anything about thier goaltending. When they said no, He signed with Philly [roenick got permission to talk to teams early, media in detroit figured it was a forgone conclusion he was going to sign with Detroit] I was just shocked that they had a chance to replace him with Hasek.

but, his last season in detroit was a disaster. Then he was waived, and the Osgood era was over.

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01-08-2004, 06:17 PM
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I'm going to chime in on this...

Some are going to pounce on Osgood's playoff gaffes... but almost EVERY goalie has had playoff gaffes. Roy has had a million of brainfarts in the playoffs, but he's still a top 10 goaltender of all time.

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01-08-2004, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
I'm going to chime in on this...

Some are going to pounce on Osgood's playoff gaffes... but almost EVERY goalie has had playoff gaffes. Roy has had a million of brainfarts in the playoffs, but he's still a top 10 goaltender of all time.
center ice goal in OT?

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01-08-2004, 06:27 PM
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Osgood is one of those guys who just flat out wins. You really aren't sure how, but he manages to get the job done. Not flashy, not highlight reel and you rarely hear anything about him when he's on his game.

However I don't think he'll end up being a HOF. He's one of those guys who was a solid NHL'er and when you think back, "hey that Osgood guy was pretty good", but he was never a top 5 goalie in league IMO.

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