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All-Time Draft #8, Part II

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:22 PM
  #51
MXD
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I have heard about his poor skating before. All that means is a reduced transition game, still effective when puck pinned into the offensive zone.
In fact... I think of Stewart as a kind of a perfect player to play on the power play...

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09-24-2007, 08:24 PM
  #52
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Carbo would be a poor pick in the Jim Robson because elite centres aren't as apparent. But the best defensive centre in the history of the game will have some effect in the Don Cherry division on the productivity of Lemieux, Beliveau, Esposito, Clarke at those times when the team's other centre to date, Trottier, isn't going toe to toe with those opposition greats. And with Kurri in the stable, the penalty kill should help counter some awesome powerplays.
Carbo isn't the best defensive center in the division, let alone of all-time.

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09-24-2007, 08:27 PM
  #53
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Carbo isn't the best defensive center in the division, let alone of all-time.
I have never seen better. Nor has Wayne Gretzky.

So you must be making a judgement across eras, always open to contention.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:28 PM
  #54
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Thanks for making my pick, ES. Cournoyer provides blinding speed, excellent goal-scoring ability and reliable, strong playoff performances. He won a Conn Smythe trophy, 10 Stanley Cups, and was a 4-time all-star.

Cournoyer was one of the great skaters in NHL history. His speed is matched by few, and his amazing acceleration will help the Canadiens' transition game (along with Potvin and Pronovost's breakout passes).

The Roadrunner was a bit small, but he was very muscular and had great lower body strength which made him hard to knock off the puck (i.e., Jagr). "Cournoyer's legs were so muscular that his pants had to be specially tailored to fit his legs".

It would be silly to say that Cournoyer could bring any team 10 Stanley Cups. But he was far more than a secondary player. He led the entire league in playoff scoring in 1973 (winning the Conn Smythe) and was 3rd in the league (1st on the team) in 1971. In 1968 and 1969, he led his team in points once each in the regular season and playoffs, and was 3rd another playoff year, up against teammates like Beliveau.

A little-known fact about Cournoyer is that he was the Habs' captain during their 1977-79 dynasty. His offense was significantly reduced (and he battled injuries), but he took on a more defensive role and provided valuable leadership to a talented but inexperienced club (sort of like what an aging Trottier, Abel and Yzerman did).

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09-24-2007, 08:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I have never seen better. Nor has Wayne Gretzky.
+1. The job he did against Gretzky in the '93 finals was impressive. Patrick Roy gets a lot of credit for that Cup, but it was far from a one-man effort.

Great quote I found on habslegends.blogspot.com ...
Quote:
“There’s a lasting effect on people who learned how to play the game for the [late 80's, early 90's] Montreal Canadiens. There’s the tradition, the winning attitude they had. It carries over wherever they go. It gets in your blood, and it trickles down to everybody around them.” says a certain very talented Dallas Star. “The experience, the values they’ve learned rub off on you. How to be unselfish, to be patient, to play with passion has rubbed off on me.”

While many criticized the Stars for acquiring older veterans, the Stars knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted winners to come into their dressing room and teach their team how to win. Winners who would help the Stars win a championship of their own. Winners like Guy Carbonneau.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:31 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I have never seen better. Nor has Wayne Gretzky.

So you must be making a judgement across eras, always open to contention.
I'll take Clarke over any center of the last 35 years. If the Selke existed earlier, Clarke would have a shelf full of them instead of just the one.

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09-24-2007, 08:33 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by The_Hockey_Guy18 View Post
JFF, who do you see as a better defensive center in the division than Carbo? I think he wins it easily, and is easily a top-3 defensive center of all time.
He sees Bobby Clarke. As an all-round player, Clarke > Carbonneau. But killing a penalty or just shadowing somebody, Carbonneau > Clarke.

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09-24-2007, 08:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
I'll take Clarke over any center of the last 35 years.
Clarke wasn't the shadower Carbo was... It wasn't really his "mission", however.
The most amazing thing about the Habs cup in '93 was one of Carbo's linemate earning line .75 + PPG, while playing with Carbo. Carbo doesn't have a lot of offense, but creating turnovers CAN result in offense.

This said, really a good thing that Keon went before Carbonneau in this draft, something he didn't in the last one.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:40 PM
  #59
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I'm going absolutely mental waiting for my pick!!! Looking for another fast evening.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
  #60
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A great defensvie center doesn't need to be, and ideally is not a "shadow".

Take a look at the even strength goals again numbers for Clarke, just obscenely good.

As for the PK, Clarke and Parent were the reasons the Flyers had no fear committing all the penalties they did.

Clarke's edge in the face-off circle only adds to the advantage.

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09-24-2007, 08:46 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
A great defensvie center doesn't need to be, and ideally is not a "shadow".

Take a look at the even strength goals again numbers for Clarke, just obscenely good.

As for the PK, Clarke and Parent were the reasons the Flyers had no fear committing all the penalties they did.

Clarke's edge in the face-off circle only adds to the advantage.
Clarke wouldn't HAVE an edge in the face-off circle against Carbonneau.

Please bear in mind that we're comparing a 20ish player in Clarke and a 120ish player in Carbonneau. Clarke's obviously better, and can stand up against Lemieux or Beliveau (mostly) on the first line. Clarke, as an all-around player, is better than Carbonneau, but as long as Carbo stays in his lane and just is what he is -- a phenomenal penalty-killer, checker, shutdown center, there aren't any who are better.

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09-24-2007, 08:46 PM
  #62
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Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.

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09-24-2007, 08:51 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Clarke wouldn't HAVE an edge in the face-off circle against Carbonneau.
Clake has the edge in the face-off circle against anyone he lines up against.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:52 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.
First lines with chemistry are hard to beat. Only problem is size ... the Bentleys weighed 300 lbs together, and there are a lot of defensemen who can punish them for it.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Clake has the edge in the face-off circle against anyone he lines up against.
Dave Keon begs to differ.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:57 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
First lines with chemistry are hard to beat. Only problem is size ... the Bentleys weighed 300 lbs together, and there are a lot of defensemen who can punish them for it.
This is why Neely is a very important selection for them... I do not have a VERY HIGH opinion of the player himself -- one of the most overated ever, I might add, when you look at his whole career -- but in this setup, he could be great. Many D's will have their hands full with Neely, and many 1st line C's just don't have the defensive skillset and the speed to cover Bentley (of course, this isn't a problem we have in Sherbrooke ).

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:00 PM
  #67
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This is why Neely is a very important selection for them... I do not have a VERY HIGH opinion of the player himself -- one of the most overated ever, I might add, when you look at his whole career -- but in this setup, he could be great. Many D's will have their hands full with Neely, and many 1st line C's just don't have the defensive skillset and the speed to cover Bentley (of course, this isn't a problem we have in Sherbrooke ).
Actually, this is the first draft that Neely didn't go in the top 100...

Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

Four-time all-star. Fourth in career playoff goals-per-game. Defined the NHL power forward role. No way the guy is overrated.

From the "it's not a coincidence" file, the only times the Bruins have beaten the Habs in the playoffs in the last 59 years were when Neely was a player in the organization.

Outside of Howe and Richard, there isn't a better RW in the draft for the Bentley's than Cam Neely.

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:04 PM
  #68
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Many D's will have their hands full with Neely, and many 1st line C's just don't have the defensive skillset and the speed to cover Bentley
Yes, many. ... But not all.

Gilmour and Stevens, or Gatsby and Lindros,... one of the duo neutralizes Neely, one clocks a Bentley. Heads up!

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:06 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Yes, many. ... But not all.

Gilmour and Stevens, or Gatsby and Lindros,... one of the duo neutralizes Neely, one clocks a Bentley. Heads up!
... or somebody just drafts a certain Swedish defenseman ...

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09-24-2007, 09:07 PM
  #70
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Actually, this is the first draft that Neely didn't go in the top 100...

Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

Four-time all-star. Fourth in career playoff goals-per-game. Defined the NHL power forward role. No way the guy is overrated.
Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.

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09-24-2007, 09:07 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
First lines with chemistry are hard to beat. Only problem is size ... the Bentleys weighed 300 lbs together, and there are a lot of defensemen who can punish them for it.
Do we really care much about size in this draft though? Everyone is big now and practically everyone was small back then. Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers? besides, we're more concerned about their individual skills and accomplishments, no?

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:08 PM
  #72
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... or somebody just drafts a certain Swedish defenseman ...
yeah... but it took seven years before that happened

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09-24-2007, 09:09 PM
  #73
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Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.
A young Eric Lindros disagrees.

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09-24-2007, 09:10 PM
  #74
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Do we really care much about size in this draft though? Everyone is big now and practically everyone was small back then. Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers? besides, we're more concerned about their individual skills and accomplishments, no?
It's not fair to say Gordie Howe gets to physically pound the Bentleys when Larry Robinson and Chris Pronger don't.

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:11 PM
  #75
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Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.
I think what he did in 1993-94 qualifies him as a top-10 player in the league, even when you consider he didn't play in almost 30 games.

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