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All-Time Draft #8, Part II

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:11 PM
  #76
God Bless Canada
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.
That's like saying Jari Kurri was never the best player on his team. I don't care if Neely was never the best on his team, when you play your prime with one of the top 10-12 players ever (and one of the greatest models of consistency ever), you're not going to be the best player on your team. That's a basic, common sense concept.

I'd say he was a top 10 player in 1989-90 and 1990-91 (especially when you take playoffs into consideration). An all-star in both those years. Would have likely been a Hart finalist in 1993-94 if his season wasn't cut short.

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09-24-2007, 08:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers?
Of course! That's what makes your 6'1 Nels Stewart a monster. Size and strength is relative to their peers AND all time, just like any other dimension to the game. Many factors to be weighed. No set formula.

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09-24-2007, 08:16 PM
  #78
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.
About bloody time he was selected, I kept having to hold my tongue when talking about forwards.

Good tactic getting Neely to protect them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Clake has the edge in the face-off circle against anyone he lines up against.
Nels Stewart and Ted Kennedy are better.

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09-24-2007, 08:20 PM
  #79
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Actually, this is the first draft that Neely didn't go in the top 100...

Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

Four-time all-star. Fourth in career playoff goals-per-game. Defined the NHL power forward role. No way the guy is overrated.

From the "it's not a coincidence" file, the only times the Bruins have beaten the Habs in the playoffs in the last 59 years were when Neely was a player in the organization.

Outside of Howe and Richard, there isn't a better RW in the draft for the Bentley's than Cam Neely.
I know this... And I know that stats alone cannot measure a player accomplishment. But when you look at Neely's career, and stats, and the era he played in, he really comes up short. He had quite a peak value as far as stats are concerned, and was always intimidating on the ice as soon as he joined the Bruins.It's kind of a pity for him that his career was shorter than it should have been, as I think he would have been a top performer in the Dead Puck Era because the guy was indeed very hard to stop, even he would have been a little post-peak as far as skills are concerned. If that's the first time he's drafted past top-100, that's indeed the first time he's drafted where he should, cause frankly, he just doesn't belong when you look at his career as a whole. And I don't even take the (no)Cup argument into consideration. As a support player (for the Bentley's) he's a great pick, likely the best RW for the Bentley's (I think of someone else less "expansive" who could have done the exact same job) -- but for a top main scoring threat, he remains a question mark to me.

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09-24-2007, 08:25 PM
  #80
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Ted Kennedy was better than Clarke in the circle...there's a couple of undrafted guys that are/were better too.

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09-24-2007, 08:25 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.
To be honest with this statement, at least add that, when looking at an all-time perspective, that there's only 10 (plus 5 or 6 being discutable) players who were better than Ray Bourque... And only three of its contemporaries. (I consider Roy a better player than Bourque, if they can somehow be compared...)

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:26 PM
  #82
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Do we really care much about size in this draft though? Everyone is big now and practically everyone was small back then. Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers? besides, we're more concerned about their individual skills and accomplishments, no?
I've always been in favour of using a player's "adjusted" size, so to speak. Doug Bentley would still be one of the lightest players in the league today, but, due to weight training, nutrition, etc., he'd be more like 160-170 lbs instead of 145. Eddie Shore would be 210-220 lbs, maybe more, instead of 194.

This still lets huge players like Pronger and Robinson push around truly small players like Bentley or Joliat, so modern players aren't penalized. It also gives the Shores and L. Conachers the raw force necessary to shut down the Neelys and Shanahans, which sounds right to me.

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09-24-2007, 08:27 PM
  #83
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[QUOTE=Nalyd Psycho;10522789]About bloody time he was selected, I kept having to hold my tongue when talking about forwards.

Good tactic getting Neely to protect them.



We got Neely to protect Max and score an obscene amount of goals off of his feeds. We never dreamed in a million years Doug would fall to this round!

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09-24-2007, 08:34 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
I've always been in favour of using a player's "adjusted" size, so to speak. Doug Bentley would still be one of the lightest players in the league today, but, due to weight training, nutrition, etc., he'd be more like 160-170 lbs instead of 145. Eddie Shore would be 210-220 lbs, maybe more, instead of 194.

This still lets huge players like Pronger and Robinson push around truly small players like Bentley or Joliat, so modern players aren't penalized. It also gives the Shores and L. Conachers the raw force necessary to shut down the Neelys and Shanahans, which sounds right to me.
I'm tempted to add : don't build team around size though. Last time I had Mahovlich (huge for his time, only Béliveau taller and wasn't bigger, oh...with also some other dude undrafted yet but easy to figure out), Apps (6'1 195 for a 1910-born man makes him a 6'4 225 or so today, and you can safely add 5 pounds of training), plus some other big, big guys unselected yet. My Top-9, if we adjust, was roughly 6'2 215-220 lbs, And this was including the smallish Boris Mikhailov... In fact, the actual size of my 2nd line was roughly 6'3 220, and no player on it played past 1990. . I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size... When Cournoyer and H.Richard and Mikhailov were hit, they just wouldn't go down...(granted, Mikhailov wasn't hit THAT often, though)

Oh... And I didn't fare so well in the last draft. Which is why my team is about the exact opposite of last draft, with my C's averaging 5'7 - 160 so far.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:36 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size...

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:40 PM
  #86
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I agree on size, don't overly number crunch, guys who were small in there day are small, average is average, big is big and giant is giant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
We got Neely to protect Max and score an obscene amount of goals off of his feeds. We never dreamed in a million years Doug would fall to this round!
Still frees you up to draft a skilled LW, rather than worrying about size issues. But you came up stellar with your luck. By the late 4th, every team that passed on Doug I was stunned with, unless they needed defense or goal.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'm tempted to add : don't build team around size though. Last time I had Mahovlich (huge for his time, only Béliveau taller and wasn't bigger, oh...with also some other dude undrafted yet but easy to figure out), Apps (6'1 195 for a 1910-born man makes him a 6'4 225 or so today, and you can safely add 5 pounds of training), plus some other big, big guys unselected yet. My Top-9, if we adjust, was roughly 6'2 220 lbs... And this was including the smallish Boris Mikhailov. I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size... When Cournoyer and H.Richard and Mikhailov were hit, they just wouldn't go down...(granted, Mikhailov wasn't hit THAT often, though)

Oh... And I didn't fare so well in the last draft. Which is why my team is about the exact opposite of last draft.
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, size is very far down the list in terms of importance in an ATD. (For proof, see Pitseleh's winning team, it must have been one of the smallest group of forwards ever drafted). But it is one factor that deserves consideration, among many.

I also agree tenacity is more important than size. I won't elaborate now since most of the players I'm thinking of are undrafted.

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09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
  #88
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I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size...
Which is the knock against both Bentley's... they were notorious for their well lack of grit as well as their lack of tenacity especially with regards to injuries...

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:43 PM
  #89
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Oh... and this comes off late. Mikhailov was picked where he should (as in, AHEAD of Cam Neely). Good job Wisent, even if this pick comes off as unsurprising to say the least, a bit like JFF drafting Clarke. He's the best not in the HHOF.

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09-24-2007, 08:43 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, size is very far down the list in terms of importance in an ATD. (For proof, see Pitseleh's winning team, it must have been one of the smallest group of forwards ever drafted). But it is one factor that deserves consideration, among many.

I also agree tenacity is more important than size. I won't elaborate now since most of the players I'm thinking of are undrafted.
Yep, my top-9 for the most part was really small. It did have some fierce players as has been mentioned (Lalonde being one of them).

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:49 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, size is very far down the list in terms of importance in an ATD. (For proof, see Pitseleh's winning team, it must have been one of the smallest group of forwards ever drafted). But it is one factor that deserves consideration, among many.

I also agree tenacity is more important than size. I won't elaborate now since most of the players I'm thinking of are undrafted.
Which is why I think Clancy was a steal. Obviously small, but not lacking at all in the grit and tenacity departments.

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Old
09-24-2007, 08:59 PM
  #92
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The Calgary RCAF Mustangs select Alex Delvecchio

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09-24-2007, 09:03 PM
  #93
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The Edmonton Oilers select: Vladimir Konstantinov

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:04 PM
  #94
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Murphy deserves an award for being the fastest picker in the ATD.

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09-24-2007, 09:07 PM
  #95
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Murphy deserves an award for being the fastest picker in the ATD.
NOSE PICKER!!! Yeah..... about that.... I think I left part of me in grade 3.

No but really Konstantinov is one of those what if type picks in my opinion... great player but the alure of the unknown is why he gets picked so high relative to his accomplishments... shame about what happened to him though (obviously).

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09-24-2007, 09:11 PM
  #96
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The Calgary RCAF Mustangs select Alex Delvecchio
Excellent way to anchor a 2nd line.

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Old
09-24-2007, 09:34 PM
  #97
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The Regina Wildhearts are pleased to select four-time stanley cup winner and four-time retroactive Norris Trophy winner George "Buck" Boucher. This gives the Wildhearts an unparalleled one two punch on the blueline with Lidstrom. Can anyone else boast 9 Norrises on their roster?

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...io&list=#photo

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09-24-2007, 09:42 PM
  #98
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The Regina Wildhearts are pleased to select four-time stanley cup winner and four-time retroactive Norris Trophy winner George "Buck" Boucher. This gives the Wildhearts an unparalleled one two punch on the blueline with Lidstrom. Can anyone else boast 9 Norrises on their roster?

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...io&list=#photo
pitseleh has orr, shouldn't be too hard after that.

great pick; we were hoping he would fall further but weren't counting on it. boucher beat out cleghorn and clancy among others those retroactive norris trophies.

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09-24-2007, 09:46 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The Regina Wildhearts are pleased to select four-time stanley cup winner and four-time retroactive Norris Trophy winner George "Buck" Boucher. This gives the Wildhearts an unparalleled one two punch on the blueline with Lidstrom. Can anyone else boast 9 Norrises on their roster?

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...io&list=#photo
If we're counting retroactive Norrises then Pit and Speaker will both end up ahead of 9, as will Reck probably.

And about the unparalleled 1-2 punch: Orr-Conacher, Stevens-Gadsby, Cleghorne-Stewart, Niedermayer-Pronger, and Shore-Reardon are all as good or better IMO.

However, the best 1-2 punch in the draft by quite a wide margin is Dubai's duo of Red Kelly and Brad Park.


Last edited by raleh: 09-24-2007 at 09:53 PM.
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09-24-2007, 09:57 PM
  #100
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If we're counting retroactive Norrises then Pit and Speaker will both end up ahead of 9, as will Reck probably.

And about the unparalleled 1-2 punch: Orr-Conacher, Stevens-Gadsby, Cleghorne-Stewart, Niedermayer-Pronger, and Shore-Reardon are all as good or better IMO.

However, the best 1-2 punch in the draft by quite a wide margin is Dubai's duo of Red Kelly and Brad Park.
Niedermayer-Pronger, with their one norris between them, not a chance.

Orr and anyone as good as Mathieu Schneider or better would be better, so that is more of a 1-1 punch.

Cleghorne-Stewart is fantastic, but not quite there.

Stevens-Gadsby, great players, but with zero norris trophies.... IMO, 9 is more impressive.

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